Exodus 16...Sabbath is tied to manna...it predates the 10 commandments

[metis]

What has Elohim/God made you decide what you are allowed to do on Sunday Sabbath/Rest? For example, are you allowed to Work for Money on the Sabbath Day? Can you watch movies/sport or go to the pub on the Sabbath Day? What restrictions, if any, has Elohim/God Imposed on the Sabbath Day?

That's for me to decide as it's not all cut & dry. Same with you.

A ritual is a ritual, thus not the "end game".

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Yet you still have not expressed your view on what you have decided Elohim/God has told you concerning what is Work on the Sabbath Day.

Jesus said to do good on the Sabbath did he not?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Many Sunday worshipping groups think that the Sabbath was given to the Israelites with the 10 commandments at Sinai.
This is not true…its was actually first spoken to them when God caused the manna to fall on the ground in the desert in Exodus Chapter 16.
Here is the important part of the narrative…

• So Moses told them, “It is the bread that the LORD has given you to eat. 16This is what the LORD has commanded: ‘Each one is to gather as much as he needs. You may take an omerc for each person in your tent.’ ”
• 17So the Israelites did this. Some gathered more, and some less. 18When they measured it by the omer, he who gathered much had no excess, and he who gathered little had no shortfall.d Each one gathered as much as he needed to eat.
• 19Then Moses said to them, “No one may keep any of it until morning.” 20But they did not listen to Moses; some people left part of it until morning, and it became infested with maggots and began to smell. So Moses was angry with them.
• 21Every morning each one gathered as much as was needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away.
• The Sabbath Observed
• (Genesis 2:1–3; Hebrews 4:1–11)
• 22On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much food—two omers per persone —and all the leaders of the congregation came and reported this to Moses. 23He told them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake, and boil what you want to boil. Then set aside whatever remains and keep it until morning.’ ”
• 24So they set it aside until morning as Moses had commanded, and it did not smell or contain any maggots. 25“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a Sabbath to the LORD. Today you will not find anything in the field. 26For six days you may gather, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, it will not be there.”
• 27Yet on the seventh day some of the people went out to gather, but they did not find anything. 28Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep My commandments and instructions? 29Understand that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day He will give you bread for two days. On the seventh day, everyone must stay where he is; no one may leave his place.”

As in the creation accont, the sabbath predates the giving of the law…it ties the two parts of the covenant (Gods eternal moral law) together. Christ called Himself Lord of the Sabbath, indeed he is even known as the Sabbath in the New Testament and this highlights that the Sabbath is directly tied to Salvation. Like the Israelites in the desert, those who did not believe and gather a double portion of manna on the Friday went hungry on the Sabbath.
Christ says He is the bread of life…that is a direct reference (fulfillment actually) to the lesson of the manna given to the Israelites in the desert, and to their salvation.
Modern Christians are often referred to as Spiritual Israel…what was applicable to the Israelites is applicable to modern Christians when they are given Gods laws and should they wish to be saved.

The story of how Israel was instructed not to collect manna on the Sabbath is still just that -- a story about ISRAEL. It is not about the nations. There exists nowhere in the Torah any story where a Gentile was commanded to rest on the Sabbath.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus said to do good on the Sabbath did he not?

This should not be used as an excuse to work. If a life is at stake, then by all means, break the sabbath to save the life. Otherwise, get whatever it is done before the Sabbath starts.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

There exists nowhere in the Torah any story where a Gentile was commanded to rest on the Sabbath.

Can you define the biblical term "spiritual Israel" for everyone here please. once you have done that, then get off your delusional hobby horse and come back to Post Crucifixion reality.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Can you define the biblical term "spiritual Israel" for everyone here please. once you have done that, then get off your delusional hobby horse and come back to Post Crucifixion reality.

There is no such thing in Tanakh as spiritual Israel. It doesn't exist.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

There is no such thing in Tanakh as spiritual Israel. It doesn't exist.

Oh I see.
May I ask...where is your messiah? (Nevi'im Isaiah 9.6)

May I also ask you to explain Melchizzadek...a high priest of the Almighty God who, as far as i am aware, was not jewish and yet Abraham gave tithe to him did he not?

Would you not agree the term spiritual israel refers to those who are saved but are not Israeltes...men such as Melchizadek and that story provides authenticity to the claim by new testaments apostles that gentiles and therefore modern Christians are spiritual Israel?

One of the problems with your view is that your narrative appears to have been at a stand still for more than 2000 years (from about 450b.c)..that lack of fulfillment of the prophecy in isaiah in your bible canon should raise eyebrows surely?

So, what are you waiting for exactly...where is your messiah?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Oh I see.
May I ask...where is your messiah? (Nevi'im Isaiah 9.6)

Isaiah 9:6 is about King Hezekiah. No spiritual Israel is mentioned.

May I also ask you to explain Melchizzadek...a high priest of the Almighty God who, as far as i am aware, was not jewish and yet Abraham gave tithe to him did he not?

Melchizadek was the Gentile priest-king of Salem. He was not part of any spiritual Israel.

Would you not agree the term spiritual israel refers to those who are saved but are not Israeltes...men such as Melchizadek and that story provides authenticity to the claim by new testaments apostles that gentiles and therefore modern Christians are spiritual Israel?

Like I said, the Tanakh mentions no spiritual Israel. I don't really care about what the New Testament says -- that's a Christian scripture, and has nothing to do with me, since I'm not a Christian.

The Tanakh is not concerned with "salvation." That is a Christian idea, found in the Christian New Testament. I find that Christians often mistakenly assume that Jews are similarly interested in getting saved but that we just do it a different way. This is not the case.
When the Tanakh uses the words salvation or saved, it is speaking in a very earthly literal sense, such as David being saved from his enemies, not any sort of spiritual salvation.

One of the problems with your view is that your narrative appears to have been at a stand still for more than 2000 years (from about 450b.c)..that lack of fulfillment of the prophecy in isaiah in your bible canon should raise eyebrows surely?

What prophecy in Isaiah are you talking about? As i said, Isaiah 9:6 was about King Hezekiah and does not mention any spiritual Israel.

So, what are you waiting for exactly...where is your messiah?

The messiah will come during the final age of the earth, an idyllic time known as the Messianic era. Although there are a number of prophecies, the main one he will fulfill is this:
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4).

Since no one has yet fulfilled that prophecy, then we can safely say the messiah has not yet come. When will he come? He could come tomorrow. He could come in a thousand years.

FWIW, the messiah is not a big part of my religion. It's sort of icing on the cake. Judaism concerns itself primarily with ethical living, not end times stuff.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Isaiah 9:6 is about King Hezekiah. No spiritual Israel is mentioned

I'm tempted to.call you a twit...but I shall refrain and instead ask...

In Israelite tradition, would it not be heresy to call a man, that you claim is prophesying Hezekiah, "Mighty God"?

I can only imagine the rendition you follow manipulates the grammar to appear they are separate individuals. Jw clearly got their influence to rewrite the bible from your source.

 

[Ebionite]

The Tanakh is not concerned with "salvation."

It does mention the wound though, and healing is associated with the righteous servant that Christianity typically identifies as Jesus.

From the sole of the foot even unto the head [there is] no soundness in it; [but] wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Isaiah 1:6

When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah [saw] his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
Hosea 5:13

But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
Psalms 35:27

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm tempted to.call you a twit...but I shall refrain and instead ask...

In Israelite tradition, would it not be heresy to call a man, that you claim is prophesying Hezekiah, "Mighty God"?

You have a bad translation. let me assist.
"For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom" which translated means "A wonderful counselor IS the mighty God," "The everlasting Father IS the prince of peace." It is very very common for Jewish names to make these sorts of statements ABOUT God, so it should not surprise you that King Hezekiah has names that make statments about God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It does mention the wound though, and healing is associated with the righteous servant that Christianity typically identifies as Jesus.

From the sole of the foot even unto the head [there is] no soundness in it; [but] wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Isaiah 1:6

When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah [saw] his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
Hosea 5:13

But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
Psalms 35:27

Normally I do not answer posts this long, but I will answer the part which quotes Isaiah 53. This chapter is NOT messianic prophecy. The servant is Israel.

 

[Ebionite]

The servant is Israel.

No, Israel is not referred to as a righteous servant.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, Israel is not referred to as a righteous servant.

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Isaiah 41:8

 

[Ebionite]

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Isaiah 41:8

The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib: [but] Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken YHWH, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
From the sole of the foot even unto the head [there is] no soundness in it; [but] wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Isaiah 1:3-6

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib: [but] Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken YHWH, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
From the sole of the foot even unto the head [there is] no soundness in it; [but] wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Isaiah 1:3-6

Not sure what the significance of your quote is. It would have been nice if you had adressed Isaiah 41:8

 

[Ebionite]

Not sure what the significance of your quote is.

It's support of my position that Israel is not the righteous servant. Isaiah 41:8 is consistent with that.

The righteous servant connects to Israel via Israel's wound.

But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's support of my position that Israel is not the righteous servant. Isaiah 41:8 is consistent with that.

The righteous servant connects to Israel via Israel's wound.

But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5

Your quote didn't even mention a servant. Mine did.

Again, you are now quoting from a passage again that speaks of Israel, not the messiah.

 

[Ebionite]

Your quote didn't even mention a servant.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
Psalms 35:27

 

[AdamjEdgar]

The Tanakh is not concerned with "salvation." That is a Christian idea, found in the Christian New Testament. I find that Christians often mistakenly assume that Jews are similarly interested in getting saved but that we just do it a different way. This is not the case.

Do you not also read the mosaic accounts about creation? Would you not agree that sin enterring into this world, through the deception of Eve, required a restoration.process and that that process is illustrated in the Old Testament Sanctuary service?
Do you not understand wthat the sanctuary service represents...or should I say, directly.explains the redemption process incl atonement for sin?
To a jewish religion follower, what do the sacrifices represent on the day of atonement?

If you say, the messiah only.comes ro setup an earthly kingdom...what happens to all those who have already died in the last 6000 years?