Evil

[EtuMalku]

Sure there is. You can either receive Christ or CHOOSE not to receive him. It's your free will choice. Does God know in advance what you decide? Sure. But foreknowledge isn't determinism. God just knows, that's all. He knows your choices but he doesn't determine them.

You can't be serious? Eternal damnation for not doing 'His' Will (Thy Will Be Done)? Free Will is defined as “the capacity of a conscious mind to make decisions and choices without any external constraints or coercion.”

Sure, god gave you free will . . . just as long as it's his will being done.

Anyway, "the American physiologist Benjamin Libet demonstrated in the 1980s that we have no free will. It was already known that electrical activity builds up in a person’s brain before she, for example, moves her hand; Libet showed that this buildup occurs before the person consciously makes a decision to move. The conscious experience of deciding to act, which we usually associate with free will, appears to be an add-on, a post hoc reconstruction of events that occurs after the brain has already set the act in motion."

"The contemporary scientific image of human behavior is one of neurons firing, causing other neurons to fire, causing our thoughts and deeds, in an unbroken chain that stretches back to our birth and beyond. In principle, we are therefore completely predictable."
____________________________________________________________
There’s No Such Thing as Free Will | Richard Dawkins Foundation

 

[EtuMalku]

I only included the "ifs" for the sake of those such as yourself who don't know God and the reality of the eternal just beyond our physical sight. Religion is not real, but I the Creator is right there for anyone to find.

"I the Creator" . . . would you elaborate on that please?

 

[Jos]

I believe allowing the freedom of choice means that the option to choose wrong exists, therefore the possibility of moral evil. Satan is an excellent example of this,as he was created a beautiful angel in a perfect environment, yet iniquity arose from within himself, his own mind and thoughts. He chose to go against the goodness of God. Yes, the scriptures state that believers will reach final perfection in heaven, but again that is a choice the believer makes and desires. The scriptures state that God is Love and just as a true love relationship cannot be one-sided or forced, I don't believe a true goodness can be forced, but must be freely chosen and accepted. And yes, I would say God is upset when people choose sin and separation from Him because we were created to exist in an eternal loving relationship with Him.

Can God choose to do evil? And was Satan created perfect? your post didn't make that clear... also if Satan was created in a perfect environment then He wouldn't have wanted anything let alone sin since all His desires would be perfectly met. So maybe heaven wasn't a perfect environment.

 

[Spartan]

You can't be serious? Eternal damnation for not doing 'His' Will (Thy Will Be Done)? Free Will is defined as “the capacity of a conscious mind to make decisions and choices without any external constraints or coercion.”

Sure, god gave you free will . . . just as long as it's his will being done.

Anyway, "the American physiologist Benjamin Libet demonstrated in the 1980s that we have no free will. It was already known that electrical activity builds up in a person’s brain before she, for example, moves her hand; Libet showed that this buildup occurs before the person consciously makes a decision to move. The conscious experience of deciding to act, which we usually associate with free will, appears to be an add-on, a post hoc reconstruction of events that occurs after the brain has already set the act in motion."

"The contemporary scientific image of human behavior is one of neurons firing, causing other neurons to fire, causing our thoughts and deeds, in an unbroken chain that stretches back to our birth and beyond. In principle, we are therefore completely predictable."
____________________________________________________________
There’s No Such Thing as Free Will | Richard Dawkins Foundation

Sorry, not buying your "no free will."

"For whom he FOREKNEW, he also predestined . . . " - Romans 8:29

Foreknowledge (of free will choices) came first.

They were predestined in the sense that once God saw the free will choices of men, he then set the world in motion and allowed things to play out.

God also said, "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." - Deuteronomy 30:19

p.s. Try telling a women's libber they have no free will to make their own choices.

 

[EtuMalku]

Sorry, not buying your "no free will."

"For whom he FOREKNEW, he also predestined . . . " - Romans 8:29

Foreknowledge (of free will choices) came first.

They were predestined in the sense that once God saw the free will choices of men, he then set the world in motion and allowed things to play out.

God also said, "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." - Deuteronomy 30:19

p.s. Try telling a women's libber they have no free will to make their own choices.

Quoting from the bible in order to verify the bible is a big ol' circular logic No No . . .

Are you confusing “free will” with agency, that is, the ability to make decisions, especially those that involve human-level “self-control” and response to socially constructed rules? Free Will is consciously making choices about what to do in the absence of external coercion, and accepting responsibility for one’s actions.

Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that the man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand how he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.… God's omniscience is incompatible with God having free will. If all events that happen are pre-ordained, or/and predestined to happen, by God, or that they are destined to occur given God's omniscience . . . then it stands to reason there is no such thing as free will.

“Free will is an illusion. Our wills are simply not of our own making. Thoughts and intentions emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control.” - Sam Harris

 

[pearl]

What exactly do you mean? Could you elaborate a little?

Think of a world devoid of all living things. Could anything in a lifeless universe be either good or evil?
If we identity something as evil its only in its relation to life. Life is the prior condition for evil, an epiphenomenon, so scholars put it. Life is the prior condition for evil.

 

[Spartan]

Quoting from the bible in order to verify the bible is a big ol' circular logic No No . . .

There's no circular logic. The New Testament in the 1st century wasn't "the Bible." It was some two dozen or so separate manuscripts by a number of different authors, floating around different locales at different times. That's multiple, independent confirmations, not circular reasoning.

Are you confusing “free will” with agency, that is, the ability to make decisions, especially those that involve human-level “self-control” and response to socially constructed rules? Free Will is consciously making choices about what to do in the absence of external coercion, and accepting responsibility for one’s actions.

Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that the man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand how he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.… God's omniscience is incompatible with God having free will. If all events that happen are pre-ordained, or/and predestined to happen, by God, or that they are destined to occur given God's omniscience . . . then it stands to reason there is no such thing as free will.

“Free will is an illusion. Our wills are simply not of our own making. Thoughts and intentions emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control.” - Sam Harris

Nope. You keep saying everything is pre-ordained. It's not. I've already explained that foreknowledge is not determinism. See my prior post on that.

 

[Milton Platt]

Reference: Isaiah 45:7

I researched that once, and one of the alternative words in Strong's Concordance for evil (if I recall correctly) was 'calamity'.

God designed blessings and curses (note Deuteronomy chapter 28), as well as sowing and reaping, etc. - polar opposites. Those were designed to deal with man's free will choices to do good or evil. If men do good they are normally blessed, but if they do evil then they will reap evil. And if men reap evil, it's not necessarily God just being mean. Suffering the consequences of evil acts can be very humbling to an individual, and even lead that individual to repentance and salvation. That's the cycle that we see in the Book of Judges. When Israel did evil, they were punished. Then, after a time of suffering, they repented and called out to God for deliverance, and God sent them deliverers. So that's what Isaiah 45:7 was really talking about when it said that God created evil.

So are you saying that if a calamity happens to a person, it isn't evil, but good?

ca·lam·i·ty
/kəˈlamədē/
noun

1. an event causing great and often sudden damage or distress; a disaster.
   "the journey had led to calamity and ruin"

 

[InChrist]

"I the Creator" . . . would you elaborate on that please?

Yes, I made a grammatical error. Should be just "the Creator".

 

[InChrist]

Can God choose to do evil? And was Satan created perfect? your post didn't make that clear... also if Satan was created in a perfect environment then He wouldn't have wanted anything let alone sin since all His desires would be perfectly met. So maybe heaven wasn't a perfect environment.

I don't believe God can choose evil, as it would be contrary to His innate goodness and His perfectly good Character. Satan, originally Lucifer, meaning light, was not satisfied with who he was and all he had. According to the scriptures he wanted to elevate himself to God's position, to be God...which was impossible, but does show the deranged thinking that wrong thoughts and aspirations can lead to.

 

[Jos]

I don't believe God can choose evil

So why couldn't God create us like Himself without the ability to choose evil? Can God stop loving us if He wanted to? And you still didn't answer if Satan was created perfect or not... was He or was He not created perfect? And again if heaven was a perfect environment then Satan wouldn't have had any desire to do evil.

 

[EtuMalku]

Reference: Isaiah 45:7

I researched that once, and one of the alternative words in Strong's Concordance for evil (if I recall correctly) was 'calamity'.

God designed blessings and curses (note Deuteronomy chapter 28), as well as sowing and reaping, etc. - polar opposites. Those were designed to deal with man's free will choices to do good or evil. If men do good they are normally blessed, but if they do evil then they will reap evil. And if men reap evil, it's not necessarily God just being mean. Suffering the consequences of evil acts can be very humbling to an individual, and even lead that individual to repentance and salvation. That's the cycle that we see in the Book of Judges. When Israel did evil, they were punished. Then, after a time of suffering, they repented and called out to God for deliverance, and God sent them deliverers. So that's what Isaiah 45:7 was really talking about when it said that God created evil.

First, good & evil are subjective terms. One man's good is another man's evil. Secondly, if there are rewards and punishments for doing things, according to god, then there is no free will because the definition of free will is; consciously making choices about what to do in the absence of external coercion and accepting responsibility for one’s actions.

 

[ManSinha]

Indeed I have, otherwise I wouldn't make such a statement.

And where is your reasoning about classifying it as "evil"?

 

[osgart]

We have to eat animals to survive. That is dastardly thing to have to do. Is it evil? Its all in the nature of intention.

Evil is in the heart of intentions, its a desire and love for harming and destroying innocence.

Innocence is simply a heart that is incapable of malice, and cruelty and only capable of charity and justice. If one is incapable of malice and cruelty then they are the character of goodness.

Goodness is that which gives and promotes life of virtues. Virtues are qualities of being that cause love and compassion in truth. Truth is innocent character. Anything or anyone enemy to that is evil.

It is amazing how so many people can not comprehend good and evil, innocence vs.guilt as a nature of being.

Life is a giver of innocent life.
Evil is a taker of innocent life. The nature of intent is paramount in understanding good and evil.

Just because it is not understood does not mean that good and evil do not exist.

Evil is like a cloak and dagger, it does not want to be found out. And it will lie about everything to conceal intentions. It will use deceitful philosophies and try to appeal and tempt others.

Goodness only desires to give life to innocent people.

Its amazing i could use words all day and still many people are blind to good and evil. It makes you wonder if they are trying to fool everybody that they dont understand it. Or perhaps they are fooling themselves.

 

[Milton Platt]

Sure there is. You can either receive Christ or CHOOSE not to receive him. It's your free will choice. Does God know in advance what you decide? Sure. But foreknowledge isn't determinism. God just knows, that's all. He knows your choices but he doesn't determine them.

So he has no control, then? You cannot have foreknowledge without having determinism.
If he knows the outcome of all choices, then they are not choices, as one can only make the choice he has already foreseen. And free will is B.S. He has apparently interfered with free will many times, according to the Bible. In the case of a child rapist, whose free will is more important? The free will of the child or the free will of the rapist? Apparently, it's the rapist's free will that supersedes the free will of his victim.

 

[EtuMalku]

And where is your reasoning about classifying it as "evil"?

'It'?

 

[ManSinha]

'It'?

 

[InChrist]

So why couldn't God create us like Himself without the ability to choose evil? Can God stop loving us if He wanted to? And you still didn't answer if Satan was created perfect or not... was He or was He not created perfect? And again if heaven was a perfect environment then Satan wouldn't have had any desire to do evil.

I would say that God could not create us to be exactly like Himself because ...there is only one Being who is God. God just can't create other Gods. We are human beings, finite creatures, God is the One God Being, the infinite, eternal Creator. I am not sure, but I suppose God can stop loving those who become so wicked there is no hope of turning back or repentance.
Only God is perfect, so any created being would be less than God and less than perfect. The scriptures state that Lucifer(satan) had the desire to exalt himself and take God's place, which is not only impossible, a corruption of truth and reality, but evil.

 

[ManSinha]

I would say that God could not create us to be exactly like Himself because ...there is only one Being who is God. God just can't create other Gods. We are human beings, finite creatures, God is the One God Being, the infinite, eternal Creator. I am not sure, but I suppose God can stop loving those who become so wicked there is no hope of turning back or repentance.
Only God is perfect, so any created being would be less than God and less than perfect. The scriptures state that Lucifer(satan) had the desire to exalt himself and take God's place, which is not only impossible, a corruption of truth and reality, but evil.

Did you read what you wrote before you hit the post button? You just put a limitation on god. That absolutely totally and completely negates the omnipotent adjective. That is where the entire argument collapses in my opinion.

Let us see - what are some of the other things he cannot do

- cannot lie
- cannot create evil etc etc

Sure doesn't sound omnipotent to me

 

[InChrist]

View attachment 28425

Suppose God is not "imposing" His will, but asking us to enter into His will, His love, His goodness, His beauty,and all the blessings He desires to bestow upon us. That is the theme I see and not only that, but also that we were created to exist in His love and nothing else will ever satisfy.