Evil

[ManSinha]

Suppose God is not "imposing" His will, but asking us to enter into His will, His love, His goodness, His beauty,and all the blessings He desires to bestow upon us. That is the theme I see and not only that, but also that we were created to exist in His love and nothing else will ever satisfy.

Now we are getting somewhere - but if some entity asks - then the ask-ee is free to politely decline - blessings beauty immortality notwithstanding

I can also bring myself to live with the last statement

But - with one very important difference -

There is absolutely no "or else......" associated with it

No promises / threats of eternal damnation or torture or eternal death - no fear mongering or choosing favorites for that matter - IOW no "My people" OR "only those who worship me"

 

[InChrist]

Did you read what you wrote before you hit the post button? You just put a limitation on god. That absolutely totally and completely negates the omnipotent adjective. That is where the entire argument collapses in my opinion.

Let us see - what are some of the other things he cannot do

- cannot lie
- cannot create evil etc etc

Sure doesn't sound omnipotent to me

Yes, I know what I wrote. God is the only God. It is not a limitation. Just a fact.

There are plenty of things the One Creator cannot do. Rather than negate His omnipotence I think this actually displays God for the unique Being He is. You may like to read the linked article.

"There is much that God cannot do, not in spite of who He is, but because of who He is. Even Augustine, described as the first of the early so-called Church Fathers who "taught the absolute sovereignty of God," declared, "Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent."
What a Sovereign God Cannot Do

 

[InChrist]

Now we are getting somewhere - but if some entity asks - then the ask-ee is free to politely decline - blessings beauty immortality notwithstanding

I can also bring myself to live with the last statement

View attachment 28426

But - with one very important difference -

There is absolutely no "or else......" associated with it

No promises / threats of eternal damnation or torture or eternal death - no fear mongering or choosing favorites for that matter - IOW no "My people"

View attachment 28427

I don't see it so much as a matter of "or else", as simply the reality of the situation. If God is Life, then existence outside of God is death and torment (the Bible does not use the word torture).

 

[ManSinha]

I don't see it so much as a matter of "or else", as simply the reality of the situation. If God is Life, then existence outside of God is death and torment (the Bible does not use the word torture).

I shall just leave you with another quote -

At least to me per this discussion - you seem to be open minded - you should consider making a comparative study of some of the dharmic teachings

 

[InChrist]

I shall just leave you with another quote -

View attachment 28428

At least to me per this discussion - you seem to be open minded - you should consider making a comparative study of some of the dharmic teachings - if only to widen your horizon

Thank you. Those quotes are interesting, especially the second one.

I think the God of the Bible who came in the Person of Jesus, reaching down to us, desires us to dwell in Him, in His love and joy for eternity. Outside of His love is only emptiness and despair...something like that second quote you posted.

Have a good night and thanks for the conversation.

 

[Deeje]

What is evil?

In a world where opposites must naturally exist, Evil exists as an equal opposite of Good.

What can you name in your own experience that has no opposite?

Up....down....in...out...before...after....black...white...positive...negative.....light....dark....

List of Complete Opposites – ListAfterList

Not surprisingly though, the Creator placed "the knowledge of good and evil" in his own jurisdiction. He was to be the arbiter of the difference.....since it is apparent that humans cannot always tell the difference.

 

[RESOLUTION]

They weren't created perfect... if they were created perfect, they wouldn't have sinned.

So why are you not a believer?
When innocent they did not know right from wrong.
Like you and I, they were not robots or programmed.
They had understanding of what they could and could not do.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They had the tree of life they could eat freely from and they would live forever.
But they understood what it meant to be told not to eat from that tree and were perfect because they knew not evil from good.
We see being perfect does not mean you make the right decisions. God gave them free will they chose to disobey according to the bible.

 

[RESOLUTION]

i'd say the reason is because humans choose harmful, destructive behavior which is outside of God's perfect will and love resutlting in evil.

So where does you choosing Christ come from choosing harmful, destructive behaviour?

In James
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Cain slew Abel and this was an evil act but it was his jealousy which caused this. The truth is right and wrong is know by every person. You choose whether you do right or wrong.
But not everything is straightforward. If your neighbour turns violent and you see him taking a knife to his family to kill them. Upon seeing him wound one person and you have a gun. Do you shoot him to save them or do you watch his act of evil commence? Does harming him become a sinful action when saving the lives of others?

Police men in the line of duty shoot and kill. Is that evil and harmful destructive behaviour? I think it needs more consideration and explanation.

 

[Jos]

I would say that God could not create us to be exactly like Himself because ...there is only one Being who is God.

So creating someone perfect would be like creating God? Why? When I say perfect here, I'm referring to moral perfection only. I don't get how creating a morally perfect being is somehow tantamount to creating a God.

I am not sure, but I suppose God can stop loving those who become so wicked there is no hope of turning back or repentance.

So for the most part, God can't control His love for humans? He has to love them no matter what?

The scriptures state that Lucifer(satan) had the desire to exalt himself and take God's place, which is not only impossible, a corruption of truth and reality, but evil.

But you said He was created in a perfect environment so this makes no sense. It makes no sense for any evil to arise in Satan since He would have had all desires completely met in heaven. Evil could not have come from Satan if He really was in a perfect environment.

 

[Jos]

So why are you not a believer?

There are many reasons

We see being perfect does not mean you make the right decisions

Being morally perfect would mean that you always make the right decisions.

But they understood what it meant to be told not to eat from that tree and were perfect because they knew not evil from good.

Right, since they didn't know good from evil as yet, they wouldn't have known that eating from the tree of life was good and that eating from the other tree was a bad thing to do.

God gave them free will they chose to disobey according to the bible.

They had free will but they wouldn't have known that it was wrong to disobey since they didn't have knowledge of good and evil as yet.

 

[EtuMalku]

View attachment 28425

Come on, don't you understand what I am asking? There are several East Asian religions, and multiple facets of most of them, which one(s) are you asking about?

 

[Spartan]

So he has no control, then? You cannot have foreknowledge without having determinism.
If he knows the outcome of all choices, then they are not choices, as one can only make the choice he has already foreseen. And free will is B.S. He has apparently interfered with free will many times, according to the Bible. In the case of a child rapist, whose free will is more important? The free will of the child or the free will of the rapist? Apparently, it's the rapist's free will that supersedes the free will of his victim.

You can have foreknowledge without determinism. Once again, God knows your choices, but he doesn't make those choices for you. Very simple.

 

[Spartan]

First, good & evil are subjective terms. One man's good is another man's evil.

Not with God. He has his own specific guidelines on good and evil. And what many men call good, God calls evil.

Secondly, if there are rewards and punishments for doing things, according to god, then there is no free will because the definition of free will is; consciously making choices about what to do in the absence of external coercion and accepting responsibility for one’s actions.

That's not mankind as we know it. Men often make bad choices even knowing they can get hung for them.

 

[Spartan]

So are you saying that if a calamity happens to a person, it isn't evil, but good?

ca·lam·i·ty
/kəˈlamədē/
noun

1. an event causing great and often sudden damage or distress; a disaster.
   "the journey had led to calamity and ruin"

Being cast into hell is a calamity that is not good for a person. But a calamity that humbles a man so he turns to repentance and God is a good thing.

 

[ManSinha]

Come on, don't you understand what I am asking? There are several East Asian religions, and multiple facets of most of them, which one(s) are you asking about?

I am referring to the astika schools of Hindu Yoga Philosophy

 

[EtuMalku]

I am referring to the astika schools of Hindu Yoga Philosophy

Since Hinduism in general does not posit an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator, the ideal of Evil becomes complex if not non-existent.

I'd want to ask you your understanding of the End-Goal in Hinduism, before I can continue.

 

[ManSinha]

Since Hinduism in general does not posit an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator, the ideal of Evil becomes complex if not non-existent.

I'd want to ask you your understanding of the End-Goal in Hinduism, before I can continue.

Per my understanding - that is to merge with the Light / One Truth or moksha as it is called in the vernacular

And some (but not all) posit that in the true term of "try and try again until one succeeds" - until that point one simply gets a do over (rebirth)

 

[EtuMalku]

Per my understanding - that is to merge with the Light / One Truth or moksha as it is called in the vernacular

And some (but not all) posit that in the true term of "try and try again until one succeeds" - until that point one simply gets a do over (rebirth)

Thank you. In general I have no qualms with, nor do I find Advaita Vedanta an Evil as long as there is no form of 'atoning' 'becoming one' with some supposed external deity or energy. That Puruṣārtha is sought for apotheosis.

 

[Milton Platt]

Being cast into hell is a calamity that is not good for a person. But a calamity that humbles a man so he turns to repentance and God is a good thing.

Calamities happen to everyone. Even if there was a positive outcome down the road in some cases, it is still a calamity and a calamity is synonymous with evil.

 

[Milton Platt]

You can have foreknowledge without determinism. Once again, God knows your choices, but he doesn't make those choices for you. Very simple.

Nonetheless, if the choices are known in advance, whether god decided them or just knew of them, they were set in stone.