Evidence

[muhammad_isa]

Evidence is useful only when considered in a
cogent argument that addresses all evidence.

True..

 

[Revoltingest]

Not always .. some people have a conscience.

An honest person having a conscience
is what matters....not the oath sworn,
whether to a god or anything else.

Indeed, it would smack of dishonesty
to swear an oath to a god one doesn't
believe exists.

It makes no sense to ask an atheist to swear on the Bible, quite obviously.

Christians swearing an oath to God
can still lie.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes, they do.
..and atheists believe their nonsense in a similar fashion.

Oh, don't you know that atheists believe their stuff since there is no evidence for God?
Maybe you have not been paying enough attention.

And once again, we see that neither of you has any concept of what constitutes evidence that would inspire belief, nor that NOT believing is not a form of believing. I find this quite incredible, since I'm guessing that neither of you would suppose that NOT collecting stamps is a form of stamp collecting.

Do either of you know why you do not believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn? I can tell you. It's because nobody has presented you with anything that even vaguely resembled a reason you should even consider the matter.

Do yourselves a favour, and try to understand the words you are using. It will make your posts more coherent.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do either of you know why you do not believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

Did this Pink Unicorn create and maintain the universe?
Well, I can answer that .. no .. a pink Unicorn, if it exists, must be a creature. A creature did not create .. it is part of the creation.

oh .. and if it's invisible, then how can it be pink?

What sort of nonsense is this?
Why would you rather talk about pink unicorns rather than God?
It would seem that many people prefer to pretend that the Bible and Qur'an do not exist .. or that the people who believe them are somehow gullible in thinking that there is more to life than being born and dying.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I cannot speak for God, but I don't really think God cares about the whiny babies who think that are so important that they deserve a personal message from God, the Creator of the universe. God communicated to humans and most people are happy with the way God has communicated, so if atheists don't like the way that God communicated it is tough luck for them.

God communicated to some "special" humans, somewhere, sometime. I'm sure you can see how unfair that is to all those non-special people out there. I'm sure some almighty God might be able to figure that out as well.

And if said God supposedly loves us as a parent does, then yes, absolutely people should be whining if their parents are neglecting them.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Did this Pink Unicorn create and maintain the universe?
Well, I can answer that .. no .. a pink Unicorn, if it exists, must be a creature. A creature did not create .. it is part of the creation.

oh .. and if it's invisible, then how can it be pink?

What sort of nonsense is this?
Why would you rather talk about pink unicorns rather than God?
It would seem that many people prefer to pretend that the Bible and Qur'an do not exist .. or that the people who believe them are somehow gullible in thinking that there is more to life than being born and dying.

The unicorn told us it is pink, duh.


So you think the evidence for God(s) are the existence of the Bible and the Qu'ran?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you think the evidence for God(s) are the existence of the Bible and the Qu'ran?

I think that it is intuitive that our existence is not just some gigantic coincidence .. I think it is not difficult to believe that our conduct in this life has more meaning than just "death and oblivion".

The existence of the Bible and Qur'an confirms this, and we have no reason not to believe that God sent His messengers to the populated nations of old in a similar manner.

I have no idea how or when Adam first appeared on earth, and don't need to know.
I am satisfied that Almighty God is the Evolver from naught .. and He does what He wills.

 

[Alien826]

It just had better not be an alcoholic drink, since that is against Baha'i Laws.

And I was soooo close to converting!

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think that it is intuitive that our existence is not just some gigantic coincidence .. I think it is not difficult to believe that our conduct in this life has more meaning than just "death and oblivion".

So what you've got is an argument from personal incredulity. Not very convincing.

The existence of the Bible and Qur'an confirms this, and we have no reason not to believe that God sent His messengers to the populated nations of old in a similar manner.

How? How do books that contradict each other confirm that "our existence is not just some gigantic coincidence?"
Does the Rig Veda confirm it too? Does the Book of Mormon confirm it too?

I don't have any reason to believe any God sent any messengers whatsoever. Why do you believe that?

I have no idea how or when Adam first appeared on earth, and don't need to know.

I don't see any reason to think that Adam ever existed in the first place and that the story in the Bible is anything more than that - a story.

I am satisfied that Almighty God is the Evolver from naught .. and He does what He wills.

I know what you believe, as you've certainly told me enough times. I'm trying to figure out why.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

God communicated to some "special" humans, somewhere, sometime. I'm sure you can see how unfair that is to all those non-special people out there. I'm sure some almighty God might be able to figure that out as well.

And if said God supposedly loves us as a parent does, then yes, absolutely people should be whining if their parents are neglecting them.

I must be one of these "non-special" people because I prayed to God for years and pleaded with him to protect me from my adoptive mother, who beat me and abused me. I also prayed and begged him to protect me from my older brother, who would walk by and hit me and threatened to beat me up, and I prayed for his protection from the bullying and harassment I endured at school. But despite my desperation and sincere prayers to this so-called loving and merciful God, I still suffered severe abuse for thirteen and a half years at home, and I endured bullying and harassment throughout the twelve years I was in school. And during the thirty years I was a devout Christian, I was still gullible enough to believe that God would help me because I used to pray to him and ask him to help me better cope with the PTSD and the eating disorder that I developed as a result of all the trauma I suffered while growing up.

I never asked God for deliverance because I was taught earlier on in life that suffering was the "Christian" thing to do because Jesus had allegedly suffered and died for me. Needless to say, my life before I was a devout Christian was a living hell, and my life during the thirty years I was a Christian was a living nightmare. However, my life began to improve gradually after I abandoned my Christian faith and my belief, hope, and trust in the biblical God. And now my life is so much better because I'm content in life and have peace of mind because my mental health and emotional well-being are much better now too. In all honesty, assuming God exists, I don't need or want him in my life. I'm much better off without him. I know that I don't need the biblical God in my life to be a good person.

 

[Alien826]

No, because this is a religious debate, and it is not about "scientific proof" .. it's more about theological determinations.

I would describe what you are doing as "preaching". I don't know how it goes for Muslim worship, but the picture I have in a Christian context is of someone in a pulpit saying something like "You can't escape from God! God knows your thoughts and will judge you for them!". Followed by a chorus of "amen" from the congregation.

Nothing wrong with that in context, but in a debate forum it doesn't add much if anything.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I must be one of these "non-special" people because I prayed to God for years and pleaded with him to protect me from my adoptive mother, who beat me and abused me. I also prayed and begged him to protect me from my older brother, who would walk by and hit me and threatened to beat me up, and I prayed for his protection from the bullying and harassment I endured at school. But despite my desperation and sincere prayers to this so-called loving and merciful God, I still suffered severe abuse for thirteen and a half years at home, and I endured bullying and harassment throughout the twelve years I was in school. And during the thirty years I was a devout Christian, I was still gullible enough to believe that God would help me because I used to pray to him and ask him to help me better cope with the PTSD and the eating disorder that I developed as a result of all the trauma I suffered while growing up.

I never asked God for deliverance because I was taught earlier on in life that suffering was the "Christian" thing to do because Jesus had allegedly suffered and died for me. Needless to say, my life before I was a devout Christian was a living hell, and my life during the thirty years I was a Christian was a living nightmare. However, my life began to improve gradually after I abandoned my Christian faith and my belief, hope, and trust in the biblical God. And now my life is so much better because I'm content in life and have peace of mind because my mental health and emotional well-being are much better now too. In all honesty, assuming God exists, I don't need or want him in my life. I'm much better off without him. I know that I don't need the biblical God in my life to be a good person.

Hear, hear! I'm one of those non-special people too, I guess.

I am so sorry that you had to go through that. My Dad went through something very similar and I saw how his belief that he was taught that there was something wrong with him since he was born. You know, the Christian way, and all!

I'm happy to hear that you are doing well now, and recovering from all the terrible abuse you had to endure. Nobody should have to go through that. I've been trying to recover from trauma for the last 25 or so years as well. I know it isn't easy. Who cares what some imaginary God thinks. I think you're special.

 

[F1fan]

This is a natural event - the earth forming when the sun emerges. Happens all the time, literally.... every day I suppose.
This is something far weirder - something hitting the earth to form our seasons and give us a double planet system to stablize the earth's orbit.

Now something hit Uranus - knocked it sideways. So it can happen. But time and time again we seem to get uncannily lucky about events.

It's funny how you "true believers" in some sort of creationism move fast towards natural explanations when I ask why your God created children with defects and cancers.

I know you want to believe your God controls everything. You must realize how absurd it is to believe that a God created the universe, and then our solar system, and then our earth which evolved life including dinosaurs, and then deliberately sent a meteor to hit earth in just the right spot to kill off most life so that humans could evolve some 65 millions years later. And some of those evolved humans are children with defects and cancer.

I don't know about these "fine tuned arguments" - there was a ton of violence to create this 'tuning.'
And time is required to create us. You need time for the expansion of the universe, time for the first generaton of hydrogen stars to create 'metals' and time for generations of metal stars to build up to the point they can create rocky planets.

Right, a universe that is 13.4 billions years old was created just for we humans who have only been around for about 150,000 years? Does that not sound arrogant for humans to believe? It's all about us.

Sure, and we get that perfect season-creating angle, and a large moon (double planet) to stabilize that angle.
Kinda neat - the coincidences keep stacking up.

Why do you think the seasons are perfect? We had a summer that had 100 temps for so many days that there were serious concerns of death for many who didn't have AC. This last month saw a cold snap where temps were close to -10 for quite a few days, and led the many deaths right there. That's disruptive and far from perfect to my mind. It's survivable, not perfect. I would say perfect are highs around 80-85, and low humidity. So I think you have a bad case of "rose colored glasses". And on top of that you have hindsight bias. Look that up if you aren't aware of what it means.

 

[Alien826]

Then you might want to listen to the responses a bit better. It has been explained to you why what you have is not "reliable evidence". buy saying that "it can never be realized" (fixed that spelling for you) you are in effect stating that you do not have any reliable evidence. Perhaps you might want to rethink your response.

Also the OP sure felt that he had some "evidence". If you don't have any reliable evidence why even try?

Careful. Wrongly accusing someone of incorrect spelling ("realised" and "realized") are interchangeable spellings) coupled with a typo opens you up to all kinds of responses ...

 

[Subduction Zone]

Careful. Wrongly accusing someone of incorrect spelling ("realised" and "realized") are interchangeable spellings) coupled with a typo opens you up to all kinds of responses ...

The smiley indicates that I was kidding. I know that the British have different spellings, And since they invented the language they can get a bit techy when "corrected".

Unfortunately I have seen people do that seriously here. So I understand your reaction too.

 

[John53]

Hear, hear! I'm one of those non-special people too, I guess.

I am so sorry that you had to go through that. My Dad went through something very similar and I saw how his belief that he was taught that there was something wrong with him since he was born. You know, the Christian way, and all!

I'm happy to hear that you are doing well now, and recovering from all the terrible abuse you had to endure. Nobody should have to go through that. I've been trying to recover from trauma for the last 25 or so years as well. I know it isn't easy. Who cares what some imaginary God thinks. I think you're special.

Lucky for us non-special people there is a whole list of excuses reasons why we don't deserve to be special in this thread...

* God doesn't talk to ordinary plebs (except when he does but that's because he's God and does what he wants it has nothing to do with trying to cover up a major contradiction).

* We weren't sincere enough.

* We should sit back and accept our fate. nobody gets to tell God what to do because God doesn't do stuff just because whiney humans want him to.

 

[Alien826]

The revelations from God were not inaccurate when they were first revealed but after man meddled with them over long periods of time, these religions no longer resembled what was originally revealed.

That surprised me. I thought you would say that the message was fitted to the people of the time.

Does that mean that Baha'u'llah's message will inevitably be (or has already been) corrupted and a new Messenger will one day be required?

Did Baha'u'llah say anything about why God doesn't prevent the corruption of his message? I ask because some Christians claim that the Bible is infallible because God has preserved it in its original form (something like that).

 

[F1fan]

I see that there IS evidence for God.

Is it fair to say you decided a God exists via this evidence? And since it is evidence that does not impress critical thinkers it is as best WEAK evidence, therefore your conclusion about a God existing could be in error?

If there was no evidence, I would not know what I do know.
It is not as if I have just made it all up.

You could be sincere in your decision that some sort of God exists, but not be aware that you used flawed thinking to make the conclusion, and thus mistaken. The major flaw is that believers assume their God exists, and then request evidence that it doesn't exist, which is a fallacy of "proving a negative". You could know this if you read what critical thinkers write. Critical thinkers offer more concise reasoning than theists in relation to religious concepts. We approach ideas as if by default they are untrue, and seek evidence that the idea IS true.

No. It is just that human beings DENY that messengers were sent .. DENY that messengers were given revelation.

It's more acurate to say that critical thinkers reject the claims made by fallible mortals that messengers existed and offer divine revelations. The revelations are not convincing. There are more plausible explanations for what these revelations are, and how they came to be.

They claim that it's all fraud and delusion.
That is "their" nonsense.

If there is any fraud it is believers who are not being transparent and honest about the nature of what they think is evidence.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Hear, hear! I'm one of those non-special people too, I guess.

I am so sorry that you had to go through that. My Dad went through something very similar and I saw how his belief that he was taught that there was something wrong with him since he was born. You know, the Christian way, and all!

I've had Christians tell me that God didn't answer my prayers for protection while I was growing up in an abusive home because I didn't have enough faith in God for him to save me or because I had unconfessed sins in my life. Remember, I was an abused child pleading to God, begging him to save me from being beaten by my adoptive mother and older brother. And years ago, I counseled with my pastor at the time, and after he had listened to me tell him about my life growing up in an abusive home, he told me that I'm a cursed soul. He said that it was obvious to him that God hated me and was punishing me for the sins of my biological parents, and apparently one of their gravest sins was having an affair, and I'm the result of that affair. I truly believed him because generational sins are biblical. It's written in the Bible that God punishes generations of families for the sins of their ancestors. He also told me that there was nothing I could do to change God's mind about me. Of course, I believed every word he said because I knew what the Bible taught about God hating Esau and how God cursed Cain. So I had no doubt that I had been cursed by God and that he despised me.

I'm happy to hear that you are doing well now, and recovering from all the terrible abuse you had to endure. Nobody should have to go through that. I've been trying to recover from trauma for the last 25 or so years as well. I know it isn't easy. Who cares what some imaginary God thinks. I think you're special.

That was very kind of you to say, and I truly appreciate it. Thank you.

I'm sorry to hear about what your dad went through and what you're going through now.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Did this Pink Unicorn create and maintain the universe?
Well, I can answer that .. no .. a pink Unicorn, if it exists, must be a creature. A creature did not create .. it is part of the creation.

oh .. and if it's invisible, then how can it be pink?

What sort of nonsense is this?
Why would you rather talk about pink unicorns rather than God?
It would seem that many people prefer to pretend that the Bible and Qur'an do not exist .. or that the people who believe them are somehow gullible in thinking that there is more to life than being born and dying.

Because they share something in common -- they are both the inventions of humans.