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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.

This OP is applicable to all Faiths Moses and Torah, Jesus New Testament, Muhammad Koran, etc), but I will use what has been offered in the Bahai writings.

So Evidence of the Hidden God.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

After the Manifestations have left the earth, the Word remains as the proof

"Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

So the trial begins, the evidence is already boxed, the defendant/s stand in front of all Humanity

So what can be provided are the links to all the proof given by the Manifestations (defendants).

The person of the Manifestation is one line of evidence, Character references are available.

The Guidence/Wrirings given by them is the other line of Evidence left, that can be linked.

That is all the defendant will give as proof of God.

Now the key here is, we all get to be the jury and the judge. The Manifestations will individually submit to your verdict, so the burden of Justice now falls upon each individual.

Regards Tony
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.

This OP is applicable to all Faiths Moses and Torah, Jesus New Testament, Muhammad Koran, etc), but I will use what has been offered in the Bahai writings.

So Evidence of the Hidden God.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

After the Manifestations have left the earth, the Word remains as the proof

"Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

So the trial begins, the evidence is already boxed, the defendant/s stand in front of all Humanity

So what can be provided are the links to all the proof given by the Manifestations (defendants).

The person of the Manifestation is one line of evidence, Character references are available.

The Guidence/Wrirings given by them is the other line of Evidence left, that can be linked.

That is all the defendant will give as proof of God.

Now the key here is, we all get to be the jury and the judge. The Manifestations will individually submit to your verdict, so the burden of Justice now falls upon each individual.

Regards Tony

Maybe you could rewrite your post in simpler terms for us dummies because I (and maybe it's only me) understand very little of what you have written.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.
Wow. That's an ambitious goal.

I think the problem you will have is showing there is no other plausible explanation for the phenomena you are calling manifestations of God.

Good luck and best wishes on this.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.

This OP is applicable to all Faiths Moses and Torah, Jesus New Testament, Muhammad Koran, etc), but I will use what has been offered in the Bahai writings.

So Evidence of the Hidden God.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

After the Manifestations have left the earth, the Word remains as the proof

"Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

So the trial begins, the evidence is already boxed, the defendant/s stand in front of all Humanity

So what can be provided are the links to all the proof given by the Manifestations (defendants).

The person of the Manifestation is one line of evidence, Character references are available.

The Guidence/Wrirings given by them is the other line of Evidence left, that can be linked.

That is all the defendant will give as proof of God.

Now the key here is, we all get to be the jury and the judge. The Manifestations will individually submit to your verdict, so the burden of Justice now falls upon each individual.

Regards Tony

I'm probably entirely not understanding religion but I can't see what evidence and proof have got to do with it. And to fall into that game is to set oneself up for a hiding to nothing. Religion is not science. Religion is not a legal matter.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wow. That's an ambitious goal.

I think the problem you will have is showing there is no other plausible explanation for the phenomena you are calling manifestations of God.

Good luck and best wishes on this.

It is an unachievable goal. :) People will still demand evidence, yet Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, to name a few, have provided all the evidence that God has given them to provide, no more and no less. God is known to us by their person, their given Revelation and the Word/s they gave.

As such if one wishes to prosecute them, which is putting God on trial, then they need to negate the evidence. To negate the evidence, one needs to first know what is provided.

Not sure how this can unfold. Am I am just an observer? I am definitly not a lawyer. I did start the OP with provoking statements. ;)

Regards Tony
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Is your evidence falsifiable?
What evidence?
Even I can think of evidence for gods,
eg, finely tuned properties of the universe.
(Note that evidence isn't proof. It's
just evidence used in some arguments.)
But I saw only claims in the OP.

This claim in the OP....
"This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided."
....reminds of my pontification punctuating some of my posts....
"I have spoken."
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is your evidence falsifiable?

That would be up to you. It is provided by every Manifestation to us individually. We are asked to pursue it with Justice in mind.

This is what I asked of us, appealing to the Spirit of justice within us.

".....The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes..."

They ask us only to be just in our examination of their person, intent and message.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe you could rewrite your post in simpler terms for us dummies because I (and maybe it's only me) understand very little of what you have written.

The Evidence for God, is only the evidence provided by God to us since time began.

There is the Prophet (also known by other designations), there is their Revelation that they come to us with and then there is the Message.

Contained in all 3 of those aspects is all the Proof that God has provided to us, for us to know and Love God.

So.

1)The Person - Known as a prophet, or, messenger, or manifestation
2) The Revelation they give - Given to transform society, changes the direction of humanity
3) The Word - The Message given becomes the standard and guidance for the growth of humanity.

That is the evidence, which is provided to each individual to decide upon.

Regards Tony
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.

This OP is applicable to all Faiths Moses and Torah, Jesus New Testament, Muhammad Koran, etc), but I will use what has been offered in the Bahai writings.

So Evidence of the Hidden God.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

After the Manifestations have left the earth, the Word remains as the proof
You made this claim on another thread and I pointed out that the text you cite is a CLAIM, not evidence. You think it is evidence because you assume your messenger is legitimate. You need to demonstrate that is the case FIRST.

"Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah
Are we supposed to believe this at face value just because it sounds authoritative? That is circular reasoning: it's true because it says its true.

So the trial begins, the evidence is already boxed, the defendant/s stand in front of all Humanity

So what can be provided are the links to all the proof given by the Manifestations (defendants).

The person of the Manifestation is one line of evidence, Character references are available.

The Guidence/Wrirings given by them is the other line of Evidence left, that can be linked.

That is all the defendant will give as proof of God.

Now the key here is, we all get to be the jury and the judge. The Manifestations will individually submit to your verdict, so the burden of Justice now falls upon each individual.

Regards Tony
All of your evidence requires an assumption that it IS what you say it is. A jury has to assess evidence objectively. You presenting quotes is hearsay because the writer is dead and we can't ask him questions about what he wrote. That makes the texts inadmissible as evidence.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm probably entirely not understanding religion but I can't see what evidence and proof have got to do with it. And to fall into that game is to set oneself up for a hiding to nothing. Religion is not science. Religion is not a legal matter.

Faith to me is all about Justice of choice, so to me it is the apex of legality.

I provided this above, justice is a fundamental requirement of faith Baha'u'llah offered this.

O Son of Spirit. The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."

So that gives rational thoughts to pursue on the Legal Aspect of Faith.

As for Science. I see it is written that both Science and Faith have been provided by God for us to find Truth, one is not able to provide a full.picturr of Truth without the other. The evidence for that is contained within the Word. The evidence of also contained within the material world, the unexplainable aspects of let's say dreams and NDE experiences.

Regards Tony
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
Faith to me is all about Justice of choice, so to me it is the apex of legality.

I provided this above, justice is a fundamental requirement of faith Baha'u'llah offered this.

O Son of Spirit. The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."

So that gives rational thoughts to pursue on the Legal Aspect of Faith.

As for Science. I see it is written that both Science and Faith have been provided by God for us to find Truth, one is not able to provide a full.picturr of Truth without the other. The evidence for that is contained within the Word. The evidence of also contained within the material world, the unexplainable aspects of let's say dreams and NDE experiences.

Regards Tony
Fair enough. This doesn't resonate with me at all.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is an unachievable goal. :) People will still demand evidence, yet Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, to name a few, have provided all the evidence that God has given them to provide, no more and no less. God is known to us by their person, their given Revelation and the Word/s they gave.

As such if one wishes to prosecute them, which is putting God on trial, then they need to negate the evidence. To negate the evidence, one needs to first know what is provided.

Not sure how this can unfold. Am I am just an observer? I am definitly not a lawyer. I did start the OP with provoking statements. ;)

Regards Tony

What evidence?
Even I can think of evidence for gods,
eg, finely tuned properties of the universe.
(Note that evidence isn't proof. It's
just evidence used in some arguments.)
But I saw only claims in the OP.

This claim in the OP....
"This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided."
....reminds of my pontification punctuating some of my posts....
"I have spoken."

That was predicted. ;):D

Regards Tony
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
What evidence?
Even I can think of evidence for gods,
eg, finely tuned properties of the universe.
(Note that evidence isn't proof. It's
just evidence used in some arguments.)
But I saw only claims in the OP.

This claim in the OP....
"This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided."
....reminds of my pontification punctuating some of my posts....
"I have spoken."


The universe is not finely tuned, in fact it is chaos from the quantum right up to solar systems, galaxies, galactic clusters.

And unless evidence will stand up in court i do not consider it evidence..

"I have spoken."
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You made this claim on another thread and I pointed out that the text you cite is a CLAIM, not evidence. You think it is evidence because you assume your messenger is legitimate. You need to demonstrate that is the case FIRST.

I need only pursue it for my own self. After I come to my verdict, I get to live my choice.

God provides the Messenger, the Revelation and the Word to each and every individual to be the judge of that evidence, which we have to pursue individually.

That is the proof God gives, the signs of that proof are found in all of creation, in many varied ways.

The evidence is available, it was provided in the OP you quoted. I have been reading it for over 40 years, but it became apparent early for me, that the Messengers do, thus God does exist.

Regards Tony
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
That would be up to you. It is provided by every Manifestation to us individually. We are asked to pursue it with Justice in mind.

This is what I asked of us, appealing to the Spirit of justice within us.

".....The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes..."

They ask us only to be just in our examination of their person, intent and message.

Regards Tony

No, its if to the evidence, whether it can be tested and if proven false then discarded or amended and te-tested.
 
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