Equality of Men and Women

[Xax]

Men and women should have equal status, neither should seek to lord it over the other.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You mention 'full potential' but who's potential is being realized? The potential of women? Or rather is it an arbitrary expectation placed upon women? Putting the cart before the horse will surely lead to discord and trouble (and it has).

You can never have gender equality. The term 'equality' is a poor term. We're not all born equal. Anyone who thinks that is blind, and needs to look around just a little.

What we can have is respect for each and every human, regardless of gender, race, religion. ethnicity, etc. 'Equality' is another vague term like 'unity' that sounds nice, but is essentially meaningless in reality.

That is the key. With God there is no gender. We are one in spirit. The equality is in the right to pursue our highest aspirations, to our full potential.

Equality is not sameness. When you bring gender into the discussion it is obvious you can not have sameness.

Opportunity is given when those that prevent that opportunity, have a change of heart. That requires education. Thus the first step is to give access to all people of all races and gender, the right to a quality education, an education founded on virtues and free of all predudices.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Men and women should have equal status, neither should seek to lord it over the other.

From a Baha'i point of view I see that is the aim. This thought was from Abdul'baha;

"And among the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is the equality of women and men. The world of humanity has two wings—one is women and the other men. Not until both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes equal to the world of men in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and prosperity be attained as they ought to be."

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

That is the key. With God there is no gender. We are one in spirit. The equality is in the right to pursue our highest aspirations, to our full potential.

Exactly. But apparently women do not have full potential to be members of UHJ. They must have some sort of handicap besides gender. Generally if someone doesn't qualify for a certain job (jockeys have to be a certain weight, for example, and now there are women female jockeys) it is laid out loud and clear. They don't have the qualificaions in regards to education, skill set, whatever. 'Just because' isn't a valid reason, in my view. Neither is 'the reason is unknown.'

Equal pay for equal work.
Equal opportunity given equal qualifications.
Equal access to education.
Equal inheritance rights.
Equal voting rights.

But each person is different. Those differences are what makes this planet so amazing. Not the sameness, but the differences. If we were all the same, life would be so boring.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Exactly. But apparently women do not have full potential to be members of UHJ.

I see It has naught to do with potential.

Both men and women have to abide by that rule, thus It appears women have a greater bounty in acceptance of this Law.

You also know that there is no current answer as to why Baha'u'llah gave this Law, that can be provided, except we are told the wisdom of this will be as plain as the noon day sun in the future.

Wanting to Serve on the Universal House of Justice has naught to do with the potential of a individual soul, women or man, as that would be ambition. Ambition is dangerous ground in this aspect of Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But each person is different. Those differences are what makes this planet so amazing. Not the sameness, but the differences. If we were all the same, life would be so boring.

A unity and equality in our diversity.

Each having opportunity to reach their highest potential.

The view we hold as to what is the highest potential, will vary. I see it is to know and love God, that all knowledge has that aim.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

A unity and equality in our diversity.

Each having opportunity to reach their highest potential.

The view we hold as to what is the highest potential, will vary. I see it is to know and love God, that all knowledge has that aim.

Too had the potential that someone can reach is judged by others rather than their own qualifications. Such is the transition out of archaic primitive societies. But there are many unfair limitations besides dogmatic religious hierarchy, and wealth being the main one I'm guessing. How many gifted scientists fall through the cracks due to being born into poverty?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Too had the potential that someone can reach is judged by others rather than their own qualifications. Such is the transition out of archaic primitive societies. But there are many unfair limitations besides dogmatic religious hierarchy, and wealth being the main one I'm guessing. How many gifted scientists fall through the cracks due to being born into poverty?

I see we are living in a time of change and great change is happening.

The unity of humanity, in its diversity, is a goal we have to implement to ensure a future for our children. For this to happen will require a mindset open to the oneness of humanity.

I see world events indicate this change needs to happen sooner than later. I wish you safe and well in these times.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I see we are living in a time of change and great change is happening.

The unity of humanity, in its diversity, is a goal we have to implement to ensure a future for our children. For this to happen will require a mindset open to the oneness of humanity.

I see world events indicate this change needs to happen sooner than later. I wish you safe and well in these times.

Regards Tony

Tony, I'm not concerned one iota. This ego/personality will soon be dust. But you go ahead.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, I'm not concerned one iota. This ego/personality will soon be dust. But you go ahead.

As you said, different padagrams, as I see it is not ego/personality or self based motivation that guides us to find our unity.

"....O people of God! Do not busy yourselves in your own concerns; let your thoughts be fixed upon that which will rehabilitate the fortunes of mankind and sanctify the hearts and souls of men. This can best be achieved through pure and holy deeds, through a virtuous life and a goodly behaviour..." Baha'u'llah.

I see It is the lack of ego and self that allows this to happen.

Regards Tony

 

[Ponder This]

That is the key. With God there is no gender. We are one in spirit. The equality is in the right to pursue our highest aspirations, to our full potential.

Equality is not sameness. When you bring gender into the discussion it is obvious you can not have sameness.

Opportunity is given when those that prevent that opportunity, have a change of heart. That requires education. Thus the first step is to give access to all people of all races and gender, the right to a quality education, an education founded on virtues and free of all predudices.

Regards Tony

We may be splitting hairs here. If we unpack 'opportunity' what does that really mean to you?

Are you referring instead to social mobility? Or are you referring to educational indoctrination?

Are you saying people have the right to pursue happiness? Or the right to be served a chunk of happiness?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We may be splitting hairs here. If we unpack 'opportunity' what does that really mean to you?

Are you referring instead to social mobility? Or are you referring to educational indoctrination?

Are you saying people have the right to pursue happiness? Or the right to be served a chunk of happiness?

Opportunity is just that. To pursue ones choices.

Education has to be decided upon, it does not just happen.

Thus the role of a loving parent is to provide that opportuinty for a child by providing the best education they can in a suitable environment, so a child can find their potential.

The role of scociety is to determine what is the best education we can have to acheive this and implement it.

From a Baha'i point of view it has been found that for a child to find their greatest potential, the first level of education required is virtues. The foundation of virtues builds strong individuals and enables them to explore their potential without predudices and barriers.

Regards Tony

 

[Ponder This]

Opportunity is just that. To pursue ones choices.

Education has to be decided upon, it does not just happen.

Thus the role of a loving parent is to provide that opportuinty for a child by providing the best education they can in a suitable environment, so a child can find their potential.

The role of scociety is to determine what is the best education we can have to acheive this and implement it.

From a Baha'i point of view it has been found that for a child to find their greatest potential, the first level of education required is virtues. The foundation of virtues builds strong individuals and enables them to explore their potential without predudices and barriers.

Regards Tony

Okay, I think we may agree on the importance of educating children, but what about the education of women specifically? Do you think that's a thing? Or do you think the education of all people is the same regardless of gender?

For example:
What if we were on a board and we were making a decision about whether or not to offer a women's scholarship for higher education? How would you decide if that was appropriate or not? Or would you simply say straight up that we should reject it because it is obviously not equal opportunity (men are excluded from the scholarship)? How and on what basis should we make this sort of decision?

The principle of 'equal opportunity' suggests that a woman only scholarship is prejudiced and creates a barrier between men and women. Do you agree with that assessment of the principle of 'equal opportunity'? If not, why?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Okay, I think we may agree on the importance of educating children, but what about the education of women specifically? Do you think that's a thing? Or do you think the education of all people is the same regardless of gender?

For example:
What if we were on a board and we were making a decision about whether or not to offer a women's scholarship for higher education? How would you decide if that was appropriate or not? Or would you simply say straight up that we should reject it because it is obviously not equal opportunity (men are excluded from the scholarship)? How and on what basis should we make this sort of decision?

The principle of 'equal opportunity' suggests that a woman only scholarship is prejudiced and creates a barrier between men and women. Do you agree with that assessment of the principle of 'equal opportunity'? If not, why?

Is this distinction similar to the equality vs equity meme in circulation?

 

[Ponder This]

Is this distinction similar to the equality vs equity meme in circulation?
View attachment 26700

Nice meme, but the distinction I'm making is in representation of interests - not opportunities.

So the question that has to be answered isn't whether or not there is same opportunity, but rather what are the fundamental interests of people in the first place. In this case, everyone has an equal interest in watching the game. Without an equal interest in watching the game, there is no point to redistributing the boxes. Redistribution of the boxes is active discrimination. If it is done to create 'equal opportunities' then it is not inherently 'fair'. To be 'fair' it must take into account the interests of the people.

 

[Shad]

Is this distinction similar to the equality vs equity meme in circulation?
View attachment 26700

That is equality of outcome