Equality of Men and Women

[TransmutingSoul]

Personally I see this subject will evolve as we progress and find our unity as a human race.

From a Baha'i point of view we have a lot to consider on this topic and in no way can we say we currently have a full vision of what the future will be like for women.

What has been said is that it will be women that lead us to peace and in many areas women are stronger in virtue than are men.

Thus I do expect that it is quite possible that women will play the dominate role in our affairs in the future.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Thus I do expect that it is quite possible that women will play the dominate role in our affairs in the future.

So you do see the composition of your UHJ changing in the future. That is good news, but I don't really see how it's going to happen. So far anybody trying that in such ways as 'A Modest Proposal' have been declared covenant breakers.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Since the mid 1800's there has been a movement by women to become a voice amongst men. A voice that one could rightly say demands that men give women equal opportunity in all pursuits of life and in work equal pay for the same job.

Many women have laid down their lives to bring about this change.

In America The 'Women's Suffrage Movement' started in 1948 and paved the way to changing the way men thought about women. The Woman Suffrage Movement

It is little know that in Persia at the same time, there was also the stirrings of a voice for women by a Lady called Tahirih where she unveiled in front of men from a Muslim background. Tahirih was put to death in 1852 and her final words were reported to be;

"You can kill me as soon as you like, but you cannot stop the emancipation of women."

Giving a voice to Tahirih - the 19th century Persian suffragette

View attachment 26582

So the question is how do Men and Women find this Equality?

The pole questions give food for thought, or you may have another thought?

Regards Tony

I believe that men and women should have equal opportunity, but currently in far too many cases they do not.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I chose "women are better than men". Although I am myself a man, I've always rather despised men and viewed females as the superior sex. Popular notions of masculinity are too riddled with insecurity and neurosis for me. My religion is actually mostly female oriented. There are more female named deities in it than male and female shamans were historically the most powerful religious leaders of the Germanic tribes. Odin himself crosses gender boundaries in pursuit of knowledge and wisdom, and Loki (who sometimes is viewed as an aspect of Odin) shapeshifts into female animals to get pregnant and give birth at times. The Sun is also viewed as feminine.

But practically speaking, I would prefer a pure meritocracy where everyone is afforded the same opportunities and just naturally gravitates to whatever works best for them as an individual. Sex differences do exist but are just generalizations. Biological sex is a spectrum, not a strict binary.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you do see the composition of your UHJ changing in the future. That is good news, but I don't really see how it's going to happen. So far anybody trying that in such ways as 'A Modest Proposal' have been declared covenant breakers.

The Membership of the Universal House of Justice is set in Law in the Baha'i Faith, it can not change.

I do see women will be the first to embrace and obey the Law, as many already do.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

The Membership of the Universal House of Justice is set in Law in the Baha'i Faith, it can not change.

That is really too bad. It forces the Baha'i adherents into speaking contradictions. "We believe in gender equality but we don't practice it ourselves." Sad really, cause nobody buys it. I just wonder, as someone asked before, how those 9 Supreme men treat their secretaries and workers. But of course nobody except those 9 Supreme men would be privy to that. How convenient.

 

[dianaiad]

Since the mid 1800's there has been a movement by women to become a voice amongst men. A voice that one could rightly say demands that men give women equal opportunity in all pursuits of life and in work equal pay for the same job.

Many women have laid down their lives to bring about this change.

In America The 'Women's Suffrage Movement' started in 1948 and paved the way to changing the way men thought about women. The Woman Suffrage Movement

It is little know that in Persia at the same time, there was also the stirrings of a voice for women by a Lady called Tahirih where she unveiled in front of men from a Muslim background. Tahirih was put to death in 1852 and her final words were reported to be;

"You can kill me as soon as you like, but you cannot stop the emancipation of women."

Giving a voice to Tahirih - the 19th century Persian suffragette

View attachment 26582

So the question is how do Men and Women find this Equality?

The pole questions give food for thought, or you may have another thought?

Regards Tony

That's 1848, not 1948...but I'm sure you caught onto that. The odd thing here is that the folks in my belief system have figured that women should have the vote back to 1840. Indeed, we've had that vote since that time, and the government actually forced us to give up the right for women to vote in order for Utah to become a state. The women, quite literally, voted themselves out of that right, upon the promise by the men that it would be given back at the state convention.

It was...but for a few months, there, Utah women didn't have the right to vote; not because our religion was patriarchal, but because the federal government was afraid of Mormon women voting. I have been brought up to believe that men and women were equal partners in all things 'secular,' but that we had different roles to play in the family. Not 'greater' or 'lesser,' but different.

Worked for me. I have never been taught, by my religion or by my family, that women were 'lesser beings,' or that we could not do anything that a man could do; that was left for my school counselors, who advised me to take more typing courses when I said I wanted to be an astronaut. (Well, I would have been a lousy astronaut, but I was a pretty good English teacher).

Are there still problems in this area? Sure. However, my kids didn't grow up thinking that the guys got the privileges and the girls had to take second place. As it happens, my girls all have good careers in what has commonly been seen as "male only" areas, and my boys?

Well, they drive trucks, but they know better than to think that being a country music fan and a truck driver gives them any leverage on their sisters.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's 1848, not 1948...but I'm sure you caught onto that.

Yes now caught on and fixed, thank you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is really too bad. It forces the Baha'i adherents into speaking contradictions. "We believe in gender equality but we don't practice it ourselves." Sad really, cause nobody buys it. I just wonder, as someone asked before, how those 9 Supreme men treat their secretaries and workers. But of course nobody except those 9 Supreme men would be privy to that. How convenient.

I can only tell you it is no issue within the Baha'i Faith and It is a different paradigm to what was offered to women in past Faiths.

Thus I can provide no answer but what was offered by Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi.

In a Tablet to an early woman believer 'Abdu’l-Bahá stated:

'O maidservant of God! Know thou that in the sight of God, the conduct of women is the same as that of men… From the spiritual point of view… there is no difference between women and men…' He added, however: 'As to the House of Justice: according to the explicit text of the Law of God, its membership is exclusively reserved to men. There is divine wisdom in this which will presently be made manifest even as the mid-day sun.'

The Guardian, Shoghi Effendi in reply to the same query from a believer pointed out in a letter written on his behalf on July 15th 1947:

"People must just accept the fact that women are not eligible to the International House of Justice. As the Master says the wisdom of this will be known in the future, we can only accept, believing it is right; but not able to give an explanation calculated to silence an ardent feminist!'

We must have faith in the Supreme Manifestation of God and His Exemplar, Whose prescience is revealed in such provisions which will one day 'be made manifest even as the mid-day sun."

Thus for a Baha'i we have Faith and know that no one aspires to be a dominate or lead figure in the Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There are physiological differences yes, that is obvious but when you start describing how there are differences in the way male and female brains are wired you are incorrect. The neurological networks are the same except for regulation of some hormones which when active have an influence on the brain as well as the body but that little to do with the overall function of male and female brains and how they process knowledge. Social conditioning may have an effect but this does not mean a true difference.

Actually the exposure to sex hormones in the womb cause quite a difference in brain structure. We can talk about how the corpus callosum (the white matter cable connecting the hemispheres) is much thicker in women, which is why our brains are much more homogeneous, and men's are more localized. We can talk about how a man’s amygdala, part of experiencing emotions and the recollection of such experiences, is bigger than a woman’s and works differently. On the other hand, a woman’s hippocampus, important to learning and memorization, is larger than a man’s. It ALSO works differently.

A lot of cross cultural studies have been done that have exposed certain sex related differences in behavior and cognition. Now, the tops of the two bell shaped curves are actually fairly close together, so it is practical to treat both sexes as equals, but when you go out to the extremes, there is where you will find significant differences between them. One example among many: women consistently do better on verbal scales such as reading and writing.

Here is a good website where you can read more:
How men's and women's brains are different

 

[HonestJoe]

I have led a very physical life and can say with some authority that men can do physical tasks that women can not.

That statement is simply false and is the fundamental problem here. There is absolutely nothing every single man can do that every single woman can’t do and vice versa. There are certainly philological trends influenced by biology (and sometimes ingrained sociology) which means a greater proportion of men or women many excel at a particular task but you will still be able to find women who are better than the average man at things commonly seen as male activities and vice versa. You will most certainly find individuals who are terrible at something commonly attributed to their gender and so almost anyone of the “wrong” gender for it would be better. Presuming any level of ability or inability on the basis of gender alone is factually and practically wrong regardless of any subjective moral question beyond that.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Since the mid 1800's there has been a movement by women to become a voice amongst men. A voice that one could rightly say demands that men give women equal opportunity in all pursuits of life and in work equal pay for the same job.

Many women have laid down their lives to bring about this change.

In America The 'Women's Suffrage Movement' started in 1848 and paved the way to changing the way men thought about women. The Woman Suffrage Movement

It is little know that in Persia at the same time, there was also the stirrings of a voice for women by a Lady called Tahirih where she unveiled in front of men from a Muslim background. Tahirih was put to death in 1852 and her final words were reported to be;

"You can kill me as soon as you like, but you cannot stop the emancipation of women."

Giving a voice to Tahirih - the 19th century Persian suffragette

View attachment 26582

So the question is how do Men and Women find this Equality?

The pole questions give food for thought, or you may have another thought?

Regards Tony

The teachings and lifestyle of Jesus shows how women are to be treated, and Jesus emancipated women.

 

[ajay0]

My mother grew up in the outskirts of Belfast and had the capacity for higher education which was not supported as her father couldn't see the point. Women either worked in the clothing mill or married and had children. That was all during the second world war. Mercifully there has been a paradigm shift since.

I live in a country that emphasises the equal opportunities for woman. I live in New Zealand where we have a 38 year old female prime minister who had her first baby while in office last year.

Jacinda Ardern - Wikipedia

I'm a member of the Baha'i faith. As you know, the equality of men and women is seen as one of the essential prerequisites for world peace.

Well stated.

I have always wondered why there are no female Popes or Mullahs or Imams, when there are women leaders in the corporate sector and political sector.

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris have become the trailblazer in this regard by being the first spiritual organization in the world led, administered and taught by women.

I think it makes a lot of sense, as most spiritual qualities of love, compassion, forgiveness, patience, nurturing comes easily to women.

You can be rest assured that they would not set the world on fire with crusades or Jihads, as they have an innate abhorrence to violence or disharmony.

I hope the rest of the world and religions start emulating the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, so that hopefully we can see female Imams, bishops and Popes and more accountability for religious values of peace, harmony and nonviolence.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That statement is simply false and is the fundamental problem here. There is absolutely nothing every single man can do that every single woman can’t do and vice versa. There are certainly philological trends influenced by biology (and sometimes ingrained sociology) which means a greater proportion of men or women many excel at a particular task but you will still be able to find women who are better than the average man at things commonly seen as male activities and vice versa. You will most certainly find individuals who are terrible at something commonly attributed to their gender and so almost anyone of the “wrong” gender for it would be better. Presuming any level of ability or inability on the basis of gender alone is factually and practically wrong regardless of any subjective moral question beyond that.

I see the best education in life is finding an individuals abilities and potentials and fostering those in a way they can be used throughout their lives.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The teachings and lifestyle of Jesus shows how women are to be treated, and Jesus emancipated women.

Can we then reflect how what Jesus the Christ showed us and taught, did not necessarily unfold in practice?

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

That is really too bad. It forces the Baha'i adherents into speaking contradictions. "We believe in gender equality but we don't practice it ourselves." Sad really, cause nobody buys it. I just wonder, as someone asked before, how those 9 Supreme men treat their secretaries and workers. But of course nobody except those 9 Supreme men would be privy to that. How convenient.

In addition to your points, Baha'i seems to expect women to focus upon home, children, and leave many jobs to the men. I remember that women to do not feature so fairly in Baha'i inheritances, nor do they take part in treasure discovery decisions.

I expect that there will be more differences in Baha'i ideas about equality, .But I don't expect that we will discover these from Baha'i.

 

[Vinayaka]

In addition to your points, Baha'i seems to expect women to focus upon home, children, and leave many jobs to the men. I remember that women to do not feature so fairly in Baha'i inheritances, nor do they take part in treasure discovery decisions.

I expect that there will be more differences in Baha'i ideas about equality, .But I don't expect that we will discover these from Baha'i.

And I await the defensive response to your hateful rant. (yawn)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In addition to your points, Baha'i seems to expect women to focus upon home, children, and leave many jobs to the men. I remember that women to do not feature so fairly in Baha'i inheritances, nor do they take part in treasure discovery decisions.

I expect that there will be more differences in Baha'i ideas about equality, .But I don't expect that we will discover these from Baha'i.

What are your views on the equality of men and women?

I can advise you have not captured what Baha'i believe. I will post some ideas in the course of this thread.

The law of inheritance also needs to put into context. It is Baha'i Law that all people have a will and testament of Faith. Thus one is free to distribute their worldy belongings as they wish to do. Inheritance laws are thus set for those that neglected this law.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And I await the defensive response to your hateful rant. (yawn)

Are you here to discuss the topic?

Regards Tony

 

[sealchan]

Since the mid 1800's there has been a movement by women to become a voice amongst men. A voice that one could rightly say demands that men give women equal opportunity in all pursuits of life and in work equal pay for the same job.

Many women have laid down their lives to bring about this change.

In America The 'Women's Suffrage Movement' started in 1848 and paved the way to changing the way men thought about women. The Woman Suffrage Movement

It is little know that in Persia at the same time, there was also the stirrings of a voice for women by a Lady called Tahirih where she unveiled in front of men from a Muslim background. Tahirih was put to death in 1852 and her final words were reported to be;

"You can kill me as soon as you like, but you cannot stop the emancipation of women."

Giving a voice to Tahirih - the 19th century Persian suffragette

View attachment 26582

So the question is how do Men and Women find this Equality?

The pole questions give food for thought, or you may have another thought?

Regards Tony

Since the mid 1800's there has been a movement by women to become a voice amongst men. A voice that one could rightly say demands that men give women equal opportunity in all pursuits of life and in work equal pay for the same job.

Many women have laid down their lives to bring about this change.

In America The 'Women's Suffrage Movement' started in 1848 and paved the way to changing the way men thought about women. The Woman Suffrage Movement

It is little know that in Persia at the same time, there was also the stirrings of a voice for women by a Lady called Tahirih where she unveiled in front of men from a Muslim background. Tahirih was put to death in 1852 and her final words were reported to be;

"You can kill me as soon as you like, but you cannot stop the emancipation of women."

Giving a voice to Tahirih - the 19th century Persian suffragette

View attachment 26582

So the question is how do Men and Women find this Equality?

The pole questions give food for thought, or you may have another thought?

Regards Tony

This is the question of our time, indeed.

It is likely that men and women may have physical differences, even in the brain, that makes their skill set different...but the question is if one sex is "better" at something than another, does that mean that only that sex "should" perform that task or take on that role. My answer is two-fold:

• The judgment of better is often made from a single set of criteria which are not exclusively valuable. This I would call the moral flaw of mono-modality (only approaching truth from one way of knowing truth)
• The judgment of better is typically flawed by the belief that only the best should do something. This I might call the moral flaw of competitivity (determining that only those who win are valuable)

One way to say this is that because a man doesn't do something in a woman's way as well as a woman might do it, doesn't mean it isn't valuable in itself and beneficial to our society that men are allowed and encouraged according to their preference to do that thing. From this perspective I think that there is plenty of room for men and women in their differing abilities to mutually participate in practically any role or personal pursuit.