Equality of Men and Women

[Bear Wild]

Actually the exposure to sex hormones in the womb cause quite a difference in brain structure. We can talk about how the corpus callosum (the white matter cable connecting the hemispheres) is much thicker in women, which is why our brains are much more homogeneous, and men's are more localized. We can talk about how a man’s amygdala, part of experiencing emotions and the recollection of such experiences, is bigger than a woman’s and works differently. On the other hand, a woman’s hippocampus, important to learning and memorization, is larger than a man’s. It ALSO works differently.

A lot of cross cultural studies have been done that have exposed certain sex related differences in behavior and cognition. Now, the tops of the two bell shaped curves are actually fairly close together, so it is practical to treat both sexes as equals, but when you go out to the extremes, there is where you will find significant differences between them. One example among many: women consistently do better on verbal scales such as reading and writing.

Here is a good website where you can read more:
How men's and women's brains are different

I am aware of those reported differences from many sources but the overlap between the is so great that without knowing you were examining a male or female brain you would not be able to distinguish them. There is just too much similarity. And in terms of true functional differences we see huge overlap of abilities making it difficult to distinguish male of female performances without knowing whether they are male or female. Also the basic "wiring" and structures are the same. men and women have a hippocampus, men and women have an amygdala. Men and women have a corpus callosum. I have not seen a study comparing sized and weigh associated with any differences and whatever differences exist they are insignificant compared to the similarity.

 

[oldbadger]

What are your views on the equality of men and women?

My views?
Absolute Equality. Freedom of choice within law.

For instance if a married father believes (with his spouse) that it is best for him to be a house husband while his spouse follows a particular career, then fine.

If a woman believes that she should undertake a military, judicial or any other career, then fine.

No fixed ideas or expectations for people. No fixed dress codes. Nothing fixed or expected ......

I can advise you have not captured what Baha'i believe. I will post some ideas in the course of this thread.

I don't think that you have captured what I believe, which is freedom of body, mind, heart, vocation.......

The law of inheritance also needs to put into context. It is Baha'i Law that all people have a will and testament of Faith. Thus one is free to distribute their worldy belongings as they wish to do. Inheritance laws are thus set for those that neglected this law.

Regards Tony

It seems that everything that Bahauallah or the Bab wrote needs to be 'put in to context', which to me seems very much like 'needs to be adapted to suit the situation or moment'.

I would prefer to see the writings 'as are'.

 

[Ellen Brown]

That statement is simply false and is the fundamental problem here. There is absolutely nothing every single man can do that every single woman can’t do and vice versa. There are certainly philological trends influenced by biology (and sometimes ingrained sociology) which means a greater proportion of men or women many excel at a particular task but you will still be able to find women who are better than the average man at things commonly seen as male activities and vice versa. You will most certainly find individuals who are terrible at something commonly attributed to their gender and so almost anyone of the “wrong” gender for it would be better. Presuming any level of ability or inability on the basis of gender alone is factually and practically wrong regardless of any subjective moral question beyond that.

Perhaps you'd agree that men WILL do what women have the sense not to do?

 

[oldbadger]

And I await the defensive response to your hateful rant. (yawn)

Although freedom of opportunity for women is opening up here (UK), such as recent decisions being taken to give women the opportunity to serve in the military in any role including any front-line service, there are still barriers that need to be torn down and dumped.

My wife works full-time at a veterinary surgery, while I draw a pension and stay home to look after the many pets, go shopping, do household chores etc.etc. I sometimes get the occasional comment or 'look' from folks if they happen to hear of this arrangement, mostly from women. This happened last summer when a woman said to me,'so you're actually prepared to let your wife go to work while you stay home?' When I asked her if I should go back to work and make my wife exchange roles with me she said that she thought that was right, and was then deluged with challenges and criticisms from her own friends.

Equality of opportunity and freedom of choice slips from the tongue so easily, but killing off the prejudice, bigotry and social/cultural expectations will take a little more time, methinks.

I think that Bahai will only re-enforce what we're trying to demolish.

 

[Vinayaka]

Although freedom of opportunity for women is opening up here (UK), such as recent decisions being taken to give women the opportunity to serve in the military in any role including any front-line service, there are still barriers that need to be torn down and dumped.

My wife works full-time at a veterinary surgery, while I draw a pension and stay home to look after the many pets, go shopping, do household chores etc.etc. I sometimes get the occasional comment or 'look' from folks if they happen to hear of this arrangement, mostly from women. This happened last summer when a woman said to me,'so you're actually prepared to let your wife go to work while you stay home?' When I asked her if I should go back to work and make my wife exchange roles with me she said that she thought that was right, and was then deluged with challenges and criticisms from her own friends.

Equality of opportunity and freedom of choice slips from the tongue so easily, but killing off the prejudice, bigotry and social/cultural expectations will take a little more time, methinks.

I think that Bahai will only re-enforce what we're trying to demolish.

My daughter the electrician occasionally runs into the same sorts of things. It's a pretty confusing issue for many. She's had foremen who treated her with utmost respect. One guy, because he was harassing her, and another female co-worker, was reported. When confronted, the slime ball denied it. But the foreman hid around a corner of the site, and witnessed it firsthand. He fired the guy on the spot.

Others had a lot of difficulty with her in a foreman role. Another Boss, when a guy complained to him, got the two of them together and started drilling them both on electrical stuff. When she outperformed him by a lot, the guy saw why she was appointed crew chief over him, and changed his tune.

So it all takes work, and yes, we have a ways to go.

But with the Baha'i, it generally isn't much of a discussion at all. We already know their POV as it is by the Baha'i book, and never changes. So I'm going to stick to the overall topic from now.

As a male elementary teacher, a few kids were scared to have their first man teacher, but within a week I'd have them switched off fear and into co-operation.

Our family made a conscious decision to have several kids (5) through many long talks the first couple of years of marriage. We decided to separate our roles, and after the first child was born (and subsequent ones) she has never worked outside the house. We always managed on my salary somehow, although she certainly would have worked once the kids grew up.

It's an interesting topic to watch. At the temple I watch body language for it. Very individualised. Many women will often come alone, but there are couples (usually more recent immigrants) where you can just tell the man figures he's boss.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well stated.

I have always wondered why there are no female Popes or Mullahs or Imams, when there are women leaders in the corporate sector and political sector.

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris have become the trailblazer in this regard by being the first spiritual organization in the world led, administered and taught by women.

I think it makes a lot of sense, as most spiritual qualities of love, compassion, forgiveness, patience, nurturing comes easily to women.

You can be rest assured that they would not set the world on fire with crusades or Jihads, as they have an innate abhorrence to violence or disharmony.

I hope the rest of the world and religions start emulating the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, so that hopefully we can see female Imams, bishops and Popes and more accountability for religious values of peace, harmony and nonviolence.

The Brahmakumaris have been well represented on our city’s interfaith council for many years by a woman who is also the vice principal of one of our high schools.

There’s been a profound shift of values and perspectives in every culture since the nineteenth century where the role and status of woman has changed. Woman are taking their place alongside men in every human endeavour.

Institutions that have most resisted changes are also those most under siege.

Abdul-Baha, the son of Bahá’u’lláh famously remarked during his visit to the USA during 1912:

Therefore, strive to show in the human world that women are most capable and efficient, that their hearts are more tender and susceptible than the hearts of men, that they are more philanthropic and responsive toward the needy and suffering, that they are inflexibly opposed to war and are lovers of peace. Strive that the ideal of international peace may become realized through the efforts of womankind, for man is more inclined to war than woman, and a real evidence of woman’s superiority will be her service and efficiency in the establishment of universal peace. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 283.

Peace Depends on Full Equality for Women

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My views?
Absolute Equality. Freedom of choice within law.

For instance if a married father believes (with his spouse) that it is best for him to be a house husband while his spouse follows a particular career, then fine.

If a woman believes that she should undertake a military, judicial or any other career, then fine.

No fixed ideas or expectations for people. No fixed dress codes. Nothing fixed or expected ......

That's great, good on you. It is mostly in harmony as to what I also beleive.

I would add that I do see we need as part of the laws we all need to abide by, is that an acceptable moral code should be implemented. Modesty is urgently needed in my opinion.

Regards Tony

 

[Ellen Brown]

My daughter the electrician occasionally runs into the same sorts of things. It's a pretty confusing issue for many. She's had foremen who treated her with utmost respect. One guy, because he was harassing her, and another female co-worker, was reported. When confronted, the slime ball denied it. But the foreman hid around a corner of the site, and witnessed it firsthand. He fired the guy on the spot.

Others had a lot of difficulty with her in a foreman role. Another Boss, when a guy complained to him, got the two of them together and started drilling them both on electrical stuff. When she outperformed him by a lot, the guy saw why she was appointed crew chief over him, and changed his tune.

So it all takes work, and yes, we have a ways to go.

But with the Baha'i, it generally isn't much of a discussion at all. We already know their POV as it is by the Baha'i book, and never changes. So I'm going to stick to the overall topic from now.

As a male elementary teacher, a few kids were scared to have their first man teacher, but within a week I'd have them switched off fear and into co-operation.

Our family made a conscious decision to have several kids (5) through many long talks the first couple of years of marriage. We decided to separate our roles, and after the first child was born (and subsequent ones) she has never worked outside the house. We always managed on my salary somehow, although she certainly would have worked once the kids grew up.

It's an interesting topic to watch. At the temple I watch body language for it. Very individualised. Many women will often come alone, but there are couples (usually more recent immigrants) where you can just tell the man figures he's boss.

I was an Electrician for 33 years, and can confirm what you say. I think there are Anthropological things at play that seem to make the male the boss. However, most males never figure out that being dominant does not entitle you to be a jerk.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My daughter the electrician occasionally runs into the same sorts of things. It's a pretty confusing issue for many. She's had foremen who treated her with utmost respect. One guy, because he was harassing her, and another female co-worker, was reported. When confronted, the slime ball denied it. But the foreman hid around a corner of the site, and witnessed it firsthand. He fired the guy on the spot.

Others had a lot of difficulty with her in a foreman role. Another Boss, when a guy complained to him, got the two of them together and started drilling them both on electrical stuff. When she outperformed him by a lot, the guy saw why she was appointed crew chief over him, and changed his tune.

So it all takes work, and yes, we have a ways to go.

That is a great story and it shows that women are indeed starting to have a voice and gain the equality that is rightfully theirs.

Regards Tony

 

[Ellen Brown]

That's great, good on you. It is mostly in harmony as to what I also beleive.

I would add that I do see we need as part of the laws we all need to abide by, is that an acceptable moral code should be implemented. Modesty is urgently needed in my opinion.

Regards Tony

Modesty and devoutness is what originally drew me to Islam and I still love that part. The extremeness of some Muslims is a huge turn off for me. Some seem to think that almost anything that is done, especially by a woman is sufficient cause to cut off the head. YET, in their own book it says,"To kill one man, it is as if one had killed the whole world"? And, with my past, the male does not live that I would not shoot if he abused me! I don't actually fully practice Islam anymore, but my heart does.

 

[Vinayaka]

I was an Electrician for 33 years, and can confirm what you say. I think there are Anthropological things at play that seem to make the male the boss. However, most males never figure out that being dominant does not entitle you to be a jerk.

Leading by example is the only way. Foremen vary like that too. I worked some construction in early life before getting my B.ED. Twice I worked on grain elevators. One guy sat around, came out and yelled at us occasionally, and was an all around jerk. Crew of 6 people. The other guy said one thing ... "All I expect of you is to work as hard as me." He was a hard worker, and we all loved it. lots of friendly fun. I worked the entire summer. The first guy, I quit after a week.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Our family made a conscious decision to have several kids (5) through many long talks the first couple of years of marriage. We decided to separate our roles, and after the first child was born (and subsequent ones) she has never worked outside the house. We always managed on my salary somehow, although she certainly would have worked once the kids grew up.

I see this as an important part of Equality. That partners discuss all issues they need to face and each play a mutually agreed part in the future together.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I see this as an important part of Equality. That partners discuss all issues they need to face and each play a mutually agreed part in the future together.

Regards Tony

Divorce rate is high all around, rarely is communication taught as a skill, and there is still an idiot male culture out there, unfortunately. One can only change themselves.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Modesty and devoutness is what originally drew me to Islam and I still love that part. The extremeness of some Muslims is a huge turn off for me. Some seem to think that almost anything that is done, especially by a woman is sufficient cause to cut off the head. YET, in their own book it says,"To kill one man, it is as if one had killed the whole world"? And, with my past, the male does not live that I would not shoot if he abused me! I don't actually fully practice Islam anymore, but my heart does.

The decline of morality is a big problem the future needs to address.

Men have to know that a bird of humanity needs two balanced and helathy wings to fly.

We can only start with our own selves and it is not easy for those that have been brought up in the western culture to appreciate the value of modesty.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Divorce rate is high all around, rarely is communication taught as a skill, and there is still an idiot male culture out there, unfortunately. One can only change themselves.

My wife and I were part of those statistics. My wife and I have found a way back and now wonder why we fell apart.

Communication is the key and sometimes there is underlying medical issues that we also need to know about.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

The decline of morality is a big problem the future needs to address.

Men have to know that a bird of humanity needs two balanced and helathy wings to fly.

We can only start with our own selves and it is not easy for those that have been brought up in the western culture to appreciate the value of modesty.

Regards Tony

Modesty means nothing. Rape culture is alive and well in some very 'modest' cultures. It's an inner attitude. There is no rape in nudist colonies, as far as I know. It's about respect for your fellow human, not clothing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Modesty means nothing. Rape culture is alive and well in some very 'modest' cultures. It's an inner attitude. There is no rape in nudist colonies, as far as I know. It's about respect for your fellow human, not clothing.

I see modesty starts in our minds.

Yes it is more than our clothing, but I see moderation of clothing, assists modesty in all its aspects.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I see modesty starts in our minds.

Yes it is more than our clothing, but I see moderation of clothing, assists modesty in all its aspects.

Regards Tony

We will differ on this as well as a whole lot of other things. Nor do I see the western suit and tie as an indicator of morality. If anything, it's the opposite to me. Yet many church groups insist on it's use. It's ridiculously uncomfortable.

 

[Ellen Brown]

The decline of morality is a big problem the future needs to address.

Men have to know that a bird of humanity needs two balanced and helathy wings to fly.

We can only start with our own selves and it is not easy for those that have been brought up in the western culture to appreciate the value of modesty.

Regards Tony

I volunteered to go to Honduras twice after Hurricane Mitch to help rebuild. Then I went to Kenya, and finally Israel. Every time I have been abroad, when I returned to America, upon de-planing, as I walked down the concourses, I felt sort of a shock at the state of the lack of dress of women on magazine covers. Even now, many years later, when I see another woman in an ad, often wearing practically nothing, or something very form fitting, I feel embarrassed and humiliated, if those are the right words. I don't actually blame these women, but feel those who enticed them, I don't know what to say. I have worn a bikini years ago, and never felt right and these days, have no plans whatsoever to repeat that ill advised action. If I did, then I know that someone would say, "ew, cover that up".

What will become of us? I do not know.

 

[Vinayaka]

I volunteered to go to Honduras twice after Hurricane Mitch to help rebuild. Then I went to Kenya, and finally Israel. Every time I have been abroad, when I returned to America, upon de-planing, as I walked down the concourses, I felt sort of a shock at the state of the lack of dress of women on magazine covers. Even now, many years later, when I see another woman in an ad, often wearing practically nothing, or something very form fitting, I feel embarrassed and humiliated, if those are the right words. I don't actually blame these women, but feel those who enticed them, I don't know what to say. I have worn a bikini years ago, and never felt right and these days, have no plans whatsoever to repeat that ill advised action. If I did, then I know that someone would say, "ew, cover that up".

What will become of us? I do not know.

Have you heard about the rampant nun rape in Catholic seminaries? It's a big problem in South America, Africa, and India. I guess those nun garments aren't modest enough. It's the next big Catholic scandal, and hasn't yet been addressed much.

For me, the culture part is all part of getting used to it. I could walk along a nude beach in Southern France as well as the streets of Dubai. There's really no difference to me. In my culture we also practice modesty, but it's part of the culture, and not related to male power attitude against women.

We have to look soul to soul.

Here's one article ... google will get you a ton more ... After decades of silence, nuns talk about abuse by priests