Equality of Men and Women

[Ellen Brown]

Have you heard about the rampant nun rape in Catholic seminaries? It's a big problem in South America, Africa, and India. I guess those nun garments aren't modest enough. It's the next big Catholic scandal, and hasn't yet been addressed much.

For me, the culture part is all part of getting used to it. I could walk along a nude beach in Southern France as well as the streets of Dubai. There's really no difference to me. In my culture we also practice modesty, but it's part of the culture, and not related to male power attitude against women.

We have to look soul to soul.

Here's one article ... google will get you a ton more ... After decades of silence, nuns talk about abuse by priests

Have you heard of the ruction over the abuse at the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland, the Borstals in Wales? It just never seems to end does it? I've been concerned that the Mormons would get caught up in something. There are stories, but so far, nothing that is as significant.

 

[dybmh]

I have led a very physical life and can say with some authority that men can do physical tasks that women can not. In light of what happens to men as they retire, there is the question of "should" men press their physical bodies to do all they can do?

Both the Bible and the Quran say that women are subservient to men. Sadly, our cultures are rife with men mistreating women because they think those books say that women are inferior to men. AND good leaders soon learn that your leadership is only as good as how well you treat your "weakest" member of your team.

Surah 4:34 and Genesis 3:16 both state chillingly similar sentiments. My own opinion is that men can not push out babies. Women can walk through a room or area and "inventory" what is in it many times more effectively than men. Without a woman to order their lives, men wander about like lost puppies. There are myriad other differences between men and women and a thinking man will accept that men and women are equal, but not equivalent.

I interpret Genesis 3:16 as a limited statement.

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

"Unto the woman" is Eve? "Thy husband" is Adam? "Rule over thee" is limited to Adam and Eve?

 

[Ellen Brown]

I interpret Genesis 3:16 as a limited statement.

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

"Unto the woman" is Eve? "Thy husband" is Adam? "Rule over thee" is limited to Adam and Eve?

I might eventually agree with you. Save for the men and women who are conditioned to think it is true today. Is the woman with you Muslim or just covering for the weather. You don't give any indication of your belief system or location, so it is hard to filter what you say.

 

[HonestJoe]

Perhaps you'd agree that men WILL do what women have the sense not to do?

No. In exactly the same way, there is nothing all men will do that no women would (and vice versa). You can talk about trends and tendencies (though even then, gender won't be the only factor in any given example) but the unconditional hard binary divisions will never be accurate.

 

[oldbadger]

My daughter the electrician occasionally runs into the same sorts of things. It's a pretty confusing issue for many. She's had foremen who treated her with utmost respect. One guy, because he was harassing her, and another female co-worker, was reported. When confronted, the slime ball denied it. But the foreman hid around a corner of the site, and witnessed it firsthand. He fired the guy on the spot.

Others had a lot of difficulty with her in a foreman role. Another Boss, when a guy complained to him, got the two of them together and started drilling them both on electrical stuff. When she outperformed him by a lot, the guy saw why she was appointed crew chief over him, and changed his tune.

So it all takes work, and yes, we have a ways to go.

But with the Baha'i, it generally isn't much of a discussion at all. We already know their POV as it is by the Baha'i book, and never changes. So I'm going to stick to the overall topic from now.

As a male elementary teacher, a few kids were scared to have their first man teacher, but within a week I'd have them switched off fear and into co-operation.

Our family made a conscious decision to have several kids (5) through many long talks the first couple of years of marriage. We decided to separate our roles, and after the first child was born (and subsequent ones) she has never worked outside the house. We always managed on my salary somehow, although she certainly would have worked once the kids grew up.

It's an interesting topic to watch. At the temple I watch body language for it. Very individualised. Many women will often come alone, but there are couples (usually more recent immigrants) where you can just tell the man figures he's boss.

You must be very proud of your daughter. What a credit to your family, new initiatives and national culture.

Relevant to the thread and recent posts, I don't think that we have learned Tahirih's whole story here. If any asks I'll boot-up the old mainframe and dig around for the details.

Relevant to recent posts by Bahais, I just do not accept that a Bahai World could come anywhere near to delivering up equal Gender freedom or opportunity, the reasons fairly clear to me just from Bahai writings that I have read.

Worse than that, I feel absolutely certain that a Bahai World could not and would not deliver up equality, freedom and support for the whole range of sexual and gender identities.

I seem to remember that in a Bahai World men would even be expected to dress in 'men's clothing', etc etc..... and cut their hair differently.

No....... it's no good imo, claims that Bahai believes in gender equality is beyond pretentious.....

 

[oldbadger]

That's great, good on you. It is mostly in harmony as to what I also beleive.

I would add that I do see we need as part of the laws we all need to abide by, is that an acceptable moral code should be implemented. Modesty is urgently needed in my opinion.

Regards Tony

Tony............ are you telling me that as a Bahai or an individual?

The idea of Modesty laws beyond what we already have would be very very sad.

Are there Modesty Laws waiting for a Bahai World Order? If so, what are they?

As for the rest, my post to @Vinayaka just above this just about says it all for me.

 

[Vinayaka]

No....... it's no good imo, claims that Bahai believes in gender equality is beyond pretentious.....

Obviously, I concur. But at this point in time there is no point reiterating it on this forum. Maybe once in awhile so no newcomer reader is duped. So many ex-Baha'i signed their card before they knew the whole story. None of this stuff is mentioned until you're well into it. It's better now though because of the internet.

But lots of other religions, companies, government, and more are male top heavy. They're not the only ones.

 

[oldbadger]

But lots of other religions, companies, government, and more are male top heavy. They're not the only ones.

For sure.
But it's only when a culture, faith or religion is advertising itself as equality-wholesome that these points need to be raised.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Can we then reflect how what Jesus the Christ showed us and taught, did not necessarily unfold in practice?

Regards Tony

Of course! The human condition is hypocrisy and mask-wearing, and such people are found everywhere from atheist conclaves to evangelical churches.

So our response is to:

1) Understand what Jesus said and did regarding women

2) Recognize His nobility and greatness

3) Trust Him IMHO to get eternal life

 

[ajay0]

The Brahmakumaris have been well represented on our city’s interfaith council for many years by a woman who is also the vice principal of one of our high schools.

That's great. The Prajapita Brahmakumaris, is also a monotheistic sect like the Bahais, who worship God Shiva as an incorporeal point of light.

They consider Shiva to by synonymous with Jehovah, Allah, Ahura Mazda of the other monotheistic religions.

There’s been a profound shift of values and perspectives in every culture since the nineteenth century where the role and status of woman has changed. Woman are taking their place alongside men in every human endeavour.

Institutions that have most resisted changes are also those most under siege.

Abdul-Baha, the son of Bahá’u’lláh famously remarked during his visit to the USA during 1912:

Therefore, strive to show in the human world that women are most capable and efficient, that their hearts are more tender and susceptible than the hearts of men, that they are more philanthropic and responsive toward the needy and suffering, that they are inflexibly opposed to war and are lovers of peace. Strive that the ideal of international peace may become realized through the efforts of womankind, for man is more inclined to war than woman, and a real evidence of woman’s superiority will be her service and efficiency in the establishment of universal peace. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 283.

Peace Depends on Full Equality for Women

This is very well put.

Indeed, the empowerment of women as leaders may be strategically important for the establishment of world peace.

 

[Vinayaka]

For sure.
But it's only when a culture, faith or religion is advertising itself as equality-wholesome that these points need to be raised.

Indeed. False advertising. Honesty would simply mean saying 'we don't practice gender equality.' I don't have high expectations.

"Practice what you preach." is lost here.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No....... it's no good imo, claims that Bahai believes in gender equality is beyond pretentious.....

For sure.
But it's only when a culture, faith or religion is advertising itself as equality-wholesome that these points need to be raised.

Indeed. False advertising. Honesty would simply mean saying 'we don't practice gender equality.' I don't have high expectations.

"Practice what you preach." is lost here.

The Equality of Men and Women works well in the Baha'i Faith. It is a refreshing teaching brought by Baha'u'llah at a time women had little rights.

Equality does not mean sameness and our mindset on this subject does need adjusting, if we are to bring up healthy children in the future.

Abdul'baha offered from Baha'u'llah that, "The world of humanity has two wings—one is women and the other men. Not until both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes equal to the world of men in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and prosperity be attained as they ought to be."

Abdul'baha also offered what constitutes inequality;

"..In this day man must investigate reality impartially and without prejudice in order to reach the true knowledge and conclusions. What, then, constitutes the inequality between man and woman? Both are human. In powers and function each is the complement of the other. At most it is this: that woman has been denied the opportunities which man has so long enjoyed, especially the privilege of education.

Thus in the Baha'i Faith this has been practiced since the late 1800's. It is practiced under the Laws and Guidance of Baha'u'llah and all Baha'i Writings.

Here is a link to many quotes, quotes that were offered in America in the early 1900's and ideas beleivers were implementing in the late 1800's.

Selected Readings on The equality of men and women

Each person has the ability to decide for themselves the merits of the benefit of these teachings, if this is what is needed.

Regards Tony

 

[Ponder This]

Since the mid 1800's there has been a movement by women to become a voice amongst men. A voice that one could rightly say demands that men give women equal opportunity in all pursuits of life and in work equal pay for the same job.

Many women have laid down their lives to bring about this change.

In America The 'Women's Suffrage Movement' started in 1848 and paved the way to changing the way men thought about women. The Woman Suffrage Movement

It is little know that in Persia at the same time, there was also the stirrings of a voice for women by a Lady called Tahirih where she unveiled in front of men from a Muslim background. Tahirih was put to death in 1852 and her final words were reported to be;

"You can kill me as soon as you like, but you cannot stop the emancipation of women."

Giving a voice to Tahirih - the 19th century Persian suffragette

View attachment 26582

So the question is how do Men and Women find this Equality?

The pole questions give food for thought, or you may have another thought?

Regards Tony

We have to separate the illusion of equality from the reality of equality.
Men and women are not equal; they are fundamentally different.

To say men and women are equal requires a qualification on equality. In other words, you must pronounce in what way they are equal (or what quality that is the same in each of them), because they are definitely not, in all ways, equal.

"No taxation without representation" is a slogan from the 1700s that captures the way in which people are equal. The path is clear: men and women cannot live under a set of rules that do not represent them. This is certainly not the same thing as having the same rules for men and women.

Having the same rules for men and women is a farce. We should have rules that accurately reflect the interests of men and women and not have rules that conform to an arbitrary ideal or agenda which does inherently reflect their genuine interests.

For example, having a rule that men and women must dress the same is silly. Men should not be compelled to wear bras and women should not be compelled to wear loin clothes. It would be a silly rule that doesn't represent their interests. Let's get a little bit more precise: if a man wants a good-fitting set of clothes for himself, it behooves him to visit a tailor who designs men's clothing; if a woman wants a good-fitting set of clothes for herself, then it behooves her to visit a tailor who designs women's clothing. If a women tried to wear men's pants, she would find that her hips are too tight because men's hips aren't as wide. If a man tried to wear women's clothing he would find corresponding inconveniences in his attire. So, in what sense are we to consider men and women's clothing equal? They aren't equal from an apparent and obvious physical form point of view.

The manner in which they are equal is that their interests both be represented. So when a woman picks out her clothing it is certainly not necessary that we provide equal opportunity (that is that women have the option of buying men's clothing in the women's section of the store and that men have the option of buying women's clothing in the men's section of the store)! Rather it should be that the interests of women are represented in the women's clothing section of the store just as men's interests are represented in the men's clothing section of the store.

The fundamental point of importance is that men and women have their interests adequately represented. This is a communication issue, men and women must communicate their interests to each other and to the general public and, in particular, that means that laws should not be made concerning men and women without a proper representation of their interests. And, yes, those interests are going to conflict. They will give rise to gender battles about whether or not the toilet seat should be left up or left down. And sometimes there won't be a right answer or a wrong answer; they will just have to come together and reach a compromise and one day they may eventually arrive at a deeper understanding of each other and of each other's differences and wonder why they were ever arguing with each other in the first place.

TL;DR
Equality of opportunity is a farce. Men and women require equal representation of their interests and should not be bound by legislation without representation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We have to separate the illusion of equality from the reality of equality.
Men and women are not equal; they are fundamentally different.

To say men and women are equal requires a qualification on equality. In other words, you must pronounce in what way they are equal (or what quality that is the same in each of them), because they are definitely not, in all ways, equal.

"No taxation without representation" is a slogan from the 1700s that captures the way in which people are equal. The path is clear: men and women cannot live under a set of rules that do not represent them. This is certainly not the same thing as having the same rules for men and women.

Having the same rules for men and women is a farce. We should have rules that accurately reflect the interests of men and women and not have rules that conform to an arbitrary ideal or agenda which does inherently reflect their genuine interests.

For example, having a rule that men and women must dress the same is silly. Men should not be compelled to wear bras and women should not be compelled to wear loin clothes. It would be a silly rule that doesn't represent their interests. Let's get a little bit more precise: if a man wants a good-fitting set of clothes for himself, it behooves him to visit a tailor who designs men's clothing; if a woman wants a good-fitting set of clothes for herself, then it behooves her to visit a tailor who designs women's clothing. If a women tried to wear men's pants, she would find that her hips are too tight because men's hips aren't as wide. If a man tried to wear women's clothing he would find corresponding inconveniences in his attire. So, in what sense are we to consider men and women's clothing equal? They aren't equal from an apparent and obvious physical form point of view.

The manner in which they are equal is that their interests both be represented. So when a woman picks out her clothing it is certainly not necessary that we provide equal opportunity (that is that women have the option of buying men's clothing in the women's section of the store and that men have the option of buying women's clothing in the men's section of the store)! Rather it should be that the interests of women are represented in the women's clothing section of the store just as men's interests are represented in the men's clothing section of the store.

The fundamental point of importance is that men and women have their interests adequately represented. This is a communication issue, men and women must communicate their interests to each other and to the general public and, in particular, that means that laws should not be made concerning men and women without a proper representation of their interests. And, yes, those interests are going to conflict. They will give rise to gender battles about whether or not the toilet seat should be left up or left down. And sometimes there won't be a right answer or a wrong answer; they will just have to come together and reach a compromise and one day they may eventually arrive at a deeper understanding of each other and of each other's differences and wonder why they were ever arguing with each other in the first place.

TL;DR
Equality of opportunity is a farce. Men and women require equal representation of their interests and should not be bound by legislation without representation.

You bring up some good points and some debatable points. The most notable debatable point was your last comment.

Equality of opportunity is a farce. Men and women require equal representation of their interests and should not be bound by legislation without representation.

In the Baha'i Faith it is advised;

"Until the reality of equality between man and woman is fully established and attained, the highest social development of mankind is not possible. Even granted that woman is inferior to man in some degree of capacity or accomplishment, this or any other distinction would continue to be productive of discord and trouble. The only remedy is education, opportunity; for equality means equal qualification."

Thus being granted access to education and all opportunity gives women equality to gain qualification. Thus their full potential can be realised.

Regards Tony

 

[Niblo]

I have a wife; a sister; two sisters-in-law; two daughters; a daughter-in-law; a granddaughter; four aunts; four nieces; and a female cat. I know my place.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have a wife; a sister; two sisters-in-law; two daughters; a daughter-in-law; a granddaughter; four aunts; four nieces; and a female cat. I know my place.

What do you think the Quran says about Women?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So your Faith, the Bahai Faith, denies women the right to have a say in Universal affairs on your World assembly.

Tony....... !

No not at all, I see they have been exempted from service on the Universal House of Justice, which frees them to pursue these noble goals in life in the many feilds of service available.

One would have to understand the function of the Universal House of Justice and structure of Baha'i Administration to know if one wants to change the world, then change ones own self before and then at grass roots level put into action that change.

It is not a Baha'i virtue to strive to serve on the Universal House of Justice, it happens each 5 years as per the Lawful process.

Regards Tony

 

[Ponder This]

You bring up some good points and some debatable points. The most notable debatable point was your last comment.



In the Baha'i Faith it is advised;

"Until the reality of equality between man and woman is fully established and attained, the highest social development of mankind is not possible. Even granted that woman is inferior to man in some degree of capacity or accomplishment, this or any other distinction would continue to be productive of discord and trouble. The only remedy is education, opportunity; for equality means equal qualification."

Thus being granted access to education and all opportunity gives women equality to gain qualification. Thus their full potential can be realised.

Regards Tony

He claims the sense of equality is in the quality of opportunity, which it is definitely not the case.
The sense of equality is in representation, which leads to the opening of opportunities.
Bypassing representation to create equality of opportunity is putting the cart before the horse. Perhaps it makes sense as compensation in places where representation has been denied (places without horses), but it makes no sense in places where women are properly represented (places with horses).

You mention 'full potential' but who's potential is being realized? The potential of women? Or rather is it an arbitrary expectation placed upon women? Putting the cart before the horse will surely lead to discord and trouble (and it has).

 

[Thief]

I found my equal

and married her

 

[Vinayaka]

You can never have gender equality. The term 'equality' is a poor term. We're not all born equal. Anyone who thinks that is blind, and needs to look around just a little.

What we can have is respect for each and every human, regardless of gender, race, religion. ethnicity, etc. 'Equality' is another vague term like 'unity' that sounds nice, but is essentially meaningless in reality.