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Enlightenment

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Freedom from suffering seems a bit far reaching if not somewhat unachievable and less secure in terms of development. I'm fairly sure suffering is part of the life experience and helps to navigate our courses. The same would be true for its opposite. They create a channel ... so to speak. I'm curious how one can be enlightened yet ignorant when the term implies an enlightened or deeper understanding of life, unless you're referring to the channel concept and the suffering seems less severe, being just part of life and development.
Pain is a part of life experience. Suffering is a choice.

I've posted this a few times on the forum in discussions regarding suffering and its cause...

Buddhism speaks of two arrows. When adversity comes, two arrows fly in our direction. Being struck by an arrow is painful. What determines suffering is how one reacts to being struck. One can focus on the pain of that first arrow and remain ignorant of the trajectory of the second, and be struck again which leads to suffering, or one can be aware that the pain of the first arrow is what it is, and shift focus to being aware that a second arrow is approaching and get out of the way.

The moral of the story is that you can focus on what is bringing you distress, or you can accept that what is causing pain is temporary and will run its course, do your best to navigate through, focus on the big picture, and have gratitude for that which is in the world that brings you contentment.

Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I perceive it as a kind of conceptual transcendence.

Around the turn of the last century someone wrote a book called "Flatlands". In it, all the characters were two dimensional shapes living on a two dimensional plane. And at one point in the story, one of the characters gets knocked off the plane, and out into three dimensional space. Where it is now able to observe and understand the two dimensional world in which it had been living in a whole new way.

That, I think, is an extravagant example of enlightenment. An example of conceptual transcendence that resolves the paradox of one's previous concept of truth and reality.

It's not usually something one achieves by trying. It's more of an "eureka! moment" that happens once one has accumulated enough of the right questions and information for it all to suddenly sort itself out and be recognized.
There are different levels of thinking. If one could only think in 1-D, all could do is memorize the bottom lines of knowledge; greatest hits, but never fully understanding why these are the bottom lines. You could repeat all the words and bottom lines of knowledge, but never really know why; dogmatic world view.

Deeper understanding will require reason, which is 2-D; cause and affect. With the power of reason we can better understand how all the things, we memorized as 1-D dogma, were derived and apply in terms of cause and affect. Enlightenment is based on spatial or 3-D thought, which takes reasoning or 2-D thought, to the next level, by adding a z-axis.

In the story of Flatlands, everyone is living in the 2-D world of reason; cause and affect. Reason can be used to deduce and infer many things, based not only on what one can see, but also based on your foundation premises. In flatland, all your reasoning has to assume a 2-D flat world. You can still infer what your neighbor should look like, bu one has to assume a flat world to play this game of inference and deduction.

At one time, it was common to believe that the earth was flat. If you accepted that foundation premise; opinion of the consensus of experts, your sense of good reasoning would naturally infer that the flat earth should have edges, like a piece of paper that ends on four sides. This is a valid rational inference, based on your flatland foundation premise. That conclusion will appear irrational to the contemporary world, but it is still valid reasoning, based on the foundation premise of a flat earth. Reasoning is only as good as the foundation it is built upon.

Once the earth was understood to be 3-D; spherical, the old foundation premise of flat land earth no longer applied, no matter how you hard you try to reason or force it onto others to memorize. A new 3-D world view opened. It was still the exact same old world, but now seen with different eyes, all due to the new foundation premise; earth is spherical. In terms of history, the idea of the spherical earth opened the rational mind to a whole new sense of rational reality; earth spins instead of the sun moving over the earth, was now the new rational inference; Age of Enlightenment chain reaction.

One path to enlightenment, that I found as a young engineer, was to put on the virtual coveralls and explore the sub-basement of the contemporary house of knowledge. I wanted to look at the foundation premises and all its support pillar premises on which all the socially accepted rational knowledge and inference was built.

Most people can reason, but many will also just accept certain things or foundation premises such as BB or Evolution. We then learn and contribute by building within the premises of this accepted house of knowledge. However, deep in the sub basement of knowledge, I found cracks. Areas like science, were continuing to build upward, but the foundation premises were not designed for all that extra load. I try to point out certain things; flaws in the foundation premises, to force enlightenment. But that has had limited success since most do not understand how this foundation structures your thinking; loops on itself. I decided to use my enlightenment to build a new conceptual foundation, nearby.

For example, water is the one molecule in life that is very durable and conservative; built by fire. Water is everywhere in life and touches everything in life. Water is also self organizing via hydrogen bonding and can transmit information with free energy muscle. Water offers a 3-D way to integrate anything and everything within life. But biology is still in the flatlands, using an oracle to navigate, while not wishing to leave, flatland. I build nearby, anyway, since the cracks are getting worse,
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
There are different levels of thinking. If one could only think in 1-D, all could do is memorize the bottom lines of knowledge; greatest hits, but never fully understanding why these are the bottom lines. You could repeat all the words and bottom lines of knowledge, but never really know why; dogmatic world view.

Deeper understanding will require reason, which is 2-D; cause and affect. With the power of reason we can better understand how all the things, we memorized as 1-D dogma, were derived and apply in terms of cause and affect. Enlightenment is based on spatial or 3-D thought, which takes reasoning or 2-D thought, to the next level, by adding a z-axis.

In the story of Flatlands, everyone is living in the 2-D world of reason; cause and affect. Reason can be used to deduce and infer many things, based not only on what one can see, but also based the foundation premises. In flatland, all your reasoning has to assume a 2-D flat world. You can still infer what your neighbor should look like, if one assumes a flat world.

At one time, it was common to believe that the earth was flat. If you accepted that foundation premise; opinion of the consensus of experts, your sense of good reasoning would naturally infer that the flat earth should have edges, like a piece of paper that ends on four sides. This is a valid rational inference, based on your flatland foundation premise. That conclusion will appear irrational to the contemporary world, but it is still valid reasoning, based on the foundation premise of a flat earth. Reasoning is only as good as the foundation it is built upon.

Once the earth was understood to be 3-D; spherical, the old foundation premise of flat land earth no longer applied, no matter how you hard you try to reason or force it onto others to memorize. A new 3-D world view opened. It was still the exact same old world, but now seen with different eyes, all due to the new foundation premise; earth is spherical. In terms of history, the idea of the spherical earth opened the rational mind to a whole new sense of reality; earth spins instead of the sun moving over the earth, was now the new rational inference; an Age of Enlightenment chain reaction.

One path to enlightenment, that I found as a young engineer, was to put on the coveralls and explore the sub-basement of the contemporary house of knowledge. I wanted to look at its foundation premises and all its support pillar premises on which all the socially accepted knowledge was built.

Most people can reason, but most will also just accept certain things; BB or Evolution, and contribute by building within the premises of this accepted house of knowledge. However, deep in the sub basement of knowledge, I found cracks. Areas like science, were continuing to build upward, but the foundation premises were not designed for all that extra load. I try to point out certain things; flaws in the foundation premises, to force enlightenment. I also decided to use my enlightenment to build a new foundation.

For example, water is the one molecule in life that is very conservative and everywhere and touches everything in life. Water is self organizing and can transmit information with free energy muscle. Water offers a 3-D way to integrate anything and everything within life. But biology is still in the flatlands, using an oracle to navigate; flatlands with an oracle. I build anyway.

Yeah, there is your thinking and then there is mine and they are different. So you are wrong for your thinking because mine is the right one and I can prove that. My thinking makes sense to me, so it is true and thus you are wrong. ;)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I don't understand the concept of enlightenment, nor why anyone would choose it if what I've read of it is anything remotely accurate. Can anyone explain the benefits?
Dosent matter. Can't take it with you when you die.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't understand the concept of enlightenment, nor why anyone would choose it if what I've read of it is anything remotely accurate. Can anyone explain the benefits?
Enlightenment is an awakening to the Absolute. To realize the nature of Reality beyond our normal views of reality which are created by things like language and cultural frameworks. It is metaphorically speaking, pulling back the veil of illusion and seeing the Truth, as it is.

But it is not a propositional, rational, conceptual truth, which is relative, but rather it is an embrace of what is Infinite and timeless, that is realized as who and what you truly are, as opposed to this separate, limited, sack of skin you call you and the world you think you know through your own mind.

It is the experience of the Ineffable, the Absolute, the Ground of Being, the Source, God, Light, Love, Life, as it is, unfiltered and unmediated through the peceptual lens of our separate self. "I and my Father are One", is a nice metaphoric way to express that.

I see Enlightenment and the idea of Salvation, as one and the same, once you strip away all that theological window dressing from that term. It's an Oneness with Source, or "reconciliation with the Divine". It's the mystical realization that is the heart of all authentic religious experience.
Freedom from suffering seems a bit far reaching if not somewhat unachievable and less secure in terms of development.
The language differences can be a barrier here. There is a difference between suffering and pain. We will experience pain in this life, but suffering is what we do to ourselves. Holding onto the pain, fearing the pain, worry, stress, clinging to the pain, resentments, unforgiveness, and all of those things are what create suffering. Pain happens, suffering is created by ourselves.

The Buddha spoke of the 'second arrow'. The first arrow is inflicted upon us and causes pain. The second arrow is us stabbing the same wound with the arrow, which is ten times as painful. And we keep doing it, poking that wound. This is why "clinging creates suffering". It's holding onto things, it's worrying about things, etc.

This is why you find in all great Wisdom traditions, which teach the path of liberation, or "Enlightenment" to "Take no thought for tomorrow, for tomorrow has enough concerns for itself", or "judge not lest you be judged,", or "forgive us as we forgive others", and other teachings of compassion and non-violence in life. These are all obstacles to Liberation, or Salvation, or Enlightenment.
I'm curious how one can be enlightened yet ignorant when the term implies an enlightened or deeper understanding of life, unless you're referring to the channel concept and the suffering seems less severe, being just part of life and development.
One thing to reiterate about Enlightenment, it is NOT a conceptual idea. It's not something realized by deductive reasoning. It is Realized by letting go of all of that. It is a pulling back of the veil of the mind, and seeing beyond its limits. It is literally "beyond belief", or beyond conceptualizations.

It is beyond words. It engages our entire being, body, mind, soul, and spirit. It is Light itself, flooding our being, and us becoming That. "Thou art That", as the Hindu scripture puts it. "I live, and yet not I but Christ in me", as Paul puts it. It is not an idea on paper, but a living Realization.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Knowing yourself, knowing the many different ways of the world, and knowing what makes life worth living and cultivating that instead of the ways of the world that are no good. That to me is enlightenment. Forgive what is forgivable, love that which is loveable. Live honestly with good will.
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
Enlightenment is an awakening to the Absolute. To realize the nature of Reality beyond our normal views of reality which are created by things like language and cultural frameworks. It is metaphorically speaking, pulling back the veil of illusion and seeing the Truth, as it is.

But it is not a propositional, rational, conceptual truth, which is relative, but rather it is an embrace of what is Infinite and timeless, that is realized as who and what you truly are, as opposed to this separate, limited, sack of skin you call you and the world you think you know through your own mind.

It is the experience of the Ineffable, the Absolute, the Ground of Being, the Source, God, Light, Love, Life, as it is, unfiltered and unmediated through the peceptual lens of our separate self. "I and my Father are One", is a nice metaphoric way to express that.

I see Enlightenment and the idea of Salvation, as one and the same, once you strip away all that theological window dressing from that term. It's an Oneness with Source, or "reconciliation with the Divine". It's the mystical realization that is the heart of all authentic religious experience.

The language differences can be a barrier here. There is a difference between suffering and pain. We will experience pain in this life, but suffering is what we do to ourselves. Holding onto the pain, fearing the pain, worry, stress, clinging to the pain, resentments, unforgiveness, and all of those things are what create suffering. Pain happens, suffering is created by ourselves.

The Buddha spoke of the 'second arrow'. The first arrow is inflicted upon us and causes pain. The second arrow is us stabbing the same wound with the arrow, which is ten times as painful. And we keep doing it, poking that wound. This is why "clinging creates suffering". It's holding onto things, it's worrying about things, etc.

This is why you find in all great Wisdom traditions, which teach the path of liberation, or "Enlightenment" to "Take no thought for tomorrow, for tomorrow has enough concerns for itself", or "judge not lest you be judged,", or "forgive us as we forgive others", and other teachings of compassion and non-violence in life. These are all obstacles to Liberation, or Salvation, or Enlightenment.

One thing to reiterate about Enlightenment, it is NOT a conceptual idea. It's not something realized by deductive reasoning. It is Realized by letting go of all of that. It is a pulling back of the veil of the mind, and seeing beyond its limits. It is literally "beyond belief", or beyond conceptualizations.

It is beyond words. It engages our entire being, body, mind, soul, and spirit. It is Light itself, flooding our being, and us becoming That. "Thou art That", as the Hindu scripture puts it. "I live, and yet not I but Christ in me", as Paul puts it. It is not an idea on paper, but a living Realization.

From what I gather from your post, it's more of an acknowledgment and awareness of our connection with existence that extends beyond the experience of self. Are you suggesting an empathetic type of reality where we are able to tap into what those around us are feeling also? In it's simplest form, it appears to be about seeing more clearly with our senses on through our subjective and objective experiences and how the energy perceived is processed by us.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Knowing yourself, knowing the many different ways of the world, and knowing what makes life worth living and cultivating that instead of the ways of the world that are no good. That to me is enlightenment. Forgive what is forgivable, love that which is loveable. Live honestly with good will.
A lot of eastern philosophy would propose that enlightenment is not found in the acquisition of knowledge, or even wisdom, but in the letting go of it, to the very purpose you suggest ... to simply be what we are, humbly, honestly, spontaneously, and generously.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
From what I gather from your post, it's more of an acknowledgment and awareness of our connection with existence that extends beyond the experience of self.
I don't care for the word acknowledge, as that suggests a mental cognition, like the acceptance of a propositional truth. Awareness is a good word however. Illumination is good as well. The best metaphors are having the blinders removed and seeing Reality as it is.

One of my favorite metaphors in the Bible is the story of the veil in the temple being ripped from top to bottom as Jesus died. The symbolism of this captures the Enlightenment experience well. The veil separates the external world of form, from the Holy of Holies, or the interior room with the Divine Presence resides. The veil represents the flesh, or the earthly mind that interfaces with visible world of form, which inside the Divine remains concealed. Upon the death, or surrender of the flesh, or the mind, the veil is torn apart and the Presence of the Divine bursts forth into the world.

Quite literally, that is what it is experienced like. What was hidden, is now revealed. The Divine is seen and recognized "Face to Face", and we "Know, even as we are known". We then recognize what we thought we knew and believed to be truth, was "seeing through a glass darkly". The Hindus describe that as maya, or the world of illusion. We mistake what we perceive through the mind as reality, as reality itself.
Are you suggesting an empathetic type of reality where we are able to tap into what those around us are feeling also?
In a sense. We become able to see through the eyes of compassion at deeper levels once we are out of ourselves, so to speak. I wouldn't believe that to include mind-reading however. :)

I can relate my experience only here, and say that when I was younger I had a spontaneous Awakening experience, where the 'veil' was pulled back and I experienced that profound state of Oneness with all that was arising in the moment in everything.

I describe is as living Light, Love, and Life itself radiating from everything, every blade of grass, every molecule of air, from the earth, from the sky, and then from the most unimaginable, unfathomable depth below, burst forth that self-same wellspring of Life itself up through me out into the world in an exchange of the living, Infinite, energetic Love and Light, from everything, to everything, and through everything, which instantly transformed my entire being.

At that moment, there were three young people walking towards me, and I could see this radiant Light coming from each of them as it was in everything else. I felt absolute Joy, Love, and fearlessness at that moment. But I was struck by seeing their eyes, and how that none of them seemed aware of what and who they were, what I was seeing that they were. I felt this almost sympathetic bewilderment at their unawareness, but also a recognition that that was how I had been living my life, trapped inside of my own isolated "thought world" as I later recognized it.

It was the unreality of my own mind, that world of illusion, that they each like I had been were trapped within. It is the "normal" human condition of the metaphorical "fall", where we experience separation from the Divine, into the world of "sin", but understood as blindness to what is, or unawareness of Reality, or God.

That experience subsided for me, and of course I 'fell' back into the separate self. But it forever changed me and set my path on the path of return Home to that. What was spontaneous in my youth, is a gradual return in my older years. But my point here, that yes, I could relate empathetically to others, and do now to varying degrees, in my continuing growth, but not mind reading.

One thing of curious note to make here though, is that empathetically, I am finding greater connections with animals and they with me. I have been surprised to see how close rabbit in my backyard are willing to be close to me. They literally walk slowly right past me while I am standing there, within a couple feet of me. I could just stick my foot out and tap it. It's like "hello there!" LOL. It's strange and surprising, but not at the same time. :)

Honestly, I think it's just that animals can pick up on feeling safe energetically from others. And the other was around as well. So in that sense, that living connection does increase the more we are out of our own anxious 'thought world', or separation, and the more we are seeing and listening and participating in the Divine, or Reality. It's all about increasing Awareness and living connection, I am learning.

In it's simplest form, it appears to be about seeing more clearly with our senses on through our subjective and objective experiences and how the energy perceived is processed by us.
I would say so. Aside from the spontaneous experience, for it to become a permanent condition, this is something we need to cultivate and practice and become. This is where the teachings of Wisdom traditions come in, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", help to eliminate obstacles that block that connection with the Divine.

There are of course other things, such as meditation practices, physical practices such as bodily awareness and health, etc. We are after all, in the flesh, and if the flesh itself in unwell, it affects the whole. Spirituality is body, mind, soul and spirit together. Not just transcendence, but grounding. A kite skittering away untethered, is not truly a kite soaring in the heavens above.

That is to me what it means to be Enlightened. Head in the clouds, with the feet firmly planted on the earth. That to me is the meaning of the Incarnation, or the Son of God. A child of God and a child of Earth.
 
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