El Paso Texas today active shooter Walmart - 18 reportedly shot- (news video & print article)

[Shad]

No they are not.

Assertion with no counter evidence.

But if 58,000 suicides could be made by guns in only two years, then access to guns would be an issue anyway.

Sure but that shifts the issue to self-harm as a majority. The issue becomes about mental health are a primary not merely guns.

But only about a third of that number are suicides.

Nope. It is about 60% are suicides.

And the closer number is 66,000 gun deaths in two years.

In which 60% are suicides.

The gun injury number is just huge.

Sure.

I seem to remember how brave you have felt in previous conversations about gun crime and home security, and how pathetic and cowardly you have thought my ideas about simple home security and crime prevention have been.

The only option you proposed was running away when not everyone can do that. Your solution was flawed.

You will notice that in a massively packed store in El Paso no gun carrier came forward to stop that mass-murderer? What would you have done if you had been there? Hero? Just askin'.....................

No idea as I was not there.

Remember my points were about home invasion. You seem to forgotten that.

 

[oldbadger]

Yet it 's precisely this sort of event that the gun fetish wallys would have you believe they need to be going armed in general public for.

I agree there are occasions when a civilian may use a gun for defence legitimately (although, I think the number of cases where a gun is the best option, practical, and doesn't needlessly escalate a situation are far lower than popularly imagined). It's the people for whom a gun is a security blanket and penis extension I have a problem with, who say it's about "self defence" but for whom it's actually a crutch. Guns have legitimate uses. Generally speaking, though, in most cases, most of the time, I think guns either do nothing to increase security, or actively decrease it in private hands. I remember a case from a couple of years ago. Some guy hammered on a woman's door in the middle of the night, she opened the door, he tried to force his way in, so she shot him. Gun fetishests will claim that as an instance of using a gun in self defence. I think, however, that if she hadn't had a gun, the door would have stayed closed, and both would have survived the encounter. I sincerely think that MOST civilian gun usages in self defence follow similar or comparable lines. You take risks when you're armed you wouldn't unarmed.

I'll bet that the number of innocents shot by hysterically frightened gun owners is high. Very high.

And I can just imagine how many gun owners will come outside to brandish and point guns at strangers when all they needed to do was stay indoors. And later they will insist how their gun saved them.

 

[columbus]

There's more than one place in the US. I'd carry a gun in El Paso too. That place is crazy.

So, why would you even go to El Paso?

Here's a story:
A young acolyte of Gandhi asked him how he could really be a pacifist?
Acolyte: "But if you were walking down a dark alley, and somebody attacked you, how could you avoid responding with violence?"
Gandhi: "I don't walk down dark alleys."

Tom

 

[Left Coast]

Ah, but you shouldn't if being disarmed lessens crime and is superior to people owning guns.

In 2018 for a very short time the homicide rate in London was higher than that of New York City, USA.
USA Today failed to mention the short period in which those statistics were accrued. However, the numbers were there none the less.
Lies, Damned Lies, And Statistics: Why London's Murder Rate Is Not Higher Than NYC's - bellingcat

Micro/macro. The fact that in one city for a very short time the homicide rate was higher doesn't erase the broader trend.

And just because the UK law abiding citizens were disarmed by government doesn't mean violent crimes don't occur. The weapon now is also knives. That's up close and personal murder.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/apr/25/homicides-in-england-and-wales-hit-
40,829 knife offences were recorded in England and Wales in 2018, up 16,884 on 2013-14


Homicides in England and Wales 2019 | Statista

Apparently you've never heard the expression about bringing a knife to a gun fight...

Turns out, knives are less deadly.

 

[SugarOcean]

Micro/macro. The fact that in one city for a very short time the homicide rate was higher doesn't erase the broader trend.



Apparently you've never heard the expression about bringing a knife to a gun fight...

Turns out, knives are less deadly.

When guns are outlawed violent people will find a way. The only reason knives are less deadly is because bullets travel faster than a blade.

Don't forget cleavers and machete's. Lee Rigby. God have mercy.
I wouldn't want to be impacted by either one.

 

[oldbadger]

Assertion with no counter evidence.

Of course. You never ever before knew the gun-killing figures, but you knew the % of suicides. Right.

Here we go..............
Nearly 40,000 People Died From Guns in U.S. Last Year, Highest in 50 Years

There were 39,773 gun deaths in 2017, up by more than 1,000 from the year before.
26250 were suicides.
13523 gun killings = 37 gun killings per day

UK............
There were 726 homicides (Any method) in the year ending March 2018, 20 more (3% increase) than in the previous year. = 2 per day

----------------

But the UK has only 25% of the US population so the figure must be multiplied by 4 = 8 killings per day by any method.

Gun killings USA average 37 per day
All killings UK average (corrected to USA average) 8 per day

Now you know the figures. You're never going to need to ask anyone again.


-----------------------------------------------

Crime Prevention does cover home intrusion prevention, and it also covers everyday living.
I met a real coward (not) at Saturday's boot-fair (yesterday). Gosh, what a woose (not) ! I watched him buy a lookalike Cartier Men's watch from a stall for £10. It was a very good lookalike. He told me that he collects both real and good lookalike Cartiers, and if he goes to London he always wears a lookalike. I laughed and told him that I agreed that he could throw down or hand over such a watch to save from injury or death.
You'd probably expect him to buy a handgun and be prepared to stand his ground (Hero - not) but I suspect that he's got a much much higher Intelligence quotient than that.
And I'll bet that his home security is beyond your knowledge. Way beyond!

 

[oldbadger]

When guns are outlawed violent people will find a way. The only reason knives are less deadly is because bullets travel faster than a blade.

Don't forget cleavers and machete's. Lee Rigby. God have mercy.
I wouldn't want to be impacted by either one.

Christians talking about guns. Love it!

It's not about outlawing guns..... that's just hysteria, it's about common sense gun controls.

Gun controls is all about :-
Gun courses.
Gun Licences.
Gun 'all risks' compulsory insurance.
Criminal Record Checks.
Psychology reports.
Compulsory Home security and Home Safes.

 

[Left Coast]

When guns are outlawed violent people will find a way. The only reason knives are less deadly is because bullets travel faster than a blade.

I'd like to see you kill 9 people and injure over twenty others in less than two minutes with a knife.

Ohio Shooting Leaves Nine Dead

Sorry, not gonna happen. This carnage only occurs because of the kind of weapons our country is drowning in.

 

[SugarOcean]

I'd like to see you kill 9 people and injure over twenty others in less than two minutes with a knife.

Ohio Shooting Leaves Nine Dead

Sorry, not gonna happen. This carnage only occurs because of the kind of weapons our country is drowning in.

You'd like to see that? How odd.


May 2019 Japan
16 hurt and two killed as man stabs young girls waiting for bus in Japan

multiple people killed knife weilding man at DuckDuckGo


People who carry guns saving lives from maniacs with guns isn't something that gets the blanket coverage the others do.

2018 Arizona USA
Arizona Woman Shoots Hatchet-Wielding Man Outside Store

Man Who Stopped New Zealand Mosque Rampage Turns Out to Be 'Good Guy With a Gun'


Off-duty police officer stops shooter at movie theater


Guns aren't the problem. Crazy people,sick minds, are the problem.
Guns don't cause mass murder any more than spoons cause obesity and beer steins cause alcoholism.

It is the mind of the alcoholic, the mind of the glutton, the mind of the nut that thinks killing people is a good idea to solve whatever ills they think exist in this world.
The first murder in history was committed without a gun. Though the weapon isn't recorded, Cain murdered his brother Able over jealousy.

 

[Left Coast]

You'd like to see that? How odd.


May 2019 Japan
16 hurt and two killed as man stabs young girls waiting for bus in Japan

16 hurt, 2 killed. I asked for 9 killed and over 20 hurt. In under 2 minutes. Or how about 50 killed as in Vegas?

The idea that it's just as easy to kill people with a knife as with a gun is ridiculous, and I think you know that. If that were true, we'd see homicide weapon stats that were comparable between the two. But we don't. What do we see? The vast, vast majority of homicides are committed with guns in this country. There's a painfully obvious reason for that.

People who carry guns saving lives from maniacs with guns isn't something that gets the blanket coverage the others do.

If maniacs didnt have guns in the first place, good guys with guns wouldn't be necessary.

Also, look at the FBI's own stats on that. The vast majority of active shooter situations are not resolved by civilian good guys with guns.

Guns aren't the problem. Crazy people,sick minds, are the problem.
Guns don't cause mass murder any more than spoons cause obesity and beer steins cause alcoholism.

America does not have a monopoly on crazy. There are crazy people in every country on Earth. We do, however, have wildly disproproportionate number of gun deaths and mass shootings. The, again, painfully obvious reason for that is because our crazies have guns.

It is the mind of the alcoholic, the mind of the glutton, the mind of the nut that thinks killing people is a good idea to solve whatever ills they think exist in this world.

I agree, that is a problem. But a problem that compounds that problem is the belief that having more guns available in our society will solve our ills and make us safer, which is simply not true.

 

[SugarOcean]

16 hurt, 2 killed. I asked for 9 killed and over 20 hurt. In under 2 minutes. Or how about 50 killed as in Vegas?

The idea that it's just as easy to kill people with a knife as with a gun is ridiculous, and I think you know that. If that were true, we'd see homicide weapon stats that were comparable between the two. But we don't. What do we see? The vast, vast majority of homicides are committed with guns in this country. There's a painfully obvious reason for that.



If maniacs didnt have guns in the first place, good guys with guns wouldn't be necessary.

What you aren't considering is that gun control laws only impact those who obey the laws.

Also, look at the FBI's own stats on that. The vast majority of active shooter situations are not resolved by civilian good guys with guns

. True , they're brought to a conclusion by armed members of the Executive branch of government; cops.
However, civilians in the line of fire are there in most cases before the cops. One armed civilian trained to use a firearm can bring that bloodbath to a quick end.

America does not have a monopoly on crazy. There are crazy people in every country on Earth. We do, however, have wildly disproproportionate number of gun deaths and mass shootings. The, again, painfully obvious reason for that is because our crazies have guns.

If guns were never invented, such crazies would find a different way to express their violent insanity.

I agree, that is a problem. But a problem that compounds that problem is the belief that having more guns available in our society will solve our ills and make us safer, which is simply not true.

Well,considering the number of citizens in America, over 300 million, and the number of gun owners among that number, the actual facts are that the crazy gun wielding loons are the minority number.

In other words, more law abiding citizens own guns than are there crazy gun wielding lunatics killing people.
And the evidence also proves that in countries where the law abiding have been disarmed by law, there remains gun violence and violence with other weapons statistics.
So taking away guns doesn't make a country peace filled. It simply makes the law abiding sitting ducks for those who can garner weapons any time they wish.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'd like to see you kill 9 people and injure over twenty others in less than two minutes with a knife.

Ohio Shooting Leaves Nine Dead

Sorry, not gonna happen. This carnage only occurs because of the kind of weapons our country is drowning in.

It did happen. And then in one of the most gun-controlled and least free countries in the world. China.


Maybe you shouldn't look at photo of the bloody floor then. Knife attacks are messy.

Knife-wielding attackers kill 29 at China train station - CNN

Oh by the way, Japan too..

Japan knife attack: At least 19 dead - CNN

Want more?

 

[Left Coast]

What you aren't considering is that gun control laws only impact those who obey the laws.

By that logic, we should have no laws at all, because they only impact those who obey them.

The issue is enforcement and scope, as with all laws.

True , they're brought to a conclusion by armed members of the Executive branch of government; cops.

I don't have a problem with cops carrying guns at this point in our country's history. But the only reason this is necessary is because so many civilians carry them.

However, civilians in the line of fire are there in most cases before the cops. One armed civilian trained to use a firearm can bring that bloodbath to a quick end.

I realize this is the conservative idea, but it does not bear out in actual reality, as I mentioned.

If guns were never invented, such crazies would find a different way to express their violent insanity.

They just wouldn't be as lethal, as in the UK. Again, I'll take it.

Well,considering the number of citizens in America, over 300 million, and the number of gun owners among that number, the actual facts are that the crazy gun wielding loons are the minority number.

In other words, more law abiding citizens own guns than are there crazy gun wielding lunatics killing people.

And yet we have huge rates of gun violence. So everyone having a gun isn't working, contrary to conservative ideals.

You're also overlooking the fact that it's not just "crazies" who kill others with guns. Lots of deaths occur by accident. Lots of deaths are crimes of passion by otherwise sane, "normal" people.

And the evidence also proves that in countries where the law abiding have been disarmed by law, there remains gun violence and violence with other weapons statistics.

There is vastly less gun crime in countries where fewer people own guns. This is so obvious I don't think I need to find a link. But I will if you want.

So taking away guns doesn't make a country peace filled. It simply makes the law abiding sitting ducks for those who can garner weapons any time they wish.

Again, other weapons aren't as effective at killing people. No one claims that fewer people owning guns will magically make everyone sing kumbayah. It is simply reality that if fewer people own guns, fewer people have the opportunity to use them. And thus fewer people will die from them.

 

[Left Coast]

It did happen. And then in one of the most gun-controlled and least free countries in the world. China.


Maybe you shouldn't look at photo of the bloody floor then. Knife attacks are messy.

Knife-wielding attackers kill 29 at China train station - CNN

Oh by the way, Japan too..

Japan knife attack: At least 19 dead - CNN

Want more?

No, this will do:

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

The idea that knives are just as deadly as guns is both absurd on its face (thus the expression "bring a knife to a gunfight"), it is also disingenuous. If knives are just as lethal, and thus just as capable of protecting you in a deadly situation, as guns, why fight so hard against gun regulation? You can just carry a knife and you'll be just as prepared to defend yourself as if you were carrying an AR-15. Right?

 

[Jose Fly]

That would be Mental Health.

After mass shootings, it's pretty common to see conservative Republican politicians make claims about "mental health". But to me, that seems like a way to deflect attention away from stricter gun laws. You know why it seems that way to me? Because when it comes time to actually do something about "mental health", the GOP goes conspicuously silent.

 

[Jose Fly]

Like in England when knife killings out did gun killings.

If I was in a mall and a killer entered, I'd much prefer he have a knife than an AR-15. Do you agree?

 

[Jose Fly]

Sadly I have known some gunowners that swallow the tales of the NRA (National Rifle Association) whole. There is a bit of paranoia in these people. They think that they will avert an attack that never comes and that the government is out to leave them helpless. Conservative or liberal it does not matter, their first concern are their guns.

Meanwhile I am old enough to remember when the NRA was a good thing. I went through one of their rifle programs for kids so that my parents would allow me to hunt on our farm. But something happened to them that sent them down a dark path.

The NRA has been disgustingly effective in one regard....mass shootings are just background noise now. One happens, there's a day or two of coverage and debate, and then we all go back to our lives and nothing changes. Then the next one happens.....

 

[We Never Know]

After mass shootings, it's pretty common to see conservative Republican politicians make claims about "mental health". But to me, that seems like a way to deflect attention away from stricter gun laws. You know why it seems that way to me? Because when it comes time to actually do something about "mental health", the GOP goes conspicuously silent.

Number of Children & Adolescents Taking Psychiatric Drugs in the U.S

Number of Children & Adolescents Taking Psychiatric Drugs in the U.S. | CCHR International

Drug Class: Age Group: Number of People:

All Psychiatric 0-5 Years 622,723
Drugs

Breakdown:
0-1 Years 125,361
2-3 Years 202,319
4-5 Years 306,079

6-12 Years 3,259,955
13-17 Years 3,419,633

Grand Total 0-17 Years 7,213,599 kids on psychiatric drugs

ADHD Drugs 0-5 Years 80,235

Breakdown:
0-1 Years 328
2-3 Years 1,919
4-5 Years 77,396

6-12 Years 2,119,343
13-17 Years 1,524,381

Grand Total 0-17 Years 3,655,472 kids on ADHD Drugs

Antidepressants 0-5 Years 38,534

Breakdown:
0-1 Years 6,687
2-3 Years 10,957
4-5 Years 21,299

6-12 Years 574,090
13-17 Years 1,503,185

Grand Total 0-17 Years 2,100,315 kids on antidepressants

Antipsychotics 0-5 Years 85,143

Breakdown:
0-1 Years 3,913
2-3 Years 27,001
4-5 Years 53,750

6-12 Years 467,500
13-17 Years 646,215

Grand Total 0-17 Years 1,194,805 kids on antipsychotics

Anti-anxiety 0-5 Years 389,558

Breakdown:
0-1 Years 102,960
2-3 Years 148,894
4-5 Years 143,692

6-12 Years 484,612
3-17 Years 577,259

Grand Total 0-17 Years 1,445,509 kids on anti-anxiety drugs

 

[Trailblazer]

Twelve Principles

Lies, clothed in subterfuge.
Hoping some people are gullible enough to believe them.
But no matter...

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

 

[SugarOcean]

By that logic, we should have no laws at all, because they only impact those who obey them.

Incorrect. My example is the example set by the world itself. There are laws that the law abiding obey. And there are laws that are ignored by the criminal element.

The issue is enforcement and scope, as with all laws.

And crime statistics reflect the scope of the law that is disobeyed and that makes the law abiding the targets of those culprits.

I don't have a problem with cops carrying guns at this point in our country's history. But the only reason this is necessary is because so many civilians carry them.

That's a skewed point of view.
Police police communities and enforce the laws that law breakers break.

I realize this is the conservative idea, but it does not bear out in actual reality, as I mentioned.

And you're wrong. As the examples of civilians stopping gun crime, some examples that I have already posted, as well as an off duty officer, are reality. Which you ignored apparently.

They just wouldn't be as lethal, as in the UK. Again, I'll take it.

And yet the UK still has high crime statistics even though guns are outlawed. Which makes your anti-gun rhetoric fail in comparison to reality there.

And yet we have huge rates of gun violence. So everyone having a gun isn't working, contrary to conservative ideals.

Given the ratio of gun ownership to crime by armed offenders?

You're also overlooking the fact that it's not just "crazies" who kill others with guns. Lots of deaths occur by accident. Lots of deaths are crimes of passion by otherwise sane, "normal" people.

Accidental gun deaths and injury are not part of crime statistics.

There is vastly less gun crime in countries where fewer people own guns. This is so obvious I don't think I need to find a link. But I will if you want.

You're not aware that just because guns are outlawed that criminals still obtain guns? And that violent crime in such countries still occur?

Again, other weapons aren't as effective at killing people. No one claims that fewer people owning guns will magically make everyone sing kumbayah. It is simply reality that if fewer people own guns, fewer people have the opportunity to use them. And thus fewer people will die from them.

Lord.