East Asian country steps up brutal sharia laws

[sun rise]

Shows an obvious need for secular governments.

Exactly. I'm no fan of government implementing religious law whether it be Islamic, Christian or any other religion.

 

[sun rise]

Is not Sharia law a matter of interpretation?

Whatever they do, that is what the religion is.

Putting those two statements together is important because what people do is their interpretation of what they believe the religious dictates are. And thus different people do different things based on their own interpretation of religious doctrine.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Hold on there.. Homosexuality is not a death penalty offense.. and neither is apostasy unless its coupled with a murder conviction.

I asked you this already, but since you didn't answer...
Are you stating that 'homosexuality is not a death penalty offence' because it's actually sodomy that is (in some countries, per the OP)?
And if so, how many straight married men do you think will be punished on sodomy charges?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The Quran makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin, but there's no mandate for Muslims to intervene, so it is not a crime. It's only the hadith that assert that being gay is criminal. The Quran does not. I can't find a single case where the Quran gives Muslims any mandate to aggress. They are commanded to defend the innocent from aggression and oppression. There's no mandate to initiate conflict with people for their sins

This still appears to be disingenuous, unless you're claiming Islamic countries are run based on Quranist principles. But you're not, are you?

 

[sooda]

I asked you this already, but since you didn't answer...
Are you stating that 'homosexuality is not a death penalty offence' because it's actually sodomy that is (in some countries, per the OP)?
And if so, how many straight married men do you think will be punished on sodomy charges?

Sodomy is sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation.. It doesn't apply to heterosexuals.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sodomy is sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation.. It doesn't apply to heterosexuals.

Wow...
That is an amazingly naive statement.

Sodomy is used here to describe anal intercourse in a negative fashion...nothing to do with oral. Legally I'm not sure, but let's allow for it being both, since it doesn't change my point...why exactly do you think it is limited to homosexuals?

 

[sooda]

This still appears to be disingenuous, unless you're claiming Islamic countries are run based on Quranist principles. But you're not, are you?

To one degree or another, yes.. and there are 5 schools of Islamic juris prudence. Molesting children is a death penalty offense.. as demonstrated by the hangings in Iran. Gays are pretty much invisible as they were in the US in the 1950s.

In countries where public displays of sexuality or even affection even between heterosexual couples are taboo, its not really a problem. Most cities have an underground gay community.

 

[sooda]

Sodomy is sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation.. It doesn't apply to heterosexuals.

Sodomy legal definition of sodomy - TheFreeDictionary.com
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sodomy
Sodomy. Anal or oral intercourse between human beings, or any sexual relations between a human being and an animal, the act of which may be punishable as a criminal offense.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

To one degree or another, yes.. and there are 5 schools of Islamic juris prudence. Molesting children is a death penalty offense.. as demonstrated by the hangings in Iran. Gays are pretty much invisible as they were in the US in the 1950s.

And I think that's a problem, as I would have in the US in the 1950s.
But in any case...stoning homosexuals doesn't appear to me to be a Quranist view. And Brunei doesn't appear to be organising their laws based on Quranist principles. So talking only about what the Quran prescribes seems to make little sense.

In countries where public displays of sexuality or even affection even between heterosexual couples are taboo, its not really a problem. Most cities have an underground gay community.

You don't see the problem?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sodomy legal definition of sodomy - TheFreeDictionary.com
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sodomy
Sodomy. Anal or oral intercourse between human beings, or any sexual relations between a human being and an animal, the act of which may be punishable as a criminal offense.

Where is this supposed limitation meaning it doesn't apply to heterosexuals?

 

[sooda]

Where is this supposed limitation meaning it doesn't apply to heterosexuals?

Have married couples been prosecuted?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Have married couples been prosecuted?

That was my point.
You keep saying the law is not against homosexuality, but sodomy.
However, unless we're burying our heads in the sand, we know it's homosexuals this is aimed at.
Further, the existence of sodomy in the heterosexual community...particularly if using a definition including oral sex...is conveniently ignores.

 

[Revoltingest]

That was my point.
You keep saying the law is not against homosexuality, but sodomy.
However, unless we're burying our heads in the sand, we know it's homosexuals this is aimed at.
Further, the existence of sodomy in the heterosexual community...particularly if using a definition including oral sex...is conveniently ignores.

I'd expect that hetero couples practicing sodomy wouldn't be caught.
Homos couples doing the same because the couples would be noticed
just by innocently socializing together. So it could very well be that
they'd kill hetero sodomists too....if the opportunity arose.

Parenthetical aside:
I remember a quote from the movie, Midnight Express, about Turks....
".... homosexuality, it's a big crime here, but most of them do it every chance they get."

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'd expect that hetero couples practicing sodomy wouldn't be caught.
Homos couples doing the same because the couples would be noticed
just by innocently socializing together. So it could very well be that
they'd kill hetero sodomists too....if the opportunity arose.

Sure.
But they aren't the point of the law.
There is an inherent bias (I agree with your post) that homosexuals are probably sodomizing, and heterosexuals are not.
In my experience, a loose interpretation of what 'sodomy' means (as per @sooda) makes that an extremely self serving and unrealistic assumption, even were I to think anal sex was worthy of censor and punishment.

The whole thing is handled in a very inconsistent manner suggestive of simple bias against homosexuals, backed by increasingly extreme punishment.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hold on there.. Homosexuality is not a death penalty offense.. and neither is apostasy unless its coupled with a murder conviction.

These Muslims appear to disagree with you:

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure.
But they aren't the point of the law.
There is an inherent bias (I agree with your post) that homosexuals are probably sodomizing, and heterosexuals are not.

I'm saying that hetero couples don't get noticed.
But homo couples do get noticed, & this spawns
accusations & investigations.
How often do Muslim hetero couples engage in
sodomy? I don't know.

In my experience, a loose interpretation of what 'sodomy' means (as per @sooda) makes that an extremely self serving and unrealistic assumption, even were I to think anal sex was worthy of censor and punishment.

The whole thing is handled in a very inconsistent manner suggestive of simple bias against homosexuals, backed by increasingly extreme punishment.

This is religion.
Don't expect consistency from our perspective. They are consistent
with their individual views of what their gods want. But since this varies
with the individual, the aggregate effect will be inconsistent.

From our perspective (rather libertarian of you), consistency comes from
the simple of goal of leaving consenting adults alone when they harm no
one. We have no sundry gods with prescriptions & proscriptions to enforce
against others.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Did you say Muslims aren't supposed to read the Koran?

No...she didn't.
She said 'not just the Quran'.

Again, based on my experience, Quranist views of homosexuality don't support stoning people convicted of sodomy.

If you disagree, then fine. Otherwise it's clear that justification for this is not sourced from 'just the Quran'.

 

[sooda]

That was my point.
You keep saying the law is not against homosexuality, but sodomy.
However, unless we're burying our heads in the sand, we know it's homosexuals this is aimed at.
Further, the existence of sodomy in the heterosexual community...particularly if using a definition including oral sex...is conveniently ignores.

You are creating an argument for the sake of pontificating. Go for it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm saying that hetero couples don't get noticed.
But homo couples do get noticed, & this spawns
accusations & investigations.
How often do Muslim hetero couples engage in
sodomy? I don't know.

Based on a definition including oral sex? Plenty.

This is religion.
Don't expect consistency from our perspective.

That makes it sound like its mere cultural bias at play here. What I'm suggesting is that the law is inconsistently enforced. Whether sodomy should be punished is more a cultural position, albeit one I feel strongly about.

 

[sooda]

No...she didn't.
She said 'not just the Quran'.

Again, based on my experience, Quranist views of homosexuality don't support stoning people convicted of sodomy.

If you disagree, then fine. Otherwise it's clear that justification for this is not sourced from 'just the Quran'.

I can assure you that I have NOT read 6,000 hadiths.