Donald Trump is digging his own grave

[Shad]

One more time.

My claim: In pressuring Ukraine to fire a corrupt prosecutor (Shokin), Joe Biden acted with the support of the EU, IMF, and congressmen from both parties.

You still have to link any source that shows Biden did anything in support of any of those groups.

The source I cited: "But there is a long list of Western organizations, governments, and diplomats, as well as Ukrainian anti-corruption groups, that wanted to see Shokin fired. They include the International Monetary Fund, the European Union, the U.S. government, foreign investors, and Ukrainian advocates of reform."

Now show me the transcript in which Biden mentioned any of those groups in his talk with Ukraine.

 

[Callisto]

POTUS can withhold funding. Trump cited corruption reasons. Obama did it to Egypt during the Arab Spring and the MB when it started to go crazy when elected. Try again.

Yawn

Daniel Doherty - Obama Cuts Foreign Aid to Egypt

try again. It's why he lied, why there is an impeachment proceeding. It's already been explained here and throughout media. If you still can't grasp the distinction, that's your problem.

 

[Callisto]

There's only one person here in total denial. Most people are capable of processing the information that's come out.

To the question: no, it's not ok. The issue is not that quid pro quo doesn't happen in politics, it does. However, legal ones don't occur the way this one did. Firstly, the aid had already been approved. Any conditions for its release would have had to be specified beforehand, as part of the process leading to approval. Not after and not unilaterally. That is why not only did the first whistleblower speak up, but multiple staffers who handle such aid immediately knew what Trump did was illegal and said something. Trump's response was to fire them all - people who have decades of experience handling military aid and know what is legal. He removed the Ambassador to Ukraine, a diplomat who's served under Republican and Democrat presidents and considered an unsurpassed expert in diplomacy and that region. Yet, because she wasn't one of his henchmen, Trump has her fired, claiming she wasn't doing her job. Yet, he didn't appoint someone else as ambassador that supposedly could do a better job. Instead he sends lackeys and his personal attorney to wheel and deal under the table.

There is nothing legal, much less ethical, about this.

so basically, fact & reality still elude you. Got it.

your denial runs deep and knows no bounds.

 

[Jose Fly]

You still have to link any source that shows Biden did anything in support of any of those groups.

Now show me the transcript in which Biden mentioned any of those groups in his talk with Ukraine.

?????????? Are you serious?

The EU, IMF, and the US government wanted Ukraine to oust Shokin. In the midst of that, Biden, working for the US government, pressures Ukraine to oust Shokin. And your position is that's all just a coincidence and there's no link whatsoever between any of it?

Again, the fact that you have to make such obviously stupid arguments to support your position should set off alarm bells in your head that something's wrong with said position. But as with your "there's no link at all between 'We're ready to buy javelins' and 'I need a favor though'" argument, it would seem you've disabled that warning system, and thus we see you making one absurd argument after another.

Incredible.

 

[Shad]

try again. It's why he lied, why there is an impeachment proceeding.

Lied about what?

It's already been explained here and throughout media. If you still can't grasp the distinction, that's your problem.

Media does not make law nor interpret it. You can parrot all your want. It does not make you or what you parrot correct. Try again son. More so you admit Biden broke the law thus Trump's call to an investigation was correct thus no about politics. Yawn

 

[Shad]

?????????? Are you serious?

The EU, IMF, and the US government wanted Ukraine to oust Shokin. In the midst of that, Biden, working for the US government, pressures Ukraine to oust Shokin. And your position is that's all just a coincidence and there's no link whatsoever between any of it?

You have yet to provide any evidence that Biden did what he did in support of any of that. More so your own point works on Biden and his son. You didn't think your point through. Try again

Again, the fact that you have to make such obviously stupid arguments to support your position should set off alarm bells in your head that something's wrong with said position.

Just more assertions. You still can not provide a single piece of evidence to support your points.

But as with your "there's no link at all between 'We're ready to buy javelins' and 'I need a favor though'" argument, it would seem you've disabled that warning system, and thus we see you making one absurd argument after another.

Same point works on Biden and son. Try again

Incredible.

I know I am. I demolished your assertions so now you are whining. Try again.

 

[Callisto]

Lied about what?



Media does not make law nor interpret it. You can parrot all your want. It does not make you or what you parrot correct. Try again son. More so you admit Biden broke the law thus Trump's call to an investigation was correct thus no about politics. Yawn

You're going to have to do better than this. A) if you have to ask what he lied about them you need to start paying attention to current events. B) the sources confirming his corruption is a parade of cabinet members, and political & government officials who have provided testimony.

Come back when you catch up.

 

[metis]

You're going to have to do better than this. A) if you have to ask what he lied about them you need to start paying attention to current events. B) the sources confirming his corruption is a parade of cabinet members, and political & government officials who have provided testimony.

Come back when you catch up.

And notice that they cannot provide any evidence that Biden actually broke the law as there have not been any indictments, let alone even a trial.

Did they exercise bad judgement? Yep, and they both have admitted as such. But "bad judgment" itself is not necessarily a violation of law as you know.

But then what should we expect from those who get their "news" from Fox and other propaganda sources?

 

[Shad]

You're going to have to do better than this. A) if you have to ask what he lied about them you need to start paying attention to current events.

I wanted a specific.

B) the sources confirming his corruption is a parade of cabinet members, and political & government officials who have provided testimony.

That testimony is 3rd person and opinion

Come back when you catch up.

Come back with sources and arguments instead of just assertions

 

[Jose Fly]

You have yet to provide any evidence that Biden did what he did in support of any of that. More so your own point works on Biden and his son. You didn't think your point through. Try again

Just more assertions. You still can not provide a single piece of evidence to support your points.

Same point works on Biden and son. Try again

I know I am. I demolished your assertions so now you are whining. Try again.

If your only recourse is to argue that it's 100% coincidental that Joe Biden pressured Ukraine to fire a corrupt prosecutor, at the same time the EU, IMF, and US congressmen from both parties were all calling for the exact same thing, then I'll just let that speak for itself.

 

[Shad]

If your only recourse is to argue that it's 100% coincidental that Joe Biden pressured Ukraine to fire a corrupt prosecutor, at the same time the EU, IMF, and US congressmen from both parties were all calling for the exact same thing, then I'll just let that speak for itself.

Wrong. I said what I believe. However I can not prove it. You just can't admit you have no evidence nor know what evidence actually is. You have yet to still link any support of Biden's action rather than a shared goal. See the difference son?

 

[Jose Fly]

Wrong. I said what I believe. However I can not prove it. You just can't admit you have no evidence nor know what evidence actually is. You have yet to still link any support of Biden's action rather than a shared goal. See the difference son?

LOL....no evidence at all that Biden's pressuring Ukraine to oust their prosecutor was done parallel to an international effort to do the same.....no evidence at all that Biden's actions were done with the support of the US government, including congressmen from both parties?

Talk about bizarre.....

EU hails sacking of Ukraine’s prosecutor Viktor Shokin

"The European Union has welcomed the dismissal of Ukraine’s scandal-ridden prosecutor general and called for a crackdown on corruption, even as the country’s political crisis deepened over efforts to form a new ruling coalition and appoint a new prime minister.

Ukraine’s parliament voted overwhelmingly to fire Viktor Shokin, ridding the beleaguered prosecutor’s office of a figure who is accused of blocking major cases against allies and influential figures and stymying moves to root out graft...

...Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko is under huge pressure to appoint a new prosecutor general with a strong anti-corruption reputation, and to back investigations into the shadowy affairs of major businessmen and politicians.

The EU and United States are demanding as much, amid a political crisis that has paralysed reforms in Ukraine and jeopardised vital funding from international lenders."​

So there's evidence that the EU also wanted Shokin ousted and were pleased when the Ukrainian Parliament fired him. Now, why did Ukraine fire Shokin?

What really happened when Biden forced out Ukraine's top prosecutor

"In the wake of the 2014 ouster of pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych, European and U.S. officials stepped up their efforts to deal with corruption in Ukraine.​

"A big part of our diplomacy was pushing the Ukrainian government to clean up the corruption, partly because it was that corruption that allowed Russia to manipulate the country politically and economically," said Charlie Kupchan, who served as a special assistant to President Barack Obama and a senior director for European Affairs on the National Security Council.

Biden used U.S. aid as "a stick to move Ukraine forward," Kupchan said. "He was acting alongside our European allies. Everybody was of a single mind that this prosecutor was not the right guy for the job"...

...Biden has boasted about his role in getting Shokin fired. During a 2018 speech at the Council on Foreign Relations, he said he withheld $1 billion in loan guarantees for Ukraine in order to force the government to address the problem with its top prosecutor.

"I looked at them and said: 'I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a *****. He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time," he said.

Pifer, who also oversaw diplomacy with Russia and Ukraine under President George W. Bush, said it was appropriate for Biden to use U.S. aid as leverage. He said he used similar methods to pressure Ukraine...

...The international effort to remove Shokin, who became prosecutor general in February 2015, began months before Biden stepped into the spotlight, said Mike Carpenter, who served as a foreign policy adviser to Biden and a deputy assistant secretary of defense, with a focus on Ukraine, Russia, Eurasia, the Balkans, and conventional arms control...

...In late 2015, U.S. officials stepped up the pressure.

During a September 2015 speech at a financial forum in Odessa, U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt decried the inability of Shokin's office to root out corruption...

...In October 2015, then-Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland told the Senate Foreign Relations committee the Prosecutor General's Office must lock up "dirty personnel" in its own office.

In December 2015, Biden railed against the "cancer of corruption" in a speech before the country's parliament and called out Shokin's office.

Besides Biden's threat over the $1 billion in aid, the International Monetary Fund threatened to delay $40 billion in aid for similar reasons.

Shokin was eventually removed from his position in the spring of 2016.

The decision to remove Shokin "creates an opportunity to make a fresh start in the Prosecutor General's Office," said Jan Tombinski, the EU's ambassador to Ukraine, in a written statement."​

So there you have it. Lots, and lots, and lots of evidence that when Joe Biden withheld military aid to Ukraine to pressure them to remove Shokin, it was parallel to, and in concert with efforts by the EU and the IMF to achieve the same end.

If you're going to respond that none of the above constitutes evidence of what I described above, then I'm afraid further discussion with you simply isn't possible.

 

[sealchan]

Trump admits he asked Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden, and asks China to do the same. Like Nixon telling America "I ordered the break in.

Trump says Biden and people like Biden are probably why China has had trade advantages over the US. Also he slams politicians who have their sons profiting off their offices, so sad for Donald trump Jr.

Asked about the recall of the US ambassador to Ukraine, Trump says, "I don't know if I recalled her or somebody recalled her."

Does trump not know that this is illegal or is it that he just didn't care knowing the Republicans will back him?

What gets me is how Trump accuses others of what he does everyday... using the office to serve his own and his families personal investments.

The hypocrisy is so thick that sometimes it's hard to digest.

 

[sealchan]

I think it's only illegal if it can be proven that he used the information in an illegal manner... So far, we can only assume that's what he would have done.

That's where ethics come in...another of Trumps deep inadequacies. Even the appearance of a conflict of interest is wrong and it must be immediately corrected.

Conflict of interest - Wikipedia

Without such standards of ethics we would be helpless against a wide range of corrupt activity. People of good moral character recognize the need to maintain separation between power and personal interest. It is essential to a trustworthy commerce and political intercourse.