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does satan actually exist?
- Thread starter The Black Whirlwind
- Start date
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Please hold yourself to the same standard you want others to live by. We seldom attach caveats like "this is only my opinion". This is the FIRST time in this entire dialogue that you have admitted that these are merely YOUR opinions. In fact you have assured me thus:
Obviously you really don't believe that your opinions are JUST AS VALID as mine. Or at least you do a poor Job of expressing that. True belief has always made others uncomfortable.
Now back to Satan... I would contend that if you can't see his workings, then you just might be blind to the spiritual world. If you are blind to the spiritual side of things then you are truly missing out. The Bible stated unequivicbly that there will be MANY who claim to be Christians, but few who are. Why judge the book (or the religion) by the many then? Because it is convenient, which is yet another of the deciever's tools.
Draka, you ask "what is his percentage"... well if he can convince everyone that niether he or God exists, then it's close to %100! He wants you to feel NOTHING... no guilt, no need for God... NOTHING.
As for those who CLAIM that satan was used as a method for control, in the middle ages and during the first century, well I would like to see some proof. Those sound all high and pious, but I doubt their veracity.
BTW, as for the one "leading the charge"... I think I am the ONLY one in this thread who believes that this creature actually exists. That's OK, he has fooled me more than I like and he still gets me every now and then.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
"Obviously you really don't believe that your opinions are JUST AS VALID as mine. Or at least you do a poor Job of expressing that. True belief has always made others uncomfortable."
I believe in my perception of the spirit world to be very valid in my eyes and those who see as I do. I believe everything spiritual is very subjective. So I don't expect everyone to see the same way as I. Nor do I want to force my opinions on others. I am just simply giving you my perception. And in my perception, no evil being exists in the spirit world. Actually none are either good or evil. Those two ideas only exist within the minds of humans. It only exists within your perception of the world around you. And if you percieve a spirit doing something you don't like, you may percieve that spirit as being evil. But actually, it may only be trying to survive. Spirits are alive too ya know.
You can believe I'm blind or whatever, thats fine. Just be glad I'm there for the spirits that you don't even know exist. I am not going to debate this issue with you anymore. If you want to believe that you are right, and no one else is. Thats fine, just don't get sad when people don't agree with you.
I believe in my perception of the spirit world to be very valid in my eyes and those who see as I do. I believe everything spiritual is very subjective. So I don't expect everyone to see the same way as I. Nor do I want to force my opinions on others. I am just simply giving you my perception. And in my perception, no evil being exists in the spirit world. Actually none are either good or evil. Those two ideas only exist within the minds of humans. It only exists within your perception of the world around you. And if you percieve a spirit doing something you don't like, you may percieve that spirit as being evil. But actually, it may only be trying to survive. Spirits are alive too ya know.
You can believe I'm blind or whatever, thats fine. Just be glad I'm there for the spirits that you don't even know exist. I am not going to debate this issue with you anymore. If you want to believe that you are right, and no one else is. Thats fine, just don't get sad when people don't agree with you.
jewscout
Religious Zionist
I odn't believe that a Devil exists in the sense that the majority of christianity has pushed, this idea of a being competing w/ G-d for the souls of man...
In Kabbalah there is stuff written on The satan...
He is an angel who was given the dirty task of tempting man in an order to refine him, not destroy him...The satan is an angel...and if we take the teachings of the Rambam, angels have no free will and can only do as they are told by HaShem
In Kabbalah there is stuff written on The satan...
He is an angel who was given the dirty task of tempting man in an order to refine him, not destroy him...The satan is an angel...and if we take the teachings of the Rambam, angels have no free will and can only do as they are told by HaShem
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
I like that Jewscout. I never knew how judaism stood on the issue. Very interesting.
Doc
Space Chief
I personally don't believe in Satan as a physical demon flying around and corrupting people. People often confuse him with the tempting voice in their head which is really their counscious trying to outweigh itself. I have heard my parents talking about 'work of the devil' and that stuff like the internet or bad things on television. 'No' I say. "That is work of man." Anyway I don't believe when people say 'satan made me do it'. Its more of a scapegoat then anything else
Well I am joining the party late, but I believe that Satan is a fallen angel who lead 1/3(I believe) of the other angels in rebellion against God. I believe he is the greatest of all decievers, and agree that his greatest deception was getting people to believe he doesn't exist. I believe that he is currently acting to get as many people as he can to disbelieve.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Apologies Draka, that was Trust Me who asked that question!
Quoth The Raven
Half Arsed Muse
That's an interesting concept...if you've ever read 'Memnoch The Devil' by Anne Rice (and before anyone feels they need to point it out, as much as I would love to meet Lestat, yes, I know Anne Rice writes fiction) there is a very similar idea out forward in that.While Memnoch - as he calls himself - does have free will, his job as 'The Adversary' is to ensure that as many people as possible make it into Heaven. Except he's a little sick of being vilified and wants to quit.jewscout said:
The thing I always find odd about Job (haha...oddjob) is that if Lucifer has been cast out and is the enemy of God , what is he doing swanning about Heaven unmollested, making bets?
If I throw someone out of my house and they are truly my enemy, I'm not going to be making bets with them if they turn up in the lounge room...I'll be on the phone getting the AVO enforced.
Christopher Krajewski
Member
Science was developed so that morals would be exchanged better without superfluous terms like "devil". So the more essential paradox; why the more we wish to find morals at the common foundation (viz. science which meant "easier ways":tsk: ) the less those foundations get evident:banghead3
common foundation (viz. science which meant "easier ways":tsk: ) the less those foundations get evident:banghead3
jewscout
Religious Zionist
Good luck to you michel....the Kabbalah is a heavy read...they say you shouldn't read it until your much older because it will consume your life...michel said:I've just started on the Kabbalah, just scratched the surface though; I must admit what you quote from it sounds incredibly probable.
oracle
Active Member
Like I have stated in another post,
When it comes to war, tacticians understand that they must know their adversary. They have to know how their enemy thinks. When they know how the enemy thinks, they are able to determine the possibilities of attack and prepare themselves to counter it, like chess. Guerilla warfare has several advantages. It becomes difficult to identify the enemy when the enemy comes in friendly form. If a soldier is not able to identify his enemy, it becomes a disadvantage. Deception and surprise are key to winning a war, as many tacticians know. If you know who your enemy is, if you know how hes going to attack and when hes going to attack, and if you know where hes going to attack you have the advantage.
This information is acquired through military intelligence. In order to understand your enemy, you have to analyze the enemy. How do we battle against what we don't know or understand?
The spiritual world, to the ancients, was a non-tangible world. It was an unknown world of occurrences that could not be seen, and therefore could not be understood. Especially in ancient times, people did not have the science of modern times to explain mental dysfunctions such as epilepsy. An explanation, if one were to enter a state of convulsions, would be demon possession. However this explanation is highly superficial and superstitious, which does not even breach the surface of the underlying cause of the problem. Another example of this is when the Luke describes a woman who had a physical malfunction for eighteen years: "Luke 13:11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity". If the authors of these biblical texts could gave us a literal and modern interpretation of the texts, there would be no angels, demons, or spirits. However angels and demons represent numerous things, one modern interpretation of an angel or demon would simply be a temporal state of mind that occurs within an individual. Can we in fact see a "demonic" state of mind occur within characters of the bible? Yes, by analyzing the minds of those who had associations with Satan such as Judas and Peter. Such is the fact that when Jesus indirectly called Peter Satan, he was speaking figuratively to single out this state of mind that was occurring on a frequent basis in Peter.
There are many words and names associated with Satan, and in their differentiated terms, many of these words are refering to the same thing, just on another aspect or level of meaning. The Lucipherian myth for example, was not originally associated with Satan, but it was the Christian's who later associated Lucipher with Satan as a fallen angel. The original Judaic understanding of Satan or Beelzebub, was originally a Syrian personification of the destructive power of swarming insects. Beelzebub hence means "lord of the flies", and Satan came to mean "accuser". Satan was also associated as being the cause for a physical disfunction. Also he is associated with desire and temptations (emotions), as he is the tempter that deceives mankind into sin.
Satan is an abstract being, created because the ancients lacked a realistic understanding of the causes underlying these destructive forces. People are often self-decieved by coming to a simplified conclusion when observing the most obvious. People for centuries, came to the conclusion that the earth was flat. Not only that, but many had believed that the universe revolved around the earth. Now, in the assumption that there is a Satan, we can easily come to a conclusion that he exists by observing the most obvious. However we no longer live in a simplified and superstitous world influenced by unseen forces, but a highly complex world that requires scientifical explanations. One can easily assume that the emnity between mankind is "the work of Satan", but this is extremely oversimplified and superficial. When we identify the true underlying cause of emnity with an analytical or scientific process, Satan is easily eliminated from our conclusions. Rather Satan is a purely mythical or symbolic being that does not exist as an entity. A belief in Satan is the avoidance of any factual truth. This superstitious belief can be highly damaging on psychological levels. It can even be life threatening, as it has been in the past.
Is there a Satan that really tempts us? No, and in fact through modern nueroscience many understand that the amygdala is the seat of human agression, sexuality, fear, and instincts, which reacts accordingly to what is percieved in the environment, there are no spirits or demons involved. The amygdala and the hypothalamus respond by releasing hormonal chemicals in the body, and these hormones make up the emotional and physical stimulai that we feel.
I have concluded through my own psyhcological analysis of characters in the bible (this being my own beliefs and understanding), that Satan on a psychological level, is a selfish state of mind that is egoistic and animalistic in nature, mainly involving instinctive emotions that bypass rational and logic thought. "Satan" is most evident in those who have un-evolved levels of awareness with a narcissistic persona. It is a prejudice state of mind where an individual lacks developement in the awareness of others on empathic levels. In other words, the world revolves around the individual. However, this state of mind is also associated with fears, insecurities, hatred, painful memories, delusions, obsessions, and impulses, (the tools of Satan) which become the driving forces of selfish, destructive and animalistic behavior. I think each and every one of us have personal demons; fears, insecurities, hateful grudges, scarred memories, lusts, and we can allow ourselves to be utterly possessed by them. If we do, we become demonic, and we become destructive toward everything and everyone around us, depending on the intensity. In the end, all the destruction we cause is only self-destruction. Satan is simply the mindset which fuels these "demons", and that is selfishness, [egosim] which is a personal demon most of us yield to, and few have fully overcome.
Now take what I have just explained and analyze the relationships between Judas and Satan and the betrayal of Jesus. Not only that, analyze the mindset of Peter and you will understand why Jesus prayed for Peter not to succumb to Satan.
Personally I percieve the spiritual world in a purely psychological way, a world full of mind and thought.
When it comes to war, tacticians understand that they must know their adversary. They have to know how their enemy thinks. When they know how the enemy thinks, they are able to determine the possibilities of attack and prepare themselves to counter it, like chess. Guerilla warfare has several advantages. It becomes difficult to identify the enemy when the enemy comes in friendly form. If a soldier is not able to identify his enemy, it becomes a disadvantage. Deception and surprise are key to winning a war, as many tacticians know. If you know who your enemy is, if you know how hes going to attack and when hes going to attack, and if you know where hes going to attack you have the advantage.
This information is acquired through military intelligence. In order to understand your enemy, you have to analyze the enemy. How do we battle against what we don't know or understand?
The spiritual world, to the ancients, was a non-tangible world. It was an unknown world of occurrences that could not be seen, and therefore could not be understood. Especially in ancient times, people did not have the science of modern times to explain mental dysfunctions such as epilepsy. An explanation, if one were to enter a state of convulsions, would be demon possession. However this explanation is highly superficial and superstitious, which does not even breach the surface of the underlying cause of the problem. Another example of this is when the Luke describes a woman who had a physical malfunction for eighteen years: "Luke 13:11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity". If the authors of these biblical texts could gave us a literal and modern interpretation of the texts, there would be no angels, demons, or spirits. However angels and demons represent numerous things, one modern interpretation of an angel or demon would simply be a temporal state of mind that occurs within an individual. Can we in fact see a "demonic" state of mind occur within characters of the bible? Yes, by analyzing the minds of those who had associations with Satan such as Judas and Peter. Such is the fact that when Jesus indirectly called Peter Satan, he was speaking figuratively to single out this state of mind that was occurring on a frequent basis in Peter.
There are many words and names associated with Satan, and in their differentiated terms, many of these words are refering to the same thing, just on another aspect or level of meaning. The Lucipherian myth for example, was not originally associated with Satan, but it was the Christian's who later associated Lucipher with Satan as a fallen angel. The original Judaic understanding of Satan or Beelzebub, was originally a Syrian personification of the destructive power of swarming insects. Beelzebub hence means "lord of the flies", and Satan came to mean "accuser". Satan was also associated as being the cause for a physical disfunction. Also he is associated with desire and temptations (emotions), as he is the tempter that deceives mankind into sin.
Satan is an abstract being, created because the ancients lacked a realistic understanding of the causes underlying these destructive forces. People are often self-decieved by coming to a simplified conclusion when observing the most obvious. People for centuries, came to the conclusion that the earth was flat. Not only that, but many had believed that the universe revolved around the earth. Now, in the assumption that there is a Satan, we can easily come to a conclusion that he exists by observing the most obvious. However we no longer live in a simplified and superstitous world influenced by unseen forces, but a highly complex world that requires scientifical explanations. One can easily assume that the emnity between mankind is "the work of Satan", but this is extremely oversimplified and superficial. When we identify the true underlying cause of emnity with an analytical or scientific process, Satan is easily eliminated from our conclusions. Rather Satan is a purely mythical or symbolic being that does not exist as an entity. A belief in Satan is the avoidance of any factual truth. This superstitious belief can be highly damaging on psychological levels. It can even be life threatening, as it has been in the past.
No, it's the other way around: For those who believe in Satan, he has succeeded completely.Netdoc said:
Is there a Satan that really tempts us? No, and in fact through modern nueroscience many understand that the amygdala is the seat of human agression, sexuality, fear, and instincts, which reacts accordingly to what is percieved in the environment, there are no spirits or demons involved. The amygdala and the hypothalamus respond by releasing hormonal chemicals in the body, and these hormones make up the emotional and physical stimulai that we feel.
I have concluded through my own psyhcological analysis of characters in the bible (this being my own beliefs and understanding), that Satan on a psychological level, is a selfish state of mind that is egoistic and animalistic in nature, mainly involving instinctive emotions that bypass rational and logic thought. "Satan" is most evident in those who have un-evolved levels of awareness with a narcissistic persona. It is a prejudice state of mind where an individual lacks developement in the awareness of others on empathic levels. In other words, the world revolves around the individual. However, this state of mind is also associated with fears, insecurities, hatred, painful memories, delusions, obsessions, and impulses, (the tools of Satan) which become the driving forces of selfish, destructive and animalistic behavior. I think each and every one of us have personal demons; fears, insecurities, hateful grudges, scarred memories, lusts, and we can allow ourselves to be utterly possessed by them. If we do, we become demonic, and we become destructive toward everything and everyone around us, depending on the intensity. In the end, all the destruction we cause is only self-destruction. Satan is simply the mindset which fuels these "demons", and that is selfishness, [egosim] which is a personal demon most of us yield to, and few have fully overcome.
Now take what I have just explained and analyze the relationships between Judas and Satan and the betrayal of Jesus. Not only that, analyze the mindset of Peter and you will understand why Jesus prayed for Peter not to succumb to Satan.
Personally I percieve the spiritual world in a purely psychological way, a world full of mind and thought.
The ability to percieve good or evil is ultimately a brain function that weeds out things that are self-preserving to our survival, and things that are hostile to our survival. In other words, the brain only labels "evil" on those things that appear hostile to us, and this is all due to the Amygdala located in the central region of the brain. Our own ability to percieve one as being good or evil is actually egoism is disguise. As I have realized, egoism is deeply rooted in survival functions and survival mechanism. This includes the endocrine and central nervous system [with the Amygdala and Hypothalamus as the control centers], which exist purely for reasons of survival. Our emotions are instinctive and made to bypass the cognitive areas of the brain that uses logic and reason. Survival IS egoism, and survival extends farther beyond the immediate necessities, such as social and cultural survival.Master Vigil said:
The Black Whirlwind
Well-Known Member
NetDoc, the proof of keeping control over the masses with satan is evident in your own bible, which you cling to so desperatley. if you sin, you shall burn in satans fires for all eternity and be subjected to endless torture. that is how the early church leaders manipulated the masses. Excommunication by the corrupt church is how they got what they wanted. Three english monarchs, King John, Henry the VIII, and Elizabeth the I were all excommunicated because they pissed off the pope. excommunication was bad because most subjects of kings and queens followed the Roman Catholic church, and if you were excommunicated they would most likeley leave or rebel. that is how the early church maintained control of their subjects.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
md_88
you have completely misnderstood the scriptures. You have also messed up history. The EARLY church is 1st century... not the more contemporary Catholic church and all of their excesses.
I would like you to show this "control" in the first century, and would love for you to show this control in the scriptures. It sounds so "cool" to feel like you can debunk the scriptures, but you haven't come close. BTW, you won't find "excommunication" in the scriptures either. But please try.
you have completely misnderstood the scriptures. You have also messed up history. The EARLY church is 1st century... not the more contemporary Catholic church and all of their excesses.
I would like you to show this "control" in the first century, and would love for you to show this control in the scriptures. It sounds so "cool" to feel like you can debunk the scriptures, but you haven't come close. BTW, you won't find "excommunication" in the scriptures either. But please try.
The Black Whirlwind
Well-Known Member
i didnt say that there was excommunication in the scriptures, but that it was used as a form of control over the christian world leaders so the corrupt pope could get what he wanted.
Quoth The Raven
Half Arsed Muse
From what I remember of Henry VIII, he wasn't so concerned about the idea of excommunication...went off and made his own church so he could get a divorce and remarry, didn't he?md_88 said:
Does that makes him a free thinker, or an a$$hole?