does satan actually exist?

[Scuba Pete]

What does the Pope have to do with the Bible? That was your first premise,

the proof of keeping control over the masses with satan is evident in your own bible,

and I say you are all wet. Please show me this evidence.

 

[oracle]

I use to speculate that the early palpacy used "techniques" to control the masses. However, now I understand that it is more complex than this simple speculation. First, we are all born as manipulators, we manipulate others without being aware of it. You see how children as young as 2 can be manipulative towards their parents. Now people are easily self-manipulated by their own superstition and fear. In the case of Roman Catholicism, you have a syncretism between politics and religion, a dying empire and society that dissolved into a religious institution. The theology was built around systematic procedures like a government. It was imperialistic.

 

[Jaymes]

I just thought about something. If you replace the words 'Devil/Satan/Lucifer' with 'the government,' the argument for Satan gets kind of... well, amusing, if anything. To my flu-induced brain, anyway.

"The government is trying to win over as many souls as possilbe..."
"The government is brainwashing you all..."
Etc etc.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

Satan Was Born June 6th At 6 O'clock Hence The Number Of The Beast It 666 And Yes I'm A Satanist

 

[Master Vigil]

Satan Was Born June 6th At 6 O'clock Hence The Number Of The Beast It 666 And Yes I'm A Satanist

Satanist???? Awww.... I thought you were a Jedi. I'm all disappointed now.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

sorry, my friend posted that.

 

[Master Vigil]

Ohhhhh.... Whew . HAHAHA!!!!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Instead of so boldly disparaging the beliefs of others, how about withdrawing this comment and reflecting on it for yourself?

Which is GREAT advice for any of us ready and willing to take a poke at a religion we don't understand. Great post illudtempus. You can put your halo back on now.

 

[Runt]

Really, the question of whether or not Satan exists is about as easy to answer as the question of whether or not God exists. The answers to both questions cannot be derived scientifically; they can only be gained intuitively. Unfortunately, no two people's intuition will give them the same answer to this question. I'm pretty sure many Christians are POSITIVE that they have felt Satan trying to influence them, and that is proof enough for them. And I, on the other hand, and equally positive that I've never felt Satan's presense, which for me is a good enough reason not to believe that Satan literally exists.

 

[Scorn]

Really, the question of whether or not Satan exists is about as easy to answer as the question of whether or not God exists.

So then, Satan requires the existence of God. Therefore, this is not a question atheists or non-theists should ever be concerned with. Let alone argue about.

 

[DianeVera]

Satan was originally the ancient egyption god Set (or Seth) who was god of chaos and storms.
The rest i agree with, "do what i say or you'll go to hell" kinda thing.

Hmmm..... Can you trace any direct historical link between the ancient Egyptian god Set and the Second Temple era Jewish Satan concept? (The Christian Satan concept is derived from Zoroastrian-influenced Second Temple era Judaism, which differed both from older Hebrew concepts (e.g. "ha-satan" in the Book of Job) and from later Judaism.) Some theistic Satanists do like to equate Satan with Set, but, as far as I can tell, any historical grounds for doing so are a bit shaky, to say the least.

Anyhow, the Egyptian perception of Set varied quite a bit depending on which dynasty was in power. Sometimes Set was seen as a good guy, sometimes he was seen as a bad guy.

 

[DianeVera]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didnt exist.

Quite a few Christians like to say this. To me this suggests that Satan doesn't want hordes of human worshippers, unlike the Christian "God," who does seem to want lots and lots of fawning by lots and lots of humans.

 

[DianeVera]

Satan is fake. It's a bedtime story to scare thier children into behaving. Kinda like the legend of the boogeyman.

Do you believe in any gods at all? If so, what are your criteria for deciding which purported gods are real and which ones aren't?

 

[DianeVera]

Back on topic... I don't believe in satan because I do know the spiritual. I work with the spirit world everyday, all day. And I have even worked with what christians think are "demons" and from knowing the spiritual side very well, I can assure you they are no such thing.

Well, Christians traditionally classify ALL non-human spirits as either (1) angels of their "God" or (2) demons. To anyone of non-Abrahamic beliefs, this is obviously an oversimplification of the spirit world, to say the least.

From my extensive experience with the spiritual world, I have discovered that satan is just a myth.

How did you discover this? Did you ever try calling on Satan?

It seems to me that different people have had different kinds of spiritual experiences, and that different gods/spirits respond to different people.

 

[DianeVera]

I am sure I will tick someone off with this one, but oh well.

If you look at the mythologies of different religions you will find the same archetypes. Deified human heroes, cycles of birth and rebirth, and gaurdians of the Underworld, just to name a few. Satan in the Christian mythology can be equilovated with several beings of other religious mythologies and pantheons. Take for example the Greek pantheon, Which truly mirrors the Christian one only older. Hades was Zeus' right-hand man and entrusted with many things Zeus would trust no other with. Hades rose up against Zeus and wanted his power as his own and Zeus banished him from Mount Olympus to Rule over the Underworld. Does this at all sound familiar?

This is the first time I've seen that particular myth about Zeus and Hades. Do you happen to know of a source offhand?

 

[DianeVera]

That's an interesting concept...if you've ever read 'Memnoch The Devil' by Anne Rice (and before anyone feels they need to point it out, as much as I would love to meet Lestat, yes, I know Anne Rice writes fiction) there is a very similar idea out forward in that.While Memnoch - as he calls himself - does have free will, his job as 'The Adversary' is to ensure that as many people as possible make it into Heaven. Except he's a little sick of being vilified and wants to quit.
The thing I always find odd about Job (haha...oddjob) is that if Lucifer has been cast out and is the enemy of God , what is he doing swanning about Heaven unmollested, making bets?
If I throw someone out of my house and they are truly my enemy, I'm not going to be making bets with them if they turn up in the lounge room...I'll be on the phone getting the AVO enforced.

Indeed. The Satan of Christianity is quite different from "ha-satan" of the Book of Job. Christian ideas about Satan have their origin in Zoroastrain-influenced forms of Judaism that existed in the Second Temple era, which differed quite a bit both from older Hebrew ideas (e.g. in the Book of Job) and from subsequent Judaism.

The Satan of Christianity has some very interesting historical antecedents. For example, in a few places in the New Testament, there are quotes from or other allusions to the Book of Enoch, in which Azazel (the Devil) is portrayed as a Promethean figure. He and other fallen angels are said to have taught humans various technologies, including the working of metal.

 

[Master Vigil]

Well, Christians traditionally classify ALL non-human spirits as either (1) angels of their "God" or (2) demons. To anyone of non-Abrahamic beliefs, this is obviously an oversimplification of the spirit world, to say the least.

Indeed, but the point I was getting at is that no spirits are "good or evil." Those concepts don't exist within the spirit world, only in human minds.

How did you discover this? Did you ever try calling on Satan?

It seems to me that different people have had different kinds of spiritual experiences, and that different gods/spirits respond to different people.

Well, lets see. I believe we are using a different definition of Satan. I discovered that the evil little devil that christians believe in doesn't exist, like I said above, "good and evil" don't exist to spirits. Perhaps if I know your definition of satan, I can tell you if I have ever met one.

 

[Master Vigil]

Also, I'd like to add that I do not "call" on spirits. They don't like when people do that, its disrespectful. Instead it is the opposite. They call on me. I'm usually the guy the call on when humans mess up the flow of nature, and thus mess up the spirit world. I have to "fix it" so to speak. I've had my share of "evil" spirits. But they aren't evil at all. Most of the time, they were trapped, and scared out of their wits.

 

[DianeVera]

Also, I'd like to add that I do not "call" on spirits. They don't like when people do that, its disrespectful. Instead it is the opposite. They call on me. I'm usually the guy the call on when humans mess up the flow of nature, and thus mess up the spirit world. I have to "fix it" so to speak. I've had my share of "evil" spirits. But they aren't evil at all. Most of the time, they were trapped, and scared out of their wits.

Do you feel that calling on spirits is ALWAYS disrespectful no matter how you do it? I would agree that ye olde grimoire-style evocations are disrespectful.


http://www.theistic-satanism.org/CoAz/belief/theology.html

 

[DianeVera]

Indeed, but the point I was getting at is that no spirits are "good or evil." Those concepts don't exist within the spirit world, only in human minds.

I'm inclined to agree.

Well, lets see. I believe we are using a different definition of Satan. I discovered that the evil little devil that christians believe in doesn't exist, like I said above, "good and evil" don't exist to spirits. Perhaps if I know your definition of satan, I can tell you if I have ever met one.

See the following articles of mine:

* Satan and "Evil" in Christianity (and Satanism)
* Theology of the Church of Azazel

See also the bottom of the previous page of this thread for my reply to your other post.