Does Paul Agree With LDS?

[Clear]

POST ONE OF TWO

nPeace said : "Perhaps I am getting confused." (post #14)
Yes, you are. Let me try to demonstrate the problem.
Your first quote from Paul (1 Cor 15:46) has to do with what sort of bodies we have in the resurrection.
The Second quote from the Book of Mormon has to do with mankind being created in the image of God.
Neither of these scriptures have to do with the ancient Judeo-Christian doctrine of pre-existence of spirits. (which is the actual subject you want to address, if I am not mistaken....)


REGARDING THE RESURRECTION AND 1 COR 15:46
nPeace said : Paul said, "what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual." - 1 Corinthians 15:46 (post #14)

Paul, in vs 35 raises the question : “But some will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” He speaks of different sorts of flesh and bodies and in verse 42 he explains “So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable." He continues with such comparisons and in verse 45 he says “Thus it is written ‘The first man Adam became a living soul; the last Adam became a life-creating spirit.”

THEN, you quote verse 46 : “But it is not the spiritual which is first, but the natural [physical], and then the spiritual.”

Paul is still talking about bodies in the resurrection. Not about the pre-existence of spirits. Your next quote, similarly, does not talk about the pre-existence of the spirits of mankind, but it references the body/form of the spirit of Jesus before HE was born/incarnated.


REGARDING JESUS EXISTING BEFORE HIS BIRTH AND MAN CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD
nPeace said : “LDS says, "Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit." - Book of Mormon Ether 3” (post #14)

Jesus is explaining HIS appearance is according to his spirit and that body of Adam [mankind] is created after his image. While HE is in existence before his birth (i.e. his incarnation), this verse does not reference the spirits of mankind and their pre-creation existence.

Your then conclude : “There evidently is a contradiction here.” (nPeace, post #14)
Do you see the problem and source of the confusion?

You then ask "Do LDS disagree with the apostle Paul, on this?" (nPeace, post #14)

Of course not. The LDS agree with early Christianity that resurrected bodies are different [“spiritual”]. The LDS also agree that mankind are formed in the image [εικον] of God.


NOW,

REGARDING THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEF IN THE “PRE-EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS”

The reason that I commented on the Restoration movement, which is a Religious movement which seeks a return to the earliest version of Christianity with it’s base doctrines is that, as part of that movement, the LDS seek to be a version of THAT Christianity.

Thus, they agree with the early Judeo-Christian descriptions of the spirits of mankind existing before they are born.


THE POSSIBLE TIMING OF THE ORIGIN OF SPIRITS

In religions that believe that there is a spirit inside the body of mankind, as I see it, there are only three possibilities regarding the timing of an origination (I’ll use the word “creation”) of the spirit inside the body of mankind.

Spirits may be created AFTER BIRTH.
Spirits may be created AT BIRTH.
Spirits may be created BEFORE BIRTH.

I don’t see any other possibility inside religions that believe mankind has a spirit inside of it’s body.

Augustine and other theologians never really came to any firm conclusions other than rendering various opinions, however early Judeo-Christian literature is very clear in it’s descriptions of early belief that Adam and the rest of mankind had a spirit placed within them and that those spirits existed prior to being born rather than being created and placed into an infant at birth or after it was already born.


THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEF THAT SPIRITS EXISTED BEFORE THEY WERE BORN


MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS

Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :

Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)

The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)

In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.”

After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3)

The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham : “Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in order (slav” restoration”), others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)

The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).

When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

“Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

 

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POST TWO OF TWO

In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits : “And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them.... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked : Quote: “After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. IN this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :

“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)

In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)


This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)

The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”

Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that Quote: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”

The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)

Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says : “the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they [the souls] are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day.... (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)

The point in referring a wide variety of a multitude of early Judeo-Christian literature is to show that the doctrine existed at an early stage (1 enoch is pre-300 b.c.), over a long period of time and over a large geographical space. Thus, it was both popular and orthodox of the religious worldviews. This model underlie New Testament theology where, for example, the disciples asked Jesus “ “rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” in John 9:2. The man could not have sinned before birth if he did not exist in a cognizant form that could make moral choice before birth.

The assumption that one could sin before birth was also assumed in the assumption that nobility could exist before birth. ''As a child I was born to excellence, and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body. (Wis of Solomon 8:20-21)'

The simple answer is that yes, the LDS agree with this early Judeo-Christian model where the spirit of Adam (and the rest of mankind) existed before it was placed into his body (and before our spirit was placed into our bodies as well).

In any case nPeace, I hope your spiritual journey is good and you have good luck coming up with your own models about when the spirit originates, after, during, or before birth.


Clear
ειφυακω

 

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REGARDING THE GREEK WORD RENDERED "DESTROY" IN MATT 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]". (Matthew 10:28)

Thirza Fallen wonders : “I wonder what the original work for 'destroy' is translated as. Perhaps meaning "punish?"


Hi @Thirza Fallen


Your comment also made me wonder regarding the rendering of απολεσαι which is the Greek which was rendered “destroy” in this specific quote. While “destroy” has a connotation of “annihilation” in English, ancient greek απολεσαι has a different connotation.

It refers to a “loss” of sorts. Loss of money, loss of life, loss of reward, etc. This is the base meaning of the word.

For examples,

in P Petr 111 51:5 it is used to describe “the money which they thought had been lost” (gk το αργυριον ο ωιοντο απολωλεναι...)

In P Oxy IV 743:23 is describes one who is “upset at helenos loss of the money” (gk εγω ολος διαπον[ο]υμαι ει Ελενος χαλκους απολε[σ]εν.

In PRyl II 141:21 (27 a.d.) it refers to the loss of 40 drachmae (which I had with me from the sale of opium) (gk απωλεσα ας ειχον απο τιμ(ης) οπιου…. If the person was using the opium, then one can expect they used this word for “loss” more than once…..

In P Tebt II 278:36 (early I a.d.) it speaks of the loss of a garment.


The point is that LOSS is the underlying meaning.


When we apply this to death, it is used to describe, not “destruction of life”, but “Loss” of life. For example, in In Fay III:3 (95-6 a.d.) it is used to describe the loss of two pigs on a trip, and was even used anecdotally when describing two quarrymen who felt “worked to death” when working with really hard stone.

The point is, that the base meaning of “loss” is retained whether it is the loss of money, or the loss of ones’ life, or the loss of a future reward (in heaven), etc. Thus, if it refers to a "Punishment" per se, it does so in the context of loss of reward or loss of satisfaction or loss of relationship, etc. instead of the application of external pain or actual annihilation.


Well, good luck in coming to your own models as to what God is doing with us in this life Thirza fallen.


Clear
εισιειω

 

[Katzpur]

Why does it seem like everyone is dancing around this question?

Is it a yes or a no? Do humans pre-exist their birth in spirit form or not?

No dancing. The answer is an unequivocal "YES"."

 

[nPeace]

Its (to me) presenting an assumption about what they think Paul is saying and challenging all LDS comers to argue against that assumption. There's also a slight of hand in representing the LDS verse to mean something which it might not in LDS circles. That is a sort of debate tactic I guess. Maybe they just want to hear you talk?

Whoah. Slight of hand?
How about if I say this is a twist of elbow, and character attack?
You know better than I do, what RF rules are, so I don't have to remind you that it is not recommended to attack the poster by accusing them of bad intentions, or deception (or maybe that's not what you meant by slight of hand), rather than address their post,

I posted am open question, which anyone is free to take part in... or not.
If a poster posed a question, whether directly to JWs or not, as one of JWs, I would respond to the question, if my fellow brothers, or sisters, have not already done so. it would not matter if it were posted in a DIR, or not.
Answering questions related to God, the Bible, our faith, etc. are important to us JWs.
If Katzpur does not want to participate, "because it's not in the DIR", that's fine.
Perhaps it's not important to her, and that's fine too.
Maybe it interests others... Maybe.

I would have thought that if someone felt that Paul was saying something different to what a poster indicated, that person would be happy to at least say what they believe Paul was saying, and why. Guess not.

 

[nPeace]

Why does it seem like everyone is dancing around this question?

Is it a yes or a no? Do humans pre-exist their birth in spirit form or not?

Ya Know.

 

[nPeace]

Not avout the LDS church, nor any other of the civerse contradictory churches. Everybody has their own conflicting interpretations of scripture and form their own church that agrees with them.

I suggest you speak for yourself and your associates. I accept that. Thanks for admitting your own serious failure.
If I had told you that, I am sure you would have objected.

Jesus and his apostles did not have their own interpretation of scripture, and form their own church, to suit them, and neither does his followers today, making up his congregation, or body, of which he is the head.

Now I am dancing, that you finally admitted who the real fraud is...what I've been saying to you all along. Woohoo!

Now that you have "Come out", will you be throwing your Bible in the garbage, and not hiding behind it?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Whoah. Slight of hand?
How about if I say this is a twist of elbow, and character attack?
You know better than I do, what RF rules are, so I don't have to remind you that it is not recommended to attack the poster by accusing them of bad intentions, or deception (or maybe that's not what you meant by slight of hand), rather than address their post,

No, I don't mean deception. I see debate tactics used frequently, and as long as its not rude there's no rule against making it harder to reply. Making an opponent establish their context is classic.

We do allow deception, by the way and don't determine who is right. You could say you believe in flying toasters, and that would allowed. We don't allow people to accuse each other of being liars/dishonest -- usually. You'd be surprised how often conversations devolve into such accusations. Very rarely have staff reviewed a post which called someone out on lying without taking some action, because there is no word-full easy defense against an accusation of lying. If someone says you're lying then there is just no path forward for discussion with them. Its like rowing a boat without water, so the conversation ends. That's bad for the forum.

On the other hand framing an argument in a way that is difficult to defend against is quite common and allowed. It is called a loaded question. I don't equate it with lying. It is a tactic just like fallacies or changing goal posts etc. People are allowed to say "Hey you seem to be changing the goal posts" and things like that. They're not allowed to question your integrity or ascribe malicious intentions to you. They are allowed to point out your tactic, and then you can say "Oh, no. That's not what I am doing." Whereas if they just say "You're a liar!" then it ends the conversation, because its disrespects you. That is not what I mean to do. I respect your integrity. I've been a very strong believer, and I know its real. I know you're not fake, but even if I thought you were you should report me if I were to accuse you of being fake. That concern would be considered by the admins not by me. We have about 3 or 4 admins, names in red. They have final decision on issue like this.

I posted am open question, which anyone is free to take part in... or not.
If a poster posed a question, whether directly to JWs or not, as one of JWs, I would respond to the question, if my fellow brothers, or sisters, have not already done so. it would not matter if it were posted in a DIR, or not.
Answering questions related to God, the Bible, our faith, etc. are important to us JWs.
If Katzpur does not want to participate, "because it's not in the DIR", that's fine.
Perhaps it's not important to her, and that's fine too.
Maybe it interests others... Maybe.

You're not in trouble, and I'm not trying to warn you or punish you. I also didn't know you were JW. I'm not LDS by the way. I'm more of a scattered sheep...somewhere out there beneath the pale moonlight.

I would have thought that if someone felt that Paul was saying something different to what a poster indicated, that person would be happy to at least say what they believe Paul was saying, and why. Guess not.

I didn't mean to be rude, sorry.

 

[nPeace]

Its the context, and its because many people such as yourself rely upon a system of interpretation. In a religious debate you can pick a context. Then the same systematic method gets a different result. Suppose for example that we impose that Jesus wants all people to refer to him as Yeshuah and that its super-important that we do so. Suddenly we have to be extra careful about names. That changes one thing, which changes another, and then another and so on. Or suppose that we assume (and insist) that John is the apostle which Jesus loved and that its very important to believe this, so if you don't believe it then you're out. Well...that means we have just eliminated Judas possibly and perhaps some other people, so we've already got an interpretation about Judas which affects other interpretations. There is a knock on effect, and sometimes it affects the bigger assumptions; because its a system. Its a system of interpretation.

Would you like to share how you interpret Paul's words, quoted in the OP?

 

[nPeace]

No, I don't mean deception. I see debate tactics used frequently, and as long as its not rude there's no rule against making it harder to reply. Making an opponent establish their context is classic.

We do allow deception, by the way and don't determine who is right. You could say you believe in flying toasters, and that would allowed. We don't allow people to accuse each other of being liars/dishonest -- usually. You'd be surprised how often conversations devolve into such accusations. Very rarely have staff reviewed a post which called someone out on lying without taking some action, because there is no word-full easy defense against an accusation of lying. If someone says you're lying then there is just no path forward for discussion with them. Its like rowing a boat without water, so the conversation ends. That's bad for the forum.

On the other hand framing an argument in a way that is difficult to defend against is quite common and allowed. It is called a loaded question. I don't equate it with lying. It is a tactic just like fallacies or changing goal posts etc. People are allowed to say "Hey you seem to be changing the goal posts" and things like that. They're not allowed to question your integrity or ascribe malicious intentions to you. They are allowed to point out your tactic, and then you can say "Oh, no. That's not what I am doing." Whereas if they just say "You're a liar!" then it ends the conversation, because its disrespects you. That is not what I mean to do. I respect your integrity. I've been a very strong believer, and I know its real. I know you're not fake, but even if I thought you were you should report me if I were to accuse you of being fake. That concern would be considered by the admins not by me. We have about 3 or 4 admins, names in red. They have final decision on issue like this.

You're not in trouble, and I'm not trying to warn you or punish you. I also didn't know you were JW. I'm not LDS by the way. I'm more of a scattered sheep...somewhere out there beneath the pale moonlight.

I didn't mean to be rude, sorry.

I should have used a smiley.
The tone of my post, was not to be taken as a scolding. I just wanted to encourage you to address the post, rather than engage in conversation about what you felt I was doing.
It was just an encouraging nudge, because you seem to have something valuable to share...and I would kike to hear it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Would you like to share how you interpret Paul's words, quoted in the OP?

That is very gracious. Who knows maybe you'll get some inspiration from my comment like water from a rock. Check with your doctor before trying it though. Fun fact: In an emergency it is sometimes possible to use coconuts as blood serum. Just think of my post as a coconut or perhaps as a rock that Moses can speak to and make water come out.

1 Corinthians 15:46 quoted "...The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual." This is actually referring I think to much, much older opinion possibly either Karaite or Rabbinical. There is a book available called The Lonely Man of Faith which I have, surprisingly. It doesn't encourage people to be loners like me (as the title seems to indicate) but is about the two Adams described in Genesis. Its something people have been discussing for eons. Was Paul influenced by these conversations? Probably, but I don't know. He's writing a letter to people who already have known him and heard him speak in person, so he's not laying down the background or the context for his words. We have to interpolate them ourselves.

Paul's take on this appears to be layered. He takes this idea of two Adams and shifts it to Adam vs Jesus, and so Jesus is the moral Adam whereas classic Adam is the farmer. Figuring out Paul's take is almost as difficult as picking cotton. He's got a business going on in this conversation.

The question all depends on what we think Paul means by resurrection. You and the LDS are never to going to agree this century. I believe he is talking about repentance when he refers to resurrection, and I believe both you and the JW's and the LDS are a little too per-occuppied with an afterlife for Paul's taste (or mine at least). I think Paul is about transforming the world, not about living forever as individuals. I think he believes we cease to be individuals and therefore are alive in Christ. This is something you and the LDS are probably not going to see eye to eye with me on. I know that he talks about resurrection and the story of Jesus is a story of physical resurrection, but there's a lot he says that we have never heard. There's a lot Jesus is quoted to say leading me towards this conclusion, but I write too much already.

Now...it must seem like I think too highly of my own opinion. I do, and it has caused me much suffering and many problems, but I have paid for my arrogance. I am fast becoming quite humble, but I am as stubborn as any rock or coconut. You will need the powers of Moses to get any water from it.

 

[nPeace]

I am not sure how the verse leads to that conclusion.


Could be...I will have to look into that.



Will check those out. Thanks.

Can I offer to help?
i Corinthians 15
The theme, of focus - the topic : The resurrection.
Agreed so far?

Verse 35
How will the dead be raised up, some might ask. A question.
The answer :
(1 Corinthians 15:36-42)
36 You unreasonable person! (Not you, you. ) What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. . . .

Does that help?
1) What you sow, is not made alive, unless first it dies.
2) God gives it a body just as it has pleased him.
3) There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies.

Consider reading the remainder of the texts, with these points in mind.

Central to the theme - The Resurrection, is the hope of heavenly life. So resurrection to where? Heaven.
Resurrection for whom? The saints - earthly, or physical beings - with earthly bodies.

What you sow, is not made alive, unless first it dies.
The saints must die a physical death, before they can be made alive, in a spirit body - the one God promised to give them, like their king who died in the flesh, and was raised in the spirit.

Spoiler: scriptures

(2 Corinthians 5:1-4) . . .For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, 3 so that when we do put it on, we will not be found naked. 4 In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
(1 Corinthians 15:48-50) 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.
50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
(Philippians 3:20, 21) 20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.
(1 Peter 1:3, 4) 3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you,
(1 Peter 3:18) For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

It's not difficult at all. This is elementary stuff. a child can understand it.
That's not meant to be an insult. Just expressing how basic this is.

Be back later.

 

[Deeje]

Its the context, and its because many people such as yourself rely upon a system of interpretation. In a religious debate you can pick a context. Then the same systematic method gets a different result. Suppose for example that we impose that Jesus wants all people to refer to him as Yeshuah and that its super-important that we do so. Suddenly we have to be extra careful about names. That changes one thing, which changes another, and then another and so on. Or suppose that we assume (and insist) that John is the apostle which Jesus loved and that its very important to believe this, so if you don't believe it then you're out. Well...that means we have just eliminated Judas possibly and perhaps some other people, so we've already got an interpretation about Judas which affects other interpretations. There is a knock on effect, and sometimes it affects the bigger assumptions; because its a system. Its a system of interpretation.

Its too important to rely just on your own interpretation......this is life or death! There is only one truth and the rest is false.
The scriptures have to support what you believe or else its just another incorrect interpretation that will take one down the 'broad and spacious road to death'. (Matthew 7:13-14) We have to be found "doing the will of the Father" or there will be a stinging rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23)

It is God who draws people to the truth about his son's teachings, which originated with him, not Jesus. (John 6:44; John 6:65) That way he is sure to draw only those whose hearts are searching for the true God, not just a god who agrees with what they want to believe.

That is the Bible's message to my understanding....

 

[Deeje]

No dancing. The answer is an unequivocal "YES"."

In your opinion I guess that maybe so....but in my opinion, the Bible does not support such a notion......so please back up your statement with some evidence for those who do not believe the BoM is any expression of God at all. It is only applicable to Mormons.....and is only believed by Mormons.

Just because Jesus had a pre-human spiritual existence is not proof that everyone else did also.
If you believe that, then it demonstrates that you have no concept of the "ransom" provided by Jesus in his death. (Matthew 20:28)

If you claim that the Bible is true, then it shouldn't be difficult to provide some answers directly from the scripture that is recognized the world over as "the word of God".

"An unequivocal yes"...can't be an opinion....we've all got those and they account for nothing.
Please provide the evidence from God's word....

 

[Brickjectivity]

Its too important to rely just on your own interpretation......this is life or death!

I don't consider my interpretations authoritative. Hence they can be atoned for when they are incorrect, so it is not a matter of life or death for me. If its a matter of interpretation I'm aware of multiple systems that all have faults. I can pick any one of those, and then I won't just be relying on my own interpretation but still will have problems.

There is only one truth and the rest is false.
The scriptures have to support what you believe or else its just another incorrect interpretation that will take one down the 'broad and spacious road to death'. (Matthew 7:13-14) We have to be found "doing the will of the Father" or there will be a stinging rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23)

The NT scriptures tell us multiple times that we must learn from the older scriptures, but the older scriptures are kept by the circumcision. That is, the only 'Authoritative' people are Jews. Paul says they are the keepers of the oracles of God, and they're still here, today. Maybe they are a little cryptic, and maybe I have to jiggle what they say a bit. It doesn't change though. I start by backtracking and trying to understand their point of view of deity and how this affects the NT, and its as good as any other system I've encountered, flexible, humble, merciful. Cryptic though they may be its very grounded, stable system and recognizes its own imperfection. It doesn't have the claim of orthodoxy which plagues modern churches. It leaves space for change, for God to intervene.

It is God who draws people to the truth about his son's teachings, which originated with him, not Jesus. (John 6:44; John 6:65) That way he is sure to draw only those whose hearts are searching for the true God, not just a god who agrees with what they want to believe.

That is the Bible's message to my understanding....

I'm aware in the NT it says God draws people unto repentance through mercy. It seems to me anyone who thinks they have the truth is making a claim to perfection which probably is considered boasting by the NT author James. A Christian must confess to being imperfect, but James says anyone never at fault in speech is a perfect person. Therefore a Christian ought to confess to imperfect truth, not to have the truth. It is simply the position that we are in. What is more important: Love and faithfulness or knowledge? Christians lack in knowledge. It isn't our powerhouse. We're not librarians.

 

[Watchmen]

I'm not sure why it belongs in a debate forum at all. It seems to me that a direct question about what Latter-day Saints believe shouldn't really be up for debate at all. I mean, who's in a better position to be able to accurately explain what Latter-day Saints believe -- Latter-day Saints or every Tom, Dick and Harry who thinks they know?

If I genuinely wanted to know what the Jehovah's Witnesses belief was on any given topic, I'd go to the JW's DIR and ask my question. I wouldn't invite a debate on the subject from everybody else. But that's just me being my usual fussy self about what belongs in a debate forum and what belongs in a DIR.

That explanation is old and tired. People can certainly be experts in a subject without being within the subject themselves.

 

[Deeje]

What part of us sleeps when waiting?

Every part of us. There is no consciousness in death as Solomon said....
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, 10....
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . .

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (KJV)

Here he writes that the dead are in an unconscious state, not able to do anything, see anything, plan anything, or know anything.....even their "love" has "perished".

The "soul" that was that person has now returned to the dust as God told Adam right at the beginning. (Genesis 3:19) Souls are mortal.....they die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The only prospect of continued life for the dead who sleep, is exactly what Jesus did for Lazarus. Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? (John 11:11-14) He said he was "sleeping".

Where does Jesus say that the dead will be called from when he returns them to life? (John 5:28-29) He calls them from their graves.

Let the scriptures tell the story.

In what form was he as a pre human?

The pre-human Jesus was a spirit like all the creatures who exist in the spirit world. But the Bible does not say, nor does it even suggest that spirit beings in heaven are waiting to be born as humans on earth.....before our conception, we simply did not exist. We are the product of our parent's gene pool.

A "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature. The "breath of life" is what God gave Adam to animate his lifeless body.....and this same breath is what is passed onto all human babies at birth. In utero, they depend on their mother's body to supply oxygen and nourishment, but once they are born, they are on their own as a separate entity. They must take in food and oxygen for themselves. They are now a "soul" in the original meaning of the word.

Jesus is not eternal?

NO. Only one is "eternal" and that is Jehovah himself. Jesus is a creation....God's very first. (Revelation 3:14)
He is an "only begotten son" which means that he had a begetter....someone who gave him life. He was "only begotten" long before he came to be born as a human on this earth to fulfill a rescue mission for the human race....to provide a ransom.

Colossians 1:15 plainly says of Jesus...
"15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:. . . .


17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

So just as the Bible says....the spirit realm is occupied by spirit creatures...none of whom have been humans on earth or ever will be. They were created long before the material universe came into existence.

I wonder what the original work for 'destroy' is translated as. Perhaps meaning "punish?"

No actually, if you look at John 3:16 (a very well known scripture) you will see two contrasts presented by Jesus...
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The opposite of "everlasting life" is to "perish"...so what does 'perish' mean if you use it in connection with, say, a house fire and someone "perished"? It means that they were burned to death and possibly were beyond recognition. They were killed....they ceased to exist.

The Greek word in Matthew 10:28 is "apollymi" which means....
"to destroy

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   
   
2. render useless
   
   
3. to kill" (Strongs)
   

Spiritually, forever imprisoned?

NO. It means utter annihilation. The lake of fire is a symbolic receptacle for things that God does not want in existence anymore. Death and hades are hurled into this lake of fire. (Revelation 20:13) Its not a literal place but any human that is thrown into "gehenna" doesn't come out. Its called the "second death" because unlike the first death, there is no prospect of a resurrection.

Yes, I agree.

No fiery hell....(Jeremiah 7:31)

 

[nPeace]

What part of us sleeps when waiting?

Good question.
The scriptures answer.
(Psalm 36:9) With [God] is the source of life; By your light we can see light.

(Job 12:10) In his hand is the life of every living thing And the spirit of every human.(Job 33:4) God’s own spirit made me, And the Almighty’s own breath brought me to life.
(Job 34:14, 15) 14 If he fixes his attention on them, If he gathers their spirit and breath to himself, 15 All humans would perish together, And mankind would return to the dust.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

(Psalm 104:29, 30) 29 If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, And back to their dust they go. 30 If you send forth your spirit, they are created; And you make the face of the ground new.
(Isaiah 42:5) This is what the true God, Jehovah, says, The Creator of the heavens and the Grand One who stretched them out, The One who spread out the earth and its produce, The One who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk on it:

The simple answer from the Bible, is : God - the source of life - holds your life in his hands (not literal hands. Of course.), and will give or restore life to you, if he sees fit to do so.
So what sleeps? Your life, with all its character, and memories, rests safely, and securely, in the big gentle hands of your almighty loving heavenly father.
This gives us a better understanding of Luke 20:37, 38
37 But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

In what form was he as a pre human?

What Deeje meant by pre-human, is before his [Jesus] human life.
What the Bible says...
(John 6:38) . . .for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
(John 8:23) . . .He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.
See Philippians 2:5-11
Before being born as a human on earth, Jesus lived in heaven with his father, as a mighty spirit person - with a spirit body.

Jesus is not eternal?

The Bible's answer...
1 Corinthians 15:42-57; Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14
Now, yes. Jesus can never die, since he was given immortality.
However, Jesus has not always existed. Like the angels, he was created as a son of God. John 3:16.

I wonder what the original work for 'destroy' is translated as. Perhaps meaning "punish?"

You could always research it. That would be helpful.

Spiritually, forever imprisoned?

No. Complete and utterly destroyed forever. Obliterated. Gone with no hope of return. Revelation 20:13-15

Yes, I agree.

That's great!

 

[nPeace]

Every part of us. There is no consciousness in death as Solomon said....
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, 10....
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . .

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (KJV)

Here he writes that the dead are in an unconscious state, not able to do anything, see anything, plan anything, or know anything.....even their "love" has "perished".

The "soul" that was that person has now returned to the dust as God told Adam right at the beginning. (Genesis 3:19) Souls are mortal.....they die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The only prospect of continued life for the dead who sleep, is exactly what Jesus did for Lazarus. Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? (John 11:11-14) He said he was "sleeping".

Where does Jesus say that the dead will be called from when he returns them to life? (John 5:28-29) He calls them from their graves.

Let the scriptures tell the story.



The pre-human Jesus was a spirit like all the creatures who exist in the spirit world. But the Bible does not say, nor does it even suggest that spirit beings in heaven are waiting to be born as humans on earth.....before our conception, we simply did not exist. We are the product of our parent's gene pool.

A "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature. The "breath of life" is what God gave Adam to animate his lifeless body.....and this same breath is what is passed onto all human babies at birth. In utero, they depend on their mother's body to supply oxygen and nourishment, but once they are born, they are on their own as a separate entity. They must take in food and oxygen for themselves. They are now a "soul" in the original meaning of the word.



NO. Only one is "eternal" and that is Jehovah himself. Jesus is a creation....God's very first. (Revelation 3:14)
He is an "only begotten son" which means that he had a begetter....someone who gave him life. He was "only begotten" long before he came to be born as a human on this earth to fulfill a rescue mission for the human race....to provide a ransom.

Colossians 1:15 plainly says of Jesus...
"15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:. . . .


17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

So just as the Bible says....the spirit realm is occupied by spirit creatures...none of whom have been humans on earth or ever will be. They were created long before the material universe came into existence.



No actually, if you look at John 3:16 (a very well known scripture) you will see two contrasts presented by Jesus...
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The opposite of "everlasting life" is to "perish"...so what does 'perish' mean if you use it in connection with, say, a house fire and someone "perished"? It means that they were burned to death and possibly were beyond recognition. They were killed....they ceased to exist.

The Greek word in Matthew 10:28 is "apollymi" which means....
"to destroy

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   
   
2. render useless
   
   
3. to kill" (Strongs)

NO. It means utter annihilation. The lake of fire is a symbolic receptacle for things that God does not want in existence anymore. Death and hades are hurled into this lake of fire. (Revelation 20:13) Its not a literal place but any human that is thrown into "gehenna" doesn't come out. Its called the "second death" because unlike the first death, there is no prospect of a resurrection.



No fiery hell....(Jeremiah 7:31)

Hey sis. I should have known you would get back to this post.
Yes God alone is eternal in both directions - past and present. Jesus is eternal, in only one direction - present. Isaiah 9:6, 7
I should have waited on Samuel, instead of jumping the gun.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It sounds like the context is differentiating between Adam and Jesus, not whether we existed as spirits before we got bodies. Aren't spirits eternal? If they are eternal, they have always existed and will always exist. They don't just materialize at conception or birth, depending on which you believe. If they have a beginning, then they will have an end, but I don't think they do. They always were, like God.

Then why are they called "sons of God"?

Being a son, means you had a father, a sire, i.e., a life-giver.