Does Paul Agree With LDS?

[nPeace]

Paul said, "what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual." - 1 Corinthians 15:46
LDS says, "Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit." - Book of Mormon Ether 3
There evidently is a contradiction here.
Do LDS disagree with the apostle Paul, on this?

 

[Brickjectivity]

When you start a debate like this its a good idea to start it in Same Faith Debates and specify which faiths are invited. That will make things a lot more fun and interesting. Its not a requirement though. Putting in Religious Debates is Ok, but I'm just making a suggestion.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Paul said, "what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual." - 1 Corinthians 15:46
LDS says, "a pre-mortal Christ explains individuals were created in the beginning in the image of Christ." - Book of Mormon
There evidently is a contradiction here.
Do LDS disagree with the apostle Paul, on this?

It sounds like the context is differentiating between Adam and Jesus, not whether we existed as spirits before we got bodies. Aren't spirits eternal? If they are eternal, they have always existed and will always exist. They don't just materialize at conception or birth, depending on which you believe. If they have a beginning, then they will have an end, but I don't think they do. They always were, like God.

 

[Clear]

Paul said, "what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual." - 1 Corinthians 15:46
LDS says, "a pre-mortal Christ explains individuals were created in the beginning in the image of Christ." - Book of Mormon
There evidently is a contradiction here.
Do LDS disagree with the apostle Paul, on this?

Hi @nPeace

Will you provide the quote from the Book of Mormon that you are quoting?

Thanks

Clear
φιω

 

[nPeace]

It sounds like the context is differentiating between Adam and Jesus, not whether we existed as spirits before we got bodies.

Absolutely. Paul certainly is not discussing whether we existed as spirits before we got bodies.
He expressly confirmed that there are only two kinds of bodies - spirit, and flesh, and shows that the one with a physical body exists in this state first - before they die, and are given a spirit body.

If we accept that Paul spoke the truth, then we understand that a person does not have a spirit body and a physical body, both existing together - one housing the other, but rather, as Paul says, "
What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual".
The physical dies, and is raised up with a spirit body.
Is that what you are reading?

Aren't spirits eternal? If they are eternal, they have always existed and will always exist. They don't just materialize at conception or birth, depending on which you believe. If they have a beginning, then they will have an end, but I don't think they do. They always were, like God.

Is there any scripture that says spirits are eternal, and always existed? Hebrews 1:7
I think you may be thinking that a spirit body, and the spirit God put in man, to keep him alive, are the same.
The scriptures say God is a spirit, yet he sends forth spirit. Are you thinking the two are the same?

Paul used an illustration to explain his point. (1 Corinthians 15:35-41) See Ecclesiastes 3:19 and Psalm 104:29, 30

 

[Deeje]

It sounds like the context is differentiating between Adam and Jesus, not whether we existed as spirits before we got bodies. Aren't spirits eternal? If they are eternal, they have always existed and will always exist. They don't just materialize at conception or birth, depending on which you believe. If they have a beginning, then they will have an end, but I don't think they do. They always were, like God.

I think the world has been hoodwinked into believing that "spirits" are something other than what the Bible says they are. The only "spirits" spoken about in scripture are angels....both faithful ones and wicked ones who followed satan into rebellion. There is no such thing as a "ghost" (i.e. the disembodied spirit of a dead person). When you die the "soul" that is you, ceases to exist. (Ezekiel 18:4) Your remains go back to the dust and you "sleep" waiting for a resurrection. This is what the ancient Jews were taught.....nothing changed except what humans did to alter the meaning of scripture."Soul", "spirit", "heaven" and "hell" took on very skewed connotations.

In Colossians 1:15-17 it says of Jesus.....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

According to Paul, the pre-human Jesus was God's "firstborn"...his very first creation.

Revelation 3:14 describes Jesus as "the beginning of God's creation".....making him a creation, not an eternal being. He is a spirit, so that means spirits are finite beings......they have a beginning, just like we do, but both angels and humans were created to enjoy everlasting life. Yet since both are "mortal" they can die under certain circumstances.

God's punishment for wicked humans is revealed in Jesus' words....
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]". (Matthew 10:28)

Likewise his punishment for the disobedient angels is the same.....the "lake of fire", (Matthew 25:41) which is called "the second death" (Revelation 20:14)....a symbolic place of no return.

God has no purpose in a place like Christendom's "hell"...it is against everything the Bible teaches and contrary to the very nature of the Creator. "Hell" is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "sheol"....which simply means the grave.

There is so much confusion out there.....but God will guide right hearted ones to his truth. (John 6:65)

 

[nPeace]

Hi @nPeace

Will you provide the quote from the Book of Mormon that you are quoting?

Thanks

Clear
φιω

Thanks.
I'll edit the OP to be more accurate.

Ether 3
Chapter 3
14 Behold, I am he who was aprepared from the foundation of the world to bredeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the cFather and the Son. In me shall all mankind have dlife, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my esons and my daughters.

15 And never have I ashowed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man bbelieved in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own cimage? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this abody, which ye now bbehold, is the cbody of my dspirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

 

[shunyadragon]

Paul said, "what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual." - 1 Corinthians 15:46
LDS says, "Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit." - Book of Mormon Ether 3
There evidently is a contradiction here.
Do LDS disagree with the apostle Paul, on this?

Unfortunately Paul cannot speak for himself.

 

[Clear]

Thanks.
I'll edit the OP to be more accurate.

Ether 3
Chapter 3
14 Behold, I am he who was aprepared from the foundation of the world to bredeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the cFather and the Son. In me shall all mankind have dlife, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my esons and my daughters.

15 And never have I ashowed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man bbelieved in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own cimage? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this abody, which ye now bbehold, is the cbody of my dspirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Good.

Your quote from Ether 3 relates to Jesus Christ and his clarification that Ether and all of mankind were created in the image of God. What sort of theological problem or contradiction do you think this creates versus the theology of early Judeo-Christianity?

Clear
φυσεω

 

[nPeace]

Unfortunately Paul cannot speak for himself.

You do cause me to wonder about you... oftentimes.

He did. Just like Martin Luther, and John Kennedy, and George Washington, and...

If you are going to argue that because an individual died, they have not spoken for themselves, then I think you should either stop doing science, or let people know that you don't believe dinosaurs or any ancient creature lived, because all the bones in the world... they unfortunately can't speak for themselves... according to you

 

[nPeace]

Good. It was only too obvious that your quote from the Book of Mormon was a non-existent "quote".

Your quote from Ether 3 relates to Jesus Christ and his clarification that Ether and all of mankind were created in the image of God. What sort of theological problem or contradiction do you think this creates versus the theology of early Judeo-Christianity?

Clear
φυσεω

Actually, I only searched for a quote, to put in the OP, but I had heard this doctrine that man exited as spirits before becoming mortals, was taught by Mormons.
I don't recall if I heard it from Mormons themselves, or read it. It was a good few years.

So you are saying LDS do not teach Pre-existence, preexistence, beforelife, or premortal existence is the belief that each individual human soul existed before mortal conception, and at some point before birth enters or is placed into the body. Concepts of pre-existence can encompass either the belief that the soul came into existence at some time prior to conception or the belief that the soul is eternal.

 

[Clear]

Actually, I only searched for a quote, to put in the OP, but I had heard this doctrine that man exited as spirits before becoming mortals, was taught by Mormons.
I don't recall if I heard it from Mormons themselves, or read it. It was a good few years.

So you are saying LDS do not teach Pre-existence, preexistence, beforelife, or premortal existence is the belief that each individual human soul existed before mortal conception, and at some point before birth enters or is placed into the body. Concepts of pre-existence can encompass either the belief that the soul came into existence at some time prior to conception or the belief that the soul is eternal.

Hi @nPeace

1) YOUR QUOTE FROM CORINTHIANS CONCERNS THE RESURRECTION. ARE YOU TRYING TO ASK ABOUT A DIFFERENT DOCTRINE (PRE-EXISTING SPIRITS?)
You are confused. Your conclusion is incorrect. I am saying that your quote related to JESUS and HIS existence prior to his birth and does NOT illuminate the nature of the spirit in mankind. , but, apparently you are actually trying to refer to the early Judeo-Christian doctrine of the spirits of MANKIND and THEIR existence prior to birth. Is this correct? If so, you need to find a relevant quote IF you are going to use the Book of Mormon as a source.

2) THE RESTORATIONIST MOVEMENT SEEKS TO RETURN TO THE EARLY VERSION OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES REGARDING PRE-EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS
All restorationists, whether they are religionists such as the LDS or religious historians who are restorationists, are part of a movement that seeks to restore, repair and return to the earlier version of Christian doctrine. Are you referring to the the Early Judeo-Christian doctrine of the existence of spirit before their birth. Is that what you are actually referring to?

3) WHAT IS THE "EVIDENT CONTRADICTION" YOU ARE REFERRING TO IN THE ORIGINAL O.P. BEFORE YOU CHANGED THE WORDING?
You quoted a specific verse from Pauls' sermon to the Corinthians concerning the resurrection.
You quoted verse 46 and said there was an "evident contradiction" concerning this verse on the resurrection. What "evident contradiction" are you referring to in the O.P. or was this a mistake?

Clear
σιφυω

 

[Katzpur]

When you start a debate like this its a good idea to start it in Same Faith Debates and specify which faiths are invited. That will make things a lot more fun and interesting. Its not a requirement though. Putting in Religious Debates is Ok, but I'm just making a suggestion.

I'm not sure why it belongs in a debate forum at all. It seems to me that a direct question about what Latter-day Saints believe shouldn't really be up for debate at all. I mean, who's in a better position to be able to accurately explain what Latter-day Saints believe -- Latter-day Saints or every Tom, Dick and Harry who thinks they know?

If I genuinely wanted to know what the Jehovah's Witnesses belief was on any given topic, I'd go to the JW's DIR and ask my question. I wouldn't invite a debate on the subject from everybody else. But that's just me being my usual fussy self about what belongs in a debate forum and what belongs in a DIR.

 

[nPeace]

Hi @nPeace

1) YOUR QUOTE FROM CORINTHIANS CONCERNS THE RESURRECTION. ARE YOU TRYING TO ASK ABOUT A DIFFERENT DOCTRINE (PRE-EXISTING SPIRITS?)
You are confused. Your conclusion is incorrect. I am saying that your quote related to JESUS and HIS existence prior to his birth and does NOT illuminate the nature of the spirit in mankind. , but, apparently you are actually trying to refer to the early Judeo-Christian doctrine of the spirits of MANKIND and THEIR existence prior to birth. Is this correct? If so, you need to find a relevant quote IF you are going to use the Book of Mormon as a source.

2) THE RESTORATIONIST MOVEMENT SEEKS TO RETURN TO THE EARLY VERSION OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES REGARDING PRE-EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS
All restorationists, whether they are religionists such as the LDS or religious historians who are restorationists, are part of a movement that seeks to restore, repair and return to the earlier version of Christian doctrine. Are you referring to the the Early Judeo-Christian doctrine of the existence of spirit before their birth. Is that what you are actually referring to?

3) WHAT IS THE "EVIDENT CONTRADICTION" YOU ARE REFERRING TO IN THE ORIGINAL O.P. BEFORE YOU CHANGED THE WORDING?
You quoted a specific verse from Pauls' sermon to the Corinthians concerning the resurrection.
You quoted verse 46 and said there was an "evident contradiction" concerning this verse on the resurrection. What "evident contradiction" are you referring to in the O.P. or was this a mistake?

Clear
σιφυω

Perhaps I am getting confused.
So let me start from the beginning.
Paul said, "what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual." - 1 Corinthians 15:46
LDS says, "Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit." - Book of Mormon Ether 3
There evidently is a contradiction here.
Do LDS disagree with the apostle Paul, on this?

If I used a wrong quotation, I apologize. I used the quotes from the Wikipedia article, which says, "Pre-existence, preexistence, beforelife, or premortal existence is the belief that each individual human soul existed before mortal conception, and at some point before birth enters or is placed into the body.

The concept of premortal existence is an early and fundamental doctrine of Mormonism. In the faith’s eponymous text, the Book of Mormon, published on March 26, 1830, a pre-mortal Christ explains individuals were created in the beginning in the image of Christ."

From the book of Esther, Chapter 3, 16 Behold, this a body, which ye now b behold, is the c body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit...

It' seems to clearly say that humans were created in spirit form... at least, to me.

Are you saying that this is not saying what the Wiki article says - that individuals were created in the beginning in the image of Christ - in spirit form/body?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm not sure why it belongs in a debate forum at all. It seems to me that a direct question about what Latter-day Saints believe shouldn't really be up for debate at all. I mean, who's in a better position to be able to accurately explain what Latter-day Saints believe -- Latter-day Saints or every Tom, Dick and Harry who thinks they know?

If I genuinely wanted to know what the Jehovah's Witnesses belief was on any given topic, I'd go to the JW's DIR and ask my question. I wouldn't invite a debate on the subject from everybody else. But that's just me being my usual fussy self about what belongs in a debate forum and what belongs in a DIR.

Its (to me) presenting an assumption about what they think Paul is saying and challenging all LDS comers to argue against that assumption. There's also a slight of hand in representing the LDS verse to mean something which it might not in LDS circles. That is a sort of debate tactic I guess. Maybe they just want to hear you talk?

 

[Deeje]

Why does it seem like everyone is dancing around this question?

Is it a yes or a no? Do humans pre-exist their birth in spirit form or not?

 

[shunyadragon]

You do cause me to wonder about you... oftentimes.

He did. Just like Martin Luther, and John Kennedy, and George Washington, and...

If you are going to argue that because an individual died, they have not spoken for themselves, then I think you should either stop doing science, or let people know that you don't believe dinosaurs or any ancient creature loved, because all the bones in the world... they unfortunately can't speak for themselves... according to you

Not avout the LDS church, nor any other of the civerse contradictory churches. Everybody has their own conflicting interpretations of scripture and form their own church that agrees with them.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Why does it seem like everyone is dancing around this question?

Is it a yes or a no? Do humans pre-exist their birth in spirit form or not?

Its the context, and its because many people such as yourself rely upon a system of interpretation. In a religious debate you can pick a context. Then the same systematic method gets a different result. Suppose for example that we impose that Jesus wants all people to refer to him as Yeshuah and that its super-important that we do so. Suddenly we have to be extra careful about names. That changes one thing, which changes another, and then another and so on. Or suppose that we assume (and insist) that John is the apostle which Jesus loved and that its very important to believe this, so if you don't believe it then you're out. Well...that means we have just eliminated Judas possibly and perhaps some other people, so we've already got an interpretation about Judas which affects other interpretations. There is a knock on effect, and sometimes it affects the bigger assumptions; because its a system. Its a system of interpretation.

 

[Sand Dancer]

He expressly confirmed that there are only two kinds of bodies - spirit, and flesh, and shows that the one with a physical body exists in this state first - before they die, and are given a spirit body.

I am not sure how the verse leads to that conclusion.

I think you may be thinking that a spirit body, and the spirit God put in man, to keep him alive, are the same.

Could be...I will have to look into that.

Paul used an illustration to explain his point. (1 Corinthians 15:35-41) See Ecclesiastes 3:19 and Psalm 104:29, 30

Will check those out. Thanks.

 

[Sand Dancer]

When you die the "soul" that is you, ceases to exist. (Ezekiel 18:4) Your remains go back to the dust and you "sleep" waiting for a resurrection. This is what the ancient Jews were taught.....nothing changed except what humans did to alter the meaning of scripture."Soul", "spirit", "heaven" and "hell" took on very skewed connotations.

What part of us sleeps when waiting?

In Colossians 1:15-17 it says of Jesus.....According to Paul, the pre-human Jesus was God's "firstborn"...his very first creation.

In what form was he as a pre human?

Revelation 3:14 describes Jesus as "the beginning of God's creation".....making him a creation, not an eternal being. He is a spirit, so that means spirits are finite beings......they have a beginning, just like we do, but both angels and humans were created to enjoy everlasting life. Yet since both are "mortal" they can die under certain circumstances.

Jesus is not eternal?

God's punishment for wicked humans is revealed in Jesus' words....
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]". (Matthew 10:28)

I wonder what the original work for 'destroy' is translated as. Perhaps meaning "punish?"

Likewise his punishment for the disobedient angels is the same.....the "lake of fire", (Matthew 25:41) which is called "the second death" (Revelation 20:14)....a symbolic place of no return.

Spiritually, forever imprisoned?

God has no purpose in a place like Christendom's "hell"...it is against everything the Bible teaches and contrary to the very nature of the Creator. "Hell" is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "sheol"....which simply means the grave.

Yes, I agree.