POST ONE OF FOUR
Hi @Deeje, I apologize for not responding earlier. I am, episodically, very busy at work and this week has been difficult and busy.
Deeje said : “This thought particularly caught my attention......this concept of the "place" where "spirits" of the dead go between this life and the next....where does this originate? Certainly not in scripture.” (post #164)
While the Judeo-Christian scripture references hades as the place where the spirits of the dead exist while they await the resurrection and judgement, much of the sacred texts such as biblical literature presumably originated with revelations to mankind from God that, at some point moved from oral histories and traditions into literary history and literature such as biblical literature.
EXISTENCE AS A THREE ACT PLAY. HADES AS AN INTERMISSION BEFORE JUDGMENT
I like @Katzpurs model of phases of the existence of spirits (post #146) where she described a three act play, 1) pre-birth existence, 2) mortal life, and 3) post Death judgment and resurrection with hades serving as an “intermission” of sorts where spirits await resurrection.
Act 1: The pre-mortal existence
Act 2: Mortality
Intermission: Awaiting the Resurrection in the Spirit World
Act 3: Our resurrection, judgment and reconciliation with God
I also like the specific point that [B]@sojourner[/B], (citing an author) made. “… a culture that does not affirm life after death does not speculate about it” I think this is correct to a certain extent. Since the creators of your modern religious movement did not retain the ancient concept of a spirit when your religion was created, your religion will neither recognize nor use the ancient scriptures in the same way the ancients did when they referred to spirits.
THE EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS IN BIBLICAL LITERATURE.
The concept of the existence of spirits existing inside mankind is indeed, referred to in scripture and in a great deal of Early Judeo-Christian literature. (I gave more than 30 examples in post 127-128). Keep in mind that your religious movement is a different religion that early Christianity and your texts and your interpretations are different than that of the earliest Christians.
For examples :
In Luke 23:46 Jesus says, upon the death of his body, “into thy hands I commend my spirit” - Jesus cannot commend his spirit if he does not have a spirit. Thus, Jesus had a spirit.
Gal. 5:17 says “flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh” - The flesh cannot “lust against” a spirit that doesn’t exist.
In Ps. 16:10 (or Acts 2:27, 31) the psalmist rejoices that God “thou wilt not leave my spirit in hell” – A spirit must exist if it is to be “left” anywhere.
James 4:5 "spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy" – A spirit dwells in us that is capable of lust.
Job 14:22 his spirit within him shall mourn – The spirit within man can mourn.
Ps. 22:29 none can keep alive his own spirit – A living spirit must exist in the first place if one is unable to keep it alive.
Matt. 10:28 fear him which is able to destroy both spirit and body – A spirit must exist if it can be destroyed.
Hebrews 12:9 "...be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" -- one cannot Be the Father of spirits unless spirit exist.
James 1:21 engrafted word, which is able to save your spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be saved.
1 Pet. 1:22 ye have purified your spirit in obeying – A spirit must exist if it can be purified.
Ezek. 11:19 (36:26–27; 37:14) I will put a new spirit within you – A spirit must exist if it is to be put into us.
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me – A spirit must exist if it either has or lacks something. .
Acts 7:59 Stephen ... saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be received.
Acts 23:8 Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit – The concept of a spirit existed, else the concept could not have been denied by the Sadducees.
Rom. 8:16 spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be witnessed to.
1 Cor. 6:20 glorify God in your body, and in your spirit – A spirit must exist if it can “glorify God”.
Such biblical texts reference this belief that mankind has a dual nature, spirit and body. While you’ve notice frequently that the words “spirit” and “soul” are conflated both by readers and by texts to mean the same thing, technically, they are not. [B]@Katzpur[/B] described the early Christian concept that when a spirit is united with a body, it then becomes a living “soul”. Still, much of Christianity, including writers and translators, often use the terms “soul” and “spirit” as synonyms.
We have evidence that this confusion existed anciently as well. For example, the Gospel of Phillip explains the early basic Christian belief that “The soul of Adam came into being by means of a breath, which is a synonym for spirit.” (the actual text says "synonym for spirit")
Regarding the early Judeo-Christian belief that Adam was a “dual” being (i.e. consisting of spirit and body).
In Genesis 2:7 the dual nature of man correlates to the dual sentences describing the process of creating a living adam.
a) The creation of a lifeless body
The first sentence Ch 2 vs 7 describes the creation of Adams body : “And God shaped man, taking dust from the earth.” This is a body, but it is lifeless, unintelligent, unemotional, unthinking, without independent will of it’s own.
Early Judeo-Christian literature assumes this model in its narratives.
For example, In discourse on abbaton, God leaves Adams lifeless body without putting a spirit in it for some time as it was known that Adam would fall and mankind would commit many great sins upon the earth and oppress and harm himself and others.
The narrative has Jesus saying to His Father, "Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him." And My Father said unto Me, "If I put breath into him, My beloved son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to primal state." And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command."
Thus God puts breath, which Phillip tells us was a synonym for a spirit, into the lifeless body.
b) The addition of the spirit to the body
The second sentence is “And he ‘breathed’ into his face, the breath of life and man became a living soul”. In early Christian worldviews, this references the placing of a spirit into Adam to create a living soul (i.e. a spirit in a living body)
The word “breathed” here is ενεφυσησεν (LXX)., the base word is φυσιοω (physio) and though it can mean to “puff up”, in φυσις (Physis) it means “nature” (it’s where we get the word “physical’ in English). Adam became part of the natural, living world by means of this second part of this dual process when he had something put into his lifeless body.
In early Christian worldviews, the thing put into Adam was not merely “breath” or “air” or “wind”, rather the thing put into adam gave his body “intelligence”, “emotions”, “will” and other characteristics of intelligent life. In early Christianity, A spirit was placed into Adams lifeless body. Mere wind, or air, or breath does not instill these qualities of intelligence and emotion and will, etc.
Thus the Christian teaching was that “Adam came into being from two virgins, from the Spirit and from the virgin earth. “ (gos Phillip)
This simple concept permeates early Judeo-Christian literature. In Apo Adam, God stood in Adam’s presence and repeats this same early tradition, saying : ‘Adam, why were you sighing in your hearts? Do you not know that I am God who created you, and that I breathed into you a spirit of life for a living soul?’ The Apocalypse of Adam 2:1-6-7, ch 3:1;
As another example, in early Christianity the patriarch Napthali taugh that “…the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2
The point is that the earliest literature describes and assumes there was an intelligent spirit which was “clothed” by a body.
This process of “clothing” a spirit with a body is reflected in the symbolic duality of much of early literature. For example, when biblical Daniel 7:15 uses the phrase “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”, the same sort of duality is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, “and my breath [spirit] within its sheath.”
JUST AS THE PROCESS OF LIFE INVOLVES PLACING A SPIRIT INTO A BODY. THE PROCESS OF DEATH INVOLVES REMOVAL OF A SPIRIT FROM ITS BODY.
In early Judeo-Christian literature, just as Adams spirit entered into his body and Adam became alive (a living soul). Conversely, when a spirit is leaving the body, the body weakens and dies. For example, Abraham says to the angel during his ascension “...I can no longer see, because I am weakened and my spirit is departing from me.” The Apocalypse of Abraham 16:1-4;.
This symbolism of a spirit being “clothed” with a body (i.e. “earthly clothing”) carried over to the symbolism surrounding resurrection in that resurrection was also described as a process of placing a spirit into “clothes of glory”, Judeo-Christian Enochian literature describes this process.
POST TWO OF FOUR FOLLOWS
Hi @Deeje, I apologize for not responding earlier. I am, episodically, very busy at work and this week has been difficult and busy.
Deeje said : “This thought particularly caught my attention......this concept of the "place" where "spirits" of the dead go between this life and the next....where does this originate? Certainly not in scripture.” (post #164)
While the Judeo-Christian scripture references hades as the place where the spirits of the dead exist while they await the resurrection and judgement, much of the sacred texts such as biblical literature presumably originated with revelations to mankind from God that, at some point moved from oral histories and traditions into literary history and literature such as biblical literature.
EXISTENCE AS A THREE ACT PLAY. HADES AS AN INTERMISSION BEFORE JUDGMENT
I like @Katzpurs model of phases of the existence of spirits (post #146) where she described a three act play, 1) pre-birth existence, 2) mortal life, and 3) post Death judgment and resurrection with hades serving as an “intermission” of sorts where spirits await resurrection.
Act 1: The pre-mortal existence
Act 2: Mortality
Intermission: Awaiting the Resurrection in the Spirit World
Act 3: Our resurrection, judgment and reconciliation with God
I also like the specific point that [B]@sojourner[/B], (citing an author) made. “… a culture that does not affirm life after death does not speculate about it” I think this is correct to a certain extent. Since the creators of your modern religious movement did not retain the ancient concept of a spirit when your religion was created, your religion will neither recognize nor use the ancient scriptures in the same way the ancients did when they referred to spirits.
THE EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS IN BIBLICAL LITERATURE.
The concept of the existence of spirits existing inside mankind is indeed, referred to in scripture and in a great deal of Early Judeo-Christian literature. (I gave more than 30 examples in post 127-128). Keep in mind that your religious movement is a different religion that early Christianity and your texts and your interpretations are different than that of the earliest Christians.
For examples :
In Luke 23:46 Jesus says, upon the death of his body, “into thy hands I commend my spirit” - Jesus cannot commend his spirit if he does not have a spirit. Thus, Jesus had a spirit.
Gal. 5:17 says “flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh” - The flesh cannot “lust against” a spirit that doesn’t exist.
In Ps. 16:10 (or Acts 2:27, 31) the psalmist rejoices that God “thou wilt not leave my spirit in hell” – A spirit must exist if it is to be “left” anywhere.
James 4:5 "spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy" – A spirit dwells in us that is capable of lust.
Job 14:22 his spirit within him shall mourn – The spirit within man can mourn.
Ps. 22:29 none can keep alive his own spirit – A living spirit must exist in the first place if one is unable to keep it alive.
Matt. 10:28 fear him which is able to destroy both spirit and body – A spirit must exist if it can be destroyed.
Hebrews 12:9 "...be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" -- one cannot Be the Father of spirits unless spirit exist.
James 1:21 engrafted word, which is able to save your spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be saved.
1 Pet. 1:22 ye have purified your spirit in obeying – A spirit must exist if it can be purified.
Ezek. 11:19 (36:26–27; 37:14) I will put a new spirit within you – A spirit must exist if it is to be put into us.
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me – A spirit must exist if it either has or lacks something. .
Acts 7:59 Stephen ... saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be received.
Acts 23:8 Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit – The concept of a spirit existed, else the concept could not have been denied by the Sadducees.
Rom. 8:16 spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be witnessed to.
1 Cor. 6:20 glorify God in your body, and in your spirit – A spirit must exist if it can “glorify God”.
Such biblical texts reference this belief that mankind has a dual nature, spirit and body. While you’ve notice frequently that the words “spirit” and “soul” are conflated both by readers and by texts to mean the same thing, technically, they are not. [B]@Katzpur[/B] described the early Christian concept that when a spirit is united with a body, it then becomes a living “soul”. Still, much of Christianity, including writers and translators, often use the terms “soul” and “spirit” as synonyms.
We have evidence that this confusion existed anciently as well. For example, the Gospel of Phillip explains the early basic Christian belief that “The soul of Adam came into being by means of a breath, which is a synonym for spirit.” (the actual text says "synonym for spirit")
Regarding the early Judeo-Christian belief that Adam was a “dual” being (i.e. consisting of spirit and body).
In Genesis 2:7 the dual nature of man correlates to the dual sentences describing the process of creating a living adam.
a) The creation of a lifeless body
The first sentence Ch 2 vs 7 describes the creation of Adams body : “And God shaped man, taking dust from the earth.” This is a body, but it is lifeless, unintelligent, unemotional, unthinking, without independent will of it’s own.
Early Judeo-Christian literature assumes this model in its narratives.
For example, In discourse on abbaton, God leaves Adams lifeless body without putting a spirit in it for some time as it was known that Adam would fall and mankind would commit many great sins upon the earth and oppress and harm himself and others.
The narrative has Jesus saying to His Father, "Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him." And My Father said unto Me, "If I put breath into him, My beloved son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to primal state." And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command."
Thus God puts breath, which Phillip tells us was a synonym for a spirit, into the lifeless body.
b) The addition of the spirit to the body
The second sentence is “And he ‘breathed’ into his face, the breath of life and man became a living soul”. In early Christian worldviews, this references the placing of a spirit into Adam to create a living soul (i.e. a spirit in a living body)
The word “breathed” here is ενεφυσησεν (LXX)., the base word is φυσιοω (physio) and though it can mean to “puff up”, in φυσις (Physis) it means “nature” (it’s where we get the word “physical’ in English). Adam became part of the natural, living world by means of this second part of this dual process when he had something put into his lifeless body.
In early Christian worldviews, the thing put into Adam was not merely “breath” or “air” or “wind”, rather the thing put into adam gave his body “intelligence”, “emotions”, “will” and other characteristics of intelligent life. In early Christianity, A spirit was placed into Adams lifeless body. Mere wind, or air, or breath does not instill these qualities of intelligence and emotion and will, etc.
Thus the Christian teaching was that “Adam came into being from two virgins, from the Spirit and from the virgin earth. “ (gos Phillip)
This simple concept permeates early Judeo-Christian literature. In Apo Adam, God stood in Adam’s presence and repeats this same early tradition, saying : ‘Adam, why were you sighing in your hearts? Do you not know that I am God who created you, and that I breathed into you a spirit of life for a living soul?’ The Apocalypse of Adam 2:1-6-7, ch 3:1;
As another example, in early Christianity the patriarch Napthali taugh that “…the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2
The point is that the earliest literature describes and assumes there was an intelligent spirit which was “clothed” by a body.
This process of “clothing” a spirit with a body is reflected in the symbolic duality of much of early literature. For example, when biblical Daniel 7:15 uses the phrase “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”, the same sort of duality is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, “and my breath [spirit] within its sheath.”
JUST AS THE PROCESS OF LIFE INVOLVES PLACING A SPIRIT INTO A BODY. THE PROCESS OF DEATH INVOLVES REMOVAL OF A SPIRIT FROM ITS BODY.
In early Judeo-Christian literature, just as Adams spirit entered into his body and Adam became alive (a living soul). Conversely, when a spirit is leaving the body, the body weakens and dies. For example, Abraham says to the angel during his ascension “...I can no longer see, because I am weakened and my spirit is departing from me.” The Apocalypse of Abraham 16:1-4;.
This symbolism of a spirit being “clothed” with a body (i.e. “earthly clothing”) carried over to the symbolism surrounding resurrection in that resurrection was also described as a process of placing a spirit into “clothes of glory”, Judeo-Christian Enochian literature describes this process.
POST TWO OF FOUR FOLLOWS
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