Does it matter what we believe if we don’t love one another ?

[Aupmanyav]

So every one decides for himself as to what is literal and what is not. With that not much of Bible will survive.

 

[nPeace]

I am an atheist. For me, prophecies or prophets are fakes or psychologically challenged. At best a person can give his guess, like "Will we ever colonize Mars?".
Hindu sages and philosophers never gave prophecies. If what one says stands the test of time, then he is considered wise.
For example, the scheme of creation of universe or appearance of humans in Abrahamic religions has not stood the test of time.

Well that's my point. I am a Christian, and your Hindu ideas mean nothing to me.
I thought you would understand that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, we have our differences. We have differences even in Christianity and Hinduism.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why are all Baha'is implementing those teachings in their lives?

"All"? I doubt very much that even a small minority of Baha'is are even close implementing "all" the teachings. If the majority of Baha'is were kind, loving, humble and all of the rest of those virtues, then Baha'is wouldn't have to talk so much about their religion. It would be obvious by their lives that there is something there.

Christians, and I'm sure other religions, face that problem too. A Christian or a Baha'i in name only... their lives blend right in with all the rest of the people around them. Maybe they don't lie as much, or cheat as much as others, but not in a significant amount as to make them stand out as holy, righteous people. Except maybe when Christians are at church and Baha'is are at their feast. Then, I sure, they are near perfect examples of holiness.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"All"? I doubt very much that even a small minority of Baha'is are even close implementing "all" the teachings. If the majority of Baha'is were kind, loving, humble and all of the rest of those virtues, then Baha'is wouldn't have to talk so much about their religion. It would be obvious by their lives that there is something there.

Christians, and I'm sure other religions, face that problem too. A Christian or a Baha'i in name only... their lives blend right in with all the rest of the people around them. Maybe they don't lie as much, or cheat as much as others, but not in a significant amount as to make them stand out as holy, righteous people. Except maybe when Christians are at church and Baha'is are at their feast. Then, I sure, they are near perfect examples of holiness.

Then let us all just live this prayer.

O Thou kind Lord! Thou hast created all humanity from the same stock. Thou hast decreed that all shall belong to the same household. In Thy Holy Presence they are all Thy servants, and all mankind are sheltered beneath Thy Tabernacle; all have gathered together at Thy Table of Bounty; all are illumined through the light of Thy Providence.

O God! Thou art kind to all, Thou hast provided for all, dost shelter all, conferrest life upon all. Thou hast endowed each and all with talents and faculties, and all are submerged in the Ocean of Thy Mercy.

O Thou kind Lord! Unite all. Let the religions agree and make the nations one, so that they may see each other as one family and the whole earth as one home. May they all live together in perfect harmony.

O God! Raise aloft the banner of the oneness of mankind.

O God! Establish the Most Great Peace.

Cement Thou, O God, the hearts together.

O Thou kind Father, God! Gladden our hearts through the fragrance of Thy love. Brighten our eyes through the Light of Thy Guidance. Delight our ears with the melody of Thy Word, and shelter us all in the Stronghold of Thy Providence.

Thou art the Mighty and Powerful, Thou art the Forgiving and Thou art the One Who overlooketh the shortcomings of all mankind.

—Bahá’u’lláh

Link to more

A Selection of Bahá’í Prayers

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Well that's my point. I am a Christian, and your Hindu ideas mean nothing to me.
I thought you would understand that.

That's one thing I like about the Baha'is Faith... almost. Is that they say that they believe all the religions are true. But then they turn around and say what's wrong with the way each one of them actually believes. You and Aupmanyav are examples of that. Baha'is don't believe in the Christianity you hold as true, and they don't believe in the Hindu beliefs of Aupmanyav. So, what do they believe is true about Christianity and Hinduism? It's their own interpretation of them. But their version of Christianity and Hinduism don't really exist. They are fictional creations of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

Then let us all just live this prayer.

O Thou kind Lord! Thou hast created all humanity from the same stock. Thou hast decreed that all shall belong to the same household. In Thy Holy Presence they are all Thy servants, and all mankind are sheltered beneath Thy Tabernacle; all have gathered together at Thy Table of Bounty; all are illumined through the light of Thy Providence.

O God! Thou art kind to all, Thou hast provided for all, dost shelter all, conferrest life upon all. Thou hast endowed each and all with talents and faculties, and all are submerged in the Ocean of Thy Mercy.

O Thou kind Lord! Unite all. Let the religions agree and make the nations one, so that they may see each other as one family and the whole earth as one home. May they all live together in perfect harmony.

O God! Raise aloft the banner of the oneness of mankind.

O God! Establish the Most Great Peace.

Cement Thou, O God, the hearts together.

O Thou kind Father, God! Gladden our hearts through the fragrance of Thy love. Brighten our eyes through the Light of Thy Guidance. Delight our ears with the melody of Thy Word, and shelter us all in the Stronghold of Thy Providence.

Thou art the Mighty and Powerful, Thou art the Forgiving and Thou art the One Who overlooketh the shortcomings of all mankind.

—Bahá’u’lláh

Link to more

A Selection of Bahá’í Prayers

Regards Tony

Ideally, you'd think everyone would want to live in peace and unity. But... unless the Baha'i thing about a "new race" of men happens, the "old" race of men isn't going to be able to live in peace and unity. Assuming there is a God and the Baha'is Faith is true, do you think God will change the hearts and minds of people enough to make them capable of being more love and spiritual? Or, is God going to wait for more and more people to change themselves?

 

[MonkeyFire]

Love won’t mean a thing… if it doesn’t have faith/belief in life.

 

[CG Didymus]

So every one decides for himself as to what is literal and what is not. With that not much of Bible will survive.

Not that I think the Bible and NT are believable literally, but... I can see why some Christians call for it to be believed as literally as possible. Afterall, why follow the book if it's just a book of myths and legends?

But then you have the same situation in Hinduism. Do some believe the stories literally? Or do they see them as fictional stories that are meant to convey spiritual truths? I suspect that some do believe very literally. Then, does it become like with some Christians? And some people start believing in Gods, demons, and all sorts of other superstitious kinds of things? Which to me is strange, but to them, those things are very real. Like those Christians that believe Elijah got taken away into the sky in a fiery chariot. And that Jesus floated up into the clouds.

 

[CG Didymus]

Love won’t mean a thing… if it doesn’t have faith/belief in life.

But faith and belief in what? Like a Mormon and a Catholic have very different beliefs. But if they have "faith" in what their religion teaches, they can be very loving people. But one or both of them are believing things that aren't true. Oh, and might as well add in the Baha'is. If they follow their teachings, they will love all people and not hold any prejudices against them no matter what race, gender or religions they belong to. But, compared to your beliefs, are any of them true?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ideally, you'd think everyone would want to live in peace and unity. But... unless the Baha'i thing about a "new race" of men happens, the "old" race of men isn't going to be able to live in peace and unity. Assuming there is a God and the Baha'is Faith is true, do you think God will change the hearts and minds of people enough to make them capable of being more love and spiritual? Or, is God going to wait for more and more people to change themselves?

No one can offer what God's plan is CG, but what is contained in the Messages that God has given us.

I see God knows all. As such, God knows what is best for us and the guidance given is applicable to achieve that purpose.

Abdul'baha was that example and when you read what he offered, and how He lived His life, I am now considering he never offered a bad word against any Nation or people.

I see that is a flaw we can fall into. We need to encourage the change of mindsets set in tyranny and war by not hating the persons, but showing there are other choices.

The more we unite, the more we will find the ways to alter the direction humanity is heading in.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

No one can offer what God's plan is CG, but what is contained in the Messages that God has given us.

I see God knows all. As such, God knows what is best for us and the guidance given is applicable to achieve that purpose.

Abdul'baha was that example and when you read what he offered, and how He lived His life, I am now considering he never offered a bad word against any Nation or people.

I see that is a flaw we can fall into. We need to encourage the change of mindsets set in tyranny and war by not hating the persons, but showing there are other choices.

The more we unite, the more we will find the ways to alter the direction humanity is heading in.

Regards Tony

To again assume the Baha'is are right, none of the other manifestations were able to bring peace even to the people where they lived and taught their message. And, how long after their death, did their message get mangled by their followers? Unless God changes people, it's more likely that corrupt people are going to change God's religion. Top Baha'is have already fallen and have broken the Baha'i covenant. How many more will try to take control and leadership? Even if it's for the apparent good. Like becoming too authoritative and controlling?

 

[nPeace]

That's one thing I like about the Baha'is Faith... almost. Is that they say that they believe all the religions are true. But then they turn around and say what's wrong with the way each one of them actually believes. You and Aupmanyav are examples of that. Baha'is don't believe in the Christianity you hold as true, and they don't believe in the Hindu beliefs of Aupmanyav. So, what do they believe is true about Christianity and Hinduism? It's their own interpretation of them. But their version of Christianity and Hinduism don't really exist. They are fictional creations of the Baha'i Faith.

You say 'That's one thing I like about the Baha'is Faith'.
Do you mean that you like their spin on each religion, to create a fictional religious system that would allow them to cozy up with them?
Did I understand you correctly?
If so, is that not religious adultery?

 

[nPeace]

No one can offer what God's plan is CG, but what is contained in the Messages that God has given us.

I see God knows all. As such, God knows what is best for us and the guidance given is applicable to achieve that purpose.

Abdul'baha was that example and when you read what he offered, and how He lived His life, I am now considering he never offered a bad word against any Nation or people.

I see that is a flaw we can fall into. We need to encourage the change of mindsets set in tyranny and war by not hating the persons, but showing there are other choices.

The more we unite, the more we will find the ways to alter the direction humanity is heading in.

Regards Tony

I'm confused How is unity achieved with disunity? Isn't that just tolerance... as long as no one tries to correct the other?

Is it not the same as one telling a man like Herod, 'Sure, no problem, sleep with your brother's wife. I'll keep my mouth shut, so we can be pals.'?

So you agree with me that Bahais disregard the Bible all together?
All of God's people were hated, and killed for speaking the truth, which those who went contrary, were not happy to hear.
(Matthew 14:3-4) 3 Herod had arrested John and had bound him and imprisoned him because of Herodias, the wife of Philip his brother. 4 For John had been saying to him: “It is not lawful for you to have her.”

From Moses, right down to John the Baptist, to Jesus and his apostles.

(Matthew 10:32-39) 32 “Everyone, then, who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father who is in the heavens. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens. 34 Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.

Jeremiah 7:25-28
The Bahais have gone completely contrary to that - making an about face, and committing religious adultery. Is that not true, Tony? Can you explain how that's not true.

 

[CG Didymus]

You say 'That's one thing I like about the Baha'is Faith'.
Do you mean that you like their spin on each religion, to create a fictional religious system that would allow them to cozy up with them?
Did I understand you correctly?
If so, is that not religious adultery?

That's why I said, "almost". It sounds good when they first say it, but then they ruin it by defining what they really mean. I really don't think they believe in any religion, other than themselves, as knowing the truth and teaching the truth right now. What they claim is the "original" teachings of the prophet/manifestation were all true and didn't contradict each other. They blame the leaders and followers of the prophet to have messed things up. But Baha'is really don't necessarily believe the Scriptures in the other religions either. To that they say that the followers misinterpreted the things said by the prophet. I don't like their "spin" on the other religions at all.

So, what I meant was that, for me, it's better than what some Christians do when they say that they are the only ones that are true and all the other religions are false. I think all the religions, very possibly, could be mostly made-up by people. That they invented myths and legends about Gods and God/men and things evolved from there. But I understand why people in the different religions would want to believe their religion is true. Because that is kind of the only way a religion can be effective.

 

[nPeace]

That's why I said, "almost". It sounds good when they first say it, but then they ruin it by defining what they really mean. I really don't think they believe in any religion, other than themselves, as knowing the truth and teaching the truth right now. What they claim is the "original" teachings of the prophet/manifestation were all true and didn't contradict each other. They blame the leaders and followers of the prophet to have messed things up. But Baha'is really don't necessarily believe the Scriptures in the other religions either. To that they say that the followers misinterpreted the things said by the prophet. I don't like their "spin" on the other religions at all.

So, what I meant was that, for me, it's better than what some Christians do when they say that they are the only ones that are true and all the other religions are false. I think all the religions, very possibly, could be mostly made-up by people. That they invented myths and legends about Gods and God/men and things evolved from there. But I understand why people in the different religions would want to believe their religion is true. Because that is kind of the only way a religion can be effective.

What do you think about Jesus Christ and his disciples Do you think they had any connection at all to worship of the true God?

 

[Polymath257]

At least those people are more sensible, from what I can see, because they don't ignore the sad consequences of people in modern times who try to follow 'their own' ideas, which change like the shifting wind.

Capital punishment. Yes. No. Wait. Yes. Uh... No.
Corporal punishment. Yes. No. Wait. Yes. Uh... No.
....
They don't seem to know what works.

And how many controlled studies of either have been done?

Also, what does science have to do with morality? Nothing.

It can inform. But I agree, science cannot determine values and goals.

"human well-being and fulfillment." ...and what is that may I ask?
Ripping the life of a developing human from its protective life support, piece by piece?
Allowing freedom to use harmful substances, known to be dangerous to one's health... and others?
...

You mean giving women bodily autonomy so they re not slaves to a fetus that has no consciousness?

"human well-being and fulfillment" can be anything that makes one happy, even if another suffers, or dies.
Isn't that so.

Well, slavery is a good example. It makes the owner happy, but not the slave. Human fulfillment dictates against slavery.

Also, you don't get to demand someone donate their organs simply to allow you to live, even if they are the only possible donor.

Sounds good. Does it work in practice.
So far, I don't see any measuring line that is unchanging and standard, for which an Atheist can 'test' 'their morality'.
I have no idea what that would look like. Except... their own view winning out against a more practical suggestion.

Well, that is part of the point: it needs to be figured out. That means testing and trying to understand what helps people the most.

 

[CG Didymus]

What do you think about Jesus Christ and his disciples Do you think they had any connection at all to worship of the true God?

I first learned about the Baha'i Faith before I learned about Evangelistic/Fundamental/born-again/Protestant Christianity. I liked the idea that God had sent different messengers at different times and different places. Then, they explained, the followers of the messengers misinterpreted the message and added their own understandings into it and the religion got messed up. Then a friend "found" Jesus. He took me to Bible studies, and I found out that the NT is very clear about some of the things Baha'is said were wrong. A couple of years later, I went into a Jewish bookstore and asked them, "Baha'is say they came from you. Christians say they came from you. Yet... you don't believe either one of them. Why is that?" He didn't immediately answer. He said that they can believe what they want to. But I kept pressing him. He finally showed my three little books that explained the reasons why Christianity and the belief that Jesus is the Messiah didn't fit with the Bible.

What I learned from that, is if you want to get technical, Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies as written. Then carry that over to the claims of the Baha'i Faith, and they didn't fulfill the prophecies for the Messiah or for the return of Jesus either. If you want to be picky about it. And I kind of do want to get picky about it. How much can a prophecy be manipulated before it becomes meaningless? Then there are the one verse prophecies that are taken out of context. Christians have them and Baha'is have them.

Sorry, I don't trust religious people for telling me the truth. Each has their reasons to believe in their religion. And, to them, everything makes so much sense and is so clear. But what is clear to you, might not be clear to Baha'is or even other Christians. What's clear to Baha'is is a wrong and twisted interpretation of the Bible and the NT. To me, neither of you are right. I think people had too much input into their Scriptures to make them dependable and to be inerrant and infallible. Even the Baha'i Scriptures... even though they were written by their prophet. I don't believe it is the inerrant truth from God.

Either one of you may be right. I'm still open to learning more and hearing your reasons why you believe as you do. But I think the Atheists have some very good points too... Starting with, if there is a God, where is the proof? Christians give their evidence. Baha'is give theirs. And I'm listening to both. I haven't heard anything all that convincing yet.

Although I like the all-inclusiveness aspect of the Baha'is, I don't believe Jesus or the Christ or the Maitreya or Kalki has returned yet. Just with what Christians believe about what is supposed to happen when Jesus returns, and not including what the other religions say, I don't see how the Baha'i prophet even came close to being the return of Jesus. I don't see that there were two "Messiahs" promised. I don't see what Persia has to do with it, and why not Jerusalem. I don't see why the Messiah comes and gets rejected and jailed then exiled. Of course, Baha'is find verses to support their beliefs. But, when some of those verses are taken out of context, I don't put too much trust in them. So anyway, I'm still watching and listening.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Either one of you may be right. I'm still open to learning more and hearing your reasons why you believe as you do. But I think the Atheists have some very good points too... Starting with, if there is a God, where is the proof? Christians give their evidence. Baha'is give theirs. And I'm listening to both. I haven't heard anything all that convincing yet.

I will share this thought from Shoghi Effendi CG. It shows that as an individual, we are judged on our choices, albeit what Faith or no Faith we choose. God has created us to be as One human Spirit, united, working together.

"In the "Bayan" the Bab says that every religion of the past was fit to become universal. The only reason why they failed to attain that mark was the incompetence of their followers.
He then proceeds to give a definite promise that this would not be the fate of the revelation of "Him Whom God would make manifest", that it will become universal and include all the people of the world.
This shows that we will ultimately succeed.
But could we not, through our shortcomings, failures to sacrifice and reluctance to concentrate our efforts in spreading the Cause, retard the realization of that ideal? And what would that mean? It shall mean that we will be held responsible before God, that the race will remain longer in its state of waywardness, that wars would not be so soon averted, that human suffering will last longer."

~ Selection from a letter dated 20 February 1932 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer.



Baha'is are not exempt from Judgement CG, this is 'Judgement Day', so we as Baha'is and all others peoples of Faith and no Faith, also have our Battles in Faith CG. To accept Baha'u'llah is only one step to starting the journey to find ones own self and to bring about the Unity of all Humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[MonkeyFire]

But faith and belief in what? Like a Mormon and a Catholic have very different beliefs. But if they have "faith" in what their religion teaches, they can be very loving people. But one or both of them are believing things that aren't true. Oh, and might as well add in the Baha'is. If they follow their teachings, they will love all people and not hold any prejudices against them no matter what race, gender or religions they belong to. But, compared to your beliefs, are any of them true?

it’s say belief/faith in life, which is divine acceptance, happiness, and anti-toxicity.