Does it matter what we believe if we don’t love one another ?

[Heyo]

Unity is the enemy of diversity.

There is a fine line between unity and conformity.

 

[nPeace]

I first learned about the Baha'i Faith before I learned about Evangelistic/Fundamental/born-again/Protestant Christianity. I liked the idea that God had sent different messengers at different times and different places. Then, they explained, the followers of the messengers misinterpreted the message and added their own understandings into it and the religion got messed up. Then a friend "found" Jesus. He took me to Bible studies, and I found out that the NT is very clear about some of the things Baha'is said were wrong. A couple of years later, I went into a Jewish bookstore and asked them, "Baha'is say they came from you. Christians say they came from you. Yet... you don't believe either one of them. Why is that?" He didn't immediately answer. He said that they can believe what they want to. But I kept pressing him. He finally showed my three little books that explained the reasons why Christianity and the belief that Jesus is the Messiah didn't fit with the Bible.

What I learned from that, is if you want to get technical, Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies as written. Then carry that over to the claims of the Baha'i Faith, and they didn't fulfill the prophecies for the Messiah or for the return of Jesus either. If you want to be picky about it. And I kind of do want to get picky about it. How much can a prophecy be manipulated before it becomes meaningless? Then there are the one verse prophecies that are taken out of context. Christians have them and Baha'is have them.

Sorry, I don't trust religious people for telling me the truth. Each has their reasons to believe in their religion. And, to them, everything makes so much sense and is so clear. But what is clear to you, might not be clear to Baha'is or even other Christians. What's clear to Baha'is is a wrong and twisted interpretation of the Bible and the NT. To me, neither of you are right. I think people had too much input into their Scriptures to make them dependable and to be inerrant and infallible. Even the Baha'i Scriptures... even though they were written by their prophet. I don't believe it is the inerrant truth from God.

Either one of you may be right. I'm still open to learning more and hearing your reasons why you believe as you do. But I think the Atheists have some very good points too... Starting with, if there is a God, where is the proof? Christians give their evidence. Baha'is give theirs. And I'm listening to both. I haven't heard anything all that convincing yet.

Although I like the all-inclusiveness aspect of the Baha'is, I don't believe Jesus or the Christ or the Maitreya or Kalki has returned yet. Just with what Christians believe about what is supposed to happen when Jesus returns, and not including what the other religions say, I don't see how the Baha'i prophet even came close to being the return of Jesus. I don't see that there were two "Messiahs" promised. I don't see what Persia has to do with it, and why not Jerusalem. I don't see why the Messiah comes and gets rejected and jailed then exiled. Of course, Baha'is find verses to support their beliefs. But, when some of those verses are taken out of context, I don't put too much trust in them. So anyway, I'm still watching and listening.

Wow. You said a lot there, but you haven't answered my question.
Just set Bahai aside. Just pretend I am not Christian. In fact, pretend Christianity doesn't exist today, and pretend I am just some Joe. I'm asking you...
What do you think about Jesus Christ and his disciples Do you think they had any connection at all to worship of the true God?

 

[Aupmanyav]

What do you think about Jesus Christ and his disciples Do you think they had any connection at all to worship of the true God?

Is there any God? Jesus was just one of the 'wiser than you' persons. A lucky few succeed in their life time (Moses, Mohammad for example, Jesus did not). The rest are consigned to the dustbin of history. His disciples do not matter. It was Constantine who mattered.

 

[CG Didymus]

"In the "Bayan" the Bab says that every religion of the past was fit to become universal. The only reason why they failed to attain that mark was the incompetence of their followers.

"Every" religion? Baha'is do believe that some religions were man-made don't they? But then the major religions... Do Baha'is believe that any of the Scriptures of any of the other religions are accurate? And even if you say the Quran, even Islam became divided into different sects. And how was Judaism ever going to become universal? Most people are born into it and very few convert into it. And I don't see Jews out there trying to make converts.

Even with the Baha'i Faith... One set of laws and one religion for all? Plus, if it does become the religion of all the people, then it's going to be the government too. Even in a small city, are Baha'is competent enough to run everything? Right now, in cities that have a few thousand Baha'is, are the Baha'i leaders in that city competent enough to keep the Baha'i community running smoothly?

 

[CG Didymus]

What do you think about Jesus Christ and his disciples Do you think they had any connection at all to worship of the true God?

I think there are reasons to question just how accurate the NT is. Without trusting the gospels and the rest of the NT, there is no way to know. But, to take the NT as accurate, also means that the Hebrew Bible must accepted as being true and accurate. That's even more difficult. So, I believe that Jews have their Scriptures, and some Jews try to follow them the best they can. I agree with them that there are problems with the claims of Christianity... that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies and is their Messiah.

For Christians, those things aren't a problem. I'd say that a good Christian should believe the NT and follow it. But, for me, I think some of the stories have been embellished. I can't at this time believe some of those things really happened. So, what and how much can I trust of the Bible and the NT? Right now, I can't say if some things or anything about Jesus and the disciples and anything about a God is true. Like I said, I learned about the Baha'i Faith before learning about born-again types of Christianity. I like more things about the Baha'i Faith than I do about Christianity. But I don't even believe enough about them to believe they are true and from God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Is there any God? Jesus was just one of the 'wiser than you' persons. A lucky few succeed in their life time (Moses, Mohammad for example, Jesus did not). The rest are consigned to the dustbin of history. His disciples do not matter. It was Constantine who mattered.

You know, that's an important point and ties in with what Tony said about all religions becoming universal. If not for Constantine, and what later become the Universal or the Catholic Church, where would Christianity be? Protestants, Muslims, and Baha'is probably don't believe much about what that early Christian Church taught. Yet, they came close to dominating the world.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You know, that's an important point and ties in with what Tony said about all religions becoming universal. If not for Constantine, and what later become the Universal or the Catholic Church, where would Christianity be? Protestants, Muslims, and Baha'is probably don't believe much about what that early Christian Church taught. Yet, they came close to dominating the world.

Little by little day by day CG. Here is a meeting of world religions at the Baha'i Conference centre in Haifa Israel.

Regards Tony

 

[nPeace]

Is there any God?

There is - The true God.

Jesus was just one of the 'wiser than you' persons. A lucky few succeed in their life time (Moses, Mohammad for example, Jesus did not). The rest are consigned to the dustbin of history. His disciples do not matter. It was Constantine who mattered.

You said you are an Atheist. You know why you choose to believe that.

 

[nPeace]

I think there are reasons to question just how accurate the NT is. Without trusting the gospels and the rest of the NT, there is no way to know. But, to take the NT as accurate, also means that the Hebrew Bible must accepted as being true and accurate. That's even more difficult. So, I believe that Jews have their Scriptures, and some Jews try to follow them the best they can. I agree with them that there are problems with the claims of Christianity... that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies and is their Messiah.

For Christians, those things aren't a problem. I'd say that a good Christian should believe the NT and follow it. But, for me, I think some of the stories have been embellished. I can't at this time believe some of those things really happened. So, what and how much can I trust of the Bible and the NT? Right now, I can't say if some things or anything about Jesus and the disciples and anything about a God is true. Like I said, I learned about the Baha'i Faith before learning about born-again types of Christianity. I like more things about the Baha'i Faith than I do about Christianity. But I don't even believe enough about them to believe they are true and from God.

Okay, thanks for that.
So basically, you don't trust any religious person.
What would you require, in order to trust any of them?
Again.... I'm not referring to Bahais or Christian, or other religions people today.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and Baha'is probably don't believe much about what that early Christian Church taught. Yet, they came close to dominating the world.

I do not see Bahais dominating the world with their 5-7 million followers. In spite of all their bravura, even Ahmadiyyas (followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) are more than them at 10-20 million.

 

[Aupmanyav]

World Religions meets are common in India.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is - The true God.

You have no evidence to support that.

You said you are an Atheist. You know why you choose to believe that.

This is history and not belief. There are and have been thousands in Abrahamic religions claiming to be representatives of God / Allah, since no one needs to provide any evidence.

So basically, you don't trust any religious person.

Although the statement was not directed to me, I will say there are thousands of religious persons whom I would put my trust in. I just do not like loud mouths.

 

[nPeace]

You have no evidence to support that.

I do have evidence.

This is history and not belief.

That's your belief. I have historical evidence Do you accept it? Or is that my belief?

There are and have been thousands in Abrahamic religions claiming to be representatives of God / Allah, since no one needs to provide any evidence.

What do you mean by "no one needs to provide any evidence"? Did you not just claim I have no evidence for God?
Please help. You're confusing me.

Although the statement was not directed to me, I will say there are thousands of religious persons whom I would put my trust in.

Thousands Okay, why do you put your trust in thousands of religious persons?

I just do not like loud mouths.

What's a loudmouth? Is that someone who shouts, or someone who speaks the truth, that you prefer not to hear? Was Jeremiah, John the Baptist, and Jesus a loudmouth?

 

[CG Didymus]

Okay, thanks for that.
So basically, you don't trust any religious person.
What would you require, in order to trust any of them?
Again.... I'm not referring to Bahais or Christian, or other religions people today.

Even with just Christianity, which Christian should I trust? A Catholic, a Presbyterian, a Jehovah Witness, a Pentacostal? Each can show me Bible verses that support their interpretation. But then there are those that try to follow the best of what their religious beliefs have to offer. And... just how much does it matter what they believe? A Mormon, a Jew, a Hindu, anybody in any religion can become a kind, loving person by putting their beliefs into practice. Then there are some Christians that believe that what a person believes is the most important thing. They must have the correct beliefs or God and Jesus will reject them... no matter how "good" they think they are.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do have evidence.
That's your belief. I have historical evidence Do you accept it? Or is that my belief?

What do you mean by "no one needs to provide any evidence"? Did you not just claim I have no evidence for God?
Please help. You're confusing me.

Thousands Okay, why do you put your trust in thousands of religious persons?

What's a loudmouth? Is that someone who shouts, or someone who speaks the truth, that you prefer not to hear? Was Jeremiah, John the Baptist, and Jesus a loudmouth?

Please present the evidence.
Those who claim to be representatives of God in monotheist (Zoroastrianism) or Abrahamic religions have never given any evidence.
They are wrong as far as their beliefs go, but they may be otherwise nice dependable persons, as my best friend who is a Jain.
Yes. They were not speaking truth if that is what they said (It is questionable whether some of these people even existed or not). They did not give any evidence of what they said. I will term such people as 'loud mouths'.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not see Bahais dominating the world with their 5-7 million followers. In spite of all their bravura, even Ahmadiyyas (followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) are more than them at 10-20 million.

They don't talk about them unless you mention them. Another religious group they ignore is the Sikhs, which is what? Like four or five times larger than the Baha'is. But the Baha'i Faith is a religion that is actively seeking to "teach" their religion. So, you'd think that they would have convinced more people and have gotten them to join by now. So, what is it about them that is so unconvincing? For me, it's getting to be that they are so sure they are right that I think they must be wrong.

 

[nPeace]

Even with just Christianity, which Christian should I trust? A Catholic, a Presbyterian, a Jehovah Witness, a Pentacostal? Each can show me Bible verses that support their interpretation. But then there are those that try to follow the best of what their religious beliefs have to offer. And... just how much does it matter what they believe? A Mormon, a Jew, a Hindu, anybody in any religion can become a kind, loving person by putting their beliefs into practice. Then there are some Christians that believe that what a person believes is the most important thing. They must have the correct beliefs or God and Jesus will reject them... no matter how "good" they think they are.

Hope you are not avoiding the question.
What would you require, in order to trust any religious people?
I'm not referring to Bahais or Christian, or other religions people today.

 

[Aupmanyav]

They don't talk about them unless you mention them. Another religious group they ignore is the Sikhs, which is what? Like four or five times larger than the Baha'is. But the Baha'i Faith is a religion that is actively seeking to "teach" their religion. So, you'd think that they would have convinced more people and have gotten them to join by now. So, what is it about them that is so unconvincing? For me, it's getting to be that they are so sure they are right that I think they must be wrong.

Sikhs number at around 25 million, demonstrably one of the most loving people in the world. Wherever there are Sikhs (and they are nearly everywhere), there are 'langars' (their free kitchens). Any one can stay for free in their 'Gurudwaras' if the 'Gurudwara' has this facility. They do not make any differentiation on religion or race. Where there is no 'gurudwara', individuals do it on their own. They are the first people to volunteer in case of a mishap. I am speaking of Sikhs in general and not of all individuals.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hope you are not avoiding the question.
What would you require, in order to trust any religious people?
I'm not referring to Bahais or Christian, or other religions people today.

That is the answer. Because there are so many religions and sects within religions. Each sect has their own interpretation of what is true. How can I trust any of them? I don't require anything from any of them. If I told you that I require something specific, I'm sure you and several others, that held different views, would provide it. The Baha'is are a great example. They'll provide me with their interpretations of Bible verses and quote me some things from their prophet. It all will sound believable. I fell for it once, but now I'm too skeptical of them and Christians. There's nothing I need from people. And people's religion and Scriptures are still from people. They all talk of Gods and God and will tell me how true and accurate those Scriptures are. Sorry, I don't trust them. So, it would have to be something beyond what people say and believe and beyond the books they write that talk about God. And I'm sure you believe you have that something the is beyond... something that is supernatural. But again, everybody thinks they have that something that is "beond".
.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sikhs number at around 25 million, demonstrably one of the most loving people in the world. Wherever there are Sikhs (and they are nearly everywhere), there are 'langars' (their free kitchens). Any one can stay for free in their 'Gurudwaras' if the 'Gurudwara' has this facility. They do not make any differentiation on religion or race. Where there is no 'gurudwara', individuals do it on their own. They are the first people to volunteer in case of a mishap. I am speaking of Sikhs in general and not of all individuals.

Yes, I know a few Sikhs here where I live in California. I had to ask them about their religion. Not like some religions that don't wait to be asked but find a way to bring it up. Or, like some Christians, just come up to you and say, "Did you know that God loves you"? Baha'is are a little more subtle as we can see by the titles of some of their threads. Once a person responds, then sooner or later they are going to get a strong dose of Baha'u'llah and his teachings.