Does it matter what we believe if we don’t love one another ?

[Aupmanyav]

I think you are the one with the imagination, and your own indoctrination. We all are ruled by someone or something.

It is not my imagination. It is a scientific fact. There is nothing other than 'physical energy' in the universe. All forms and perception is because of it. Call it man, dog or stone, all that exists is 'physical energy' only. And that is what we probably started with, 'a small ball of energy'.

Hindu philosophers knew it more than 2,000 years ago. Here is what Sage Uddalaka Aruni said to his son, Shvetaketu, in Chandogya Upanishad:

"Yathā somya, aikena mṛtpiṇḍena sarvaṃ mṛnmayaṃ vijñātaṃ syād vācārambhaṇaṃ vikāro nāmadheyaṃ mṛttiketyeva satyam." 6.1.4
O young man, it is like this. By knowing a single lump of earth you know all objects made of earth. All changes are mere words, in name only. But earth is the reality.
Chandogya Upanishad, Verse 6.1.4 (English and Sanskrit)

 

[Aupmanyav]

“How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? .."

It will persist till humans are there on the face of earth. IMHO, no prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi can change that. They can only add to the chaos.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'u'llah created Badi to perform that task of delivering that Message to the Shah.

Kindly explain the underlined. Is Bahaollah Allah to have created Badi? It is only that this person was misguided and fool enough to go to Shah with his views.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Kindly explain the underlined. Is Bahaollah Allah to have created Badi? It is only that this person was misguided and fool enough to go to Shah with his views.

This is a great story, it is amazing part of history yet to be considered by many. I will post a link to his story, but will give a few points after the link.

Badi, Áqá Buzurg

"Áqá Buzurg-i-Nishapuri, known to most western Bahá'ís as Badí', was born in 1853, the son of Hájí 'Abdu'l-Majid-i-Nishapuri, known as Aba Badí' (Father of Badí'). Aba Badí' was an outstanding believer of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, and also eventually found martyrdom. Badí', who was a rebellious youth, eventually became a dedicated believer."

He was a rebellious youth but in the end, he walked from Persia to Akka to meet Baha'u'llah and this is what is recorded.

"..Badí' was given two interviews by Bahá'u'lláh; during the course of these, The King of Glory made reference to a revealed Tablet addressed to Nasíri d-Din Shah. Bahá'u'lláh later wrote of Badí' that which was later quoted by Shoghi Effendi in God Passes By: "the spirit of might and power was breathed". Mírzá Áqá Jan remarks what Bahá'u'lláh stated: "He created him anew with the hands of power and might and sent him out as a ball of fire"."

It was an epic 4 month return journey to a fate he knew he would face, by the hands of vulgar torturers.

"....Shoghi Effendi wrote in God Passes By: "Badí' was arrested, branded for three successive days, his head beaten to a pulp with the butt of a rifle, after which his body was thrown into a pit and earth and stones heaped upon it." Badí' a youth of seventeen become, as described by Bahá’u’lláh "Fakhrú’sh-Shuháda’ (The Pride of the Martyrs)".

There is some amazing stories to be read, it was a tumultuous time, from defence of one's faith as as babi, who were still following Muslim Law, to putting down arms when the Law of Baha’u’llah was revealed.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

This is a great story, it is amazing part of history yet to be considered by many.

Tony, your story is for you. It does not necessarily mean anything to others. Be happy with your mirror Allah and the stories. I neither need any Allah nor any stories connected with him.

 

[nPeace]

It is not my imagination. It is a scientific fact. There is nothing other than 'physical energy' in the universe. All forms and perception is because of it. Call it man, dog or stone, all that exists is 'physical energy' only. And that is what we probably started with, 'a small ball of energy'.

Hindu philosophers knew it more than 2,000 years ago. Here is what Sage Uddalaka Aruni said to his son, Shvetaketu, in Chandogya Upanishad:

"Yathā somya, aikena mṛtpiṇḍena sarvaṃ mṛnmayaṃ vijñātaṃ syād vācārambhaṇaṃ vikāro nāmadheyaṃ mṛttiketyeva satyam." 6.1.4
O young man, it is like this. By knowing a single lump of earth you know all objects made of earth. All changes are mere words, in name only. But earth is the reality.
Chandogya Upanishad, Verse 6.1.4 (English and Sanskrit)

No. It's not a scientific fact.
No true scientist says they know of all the mater and energy in the universe... nor outside for that matter.

In that case, it's still your imagination, because you think a hypothetical is a fact, and you have just an idea... imagined. Sage Uddalaka Aruni also.

 

[nPeace]

Tony, your story is for you. It does not necessarily mean anything to others. Be happy with your mirror Allah and the stories. I neither need any Allah nor any stories connected with him.

Why not be happy with Sage Uddalaka Aruni and his stories? Who says Tony, or anyone needs them?

 

[Aupmanyav]

No. It's not a scientific fact.

That is what evidence points to. That is the best guess - not anyone creating the universe in six days and resting on the seventh (I would not go into contradictions in that scheme. They are well-known.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why not be happy with Sage Uddalaka Aruni and his stories? Who says Tony, or anyone needs them?

Very happy with Sage Uddalaka Aruni that he could get to the truth thousands of years ago which science has realized only now.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why not be happy with Sage Uddalaka Aruni and his stories? Who says Tony, or anyone needs them?

I like learning about the different religions that people in different times and places have invented. And some people in some religions are happy and aren't obeying the teachings of their religion if they don't go out and tell everybody else in the world about it... Which usually means that they have to tell those other people how wrong and false their beliefs are.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is a great story, it is amazing part of history yet to be considered by many. I will post a link to his story, but will give a few points after the link.

Badi, Áqá Buzurg

"Áqá Buzurg-i-Nishapuri, known to most western Bahá'ís as Badí', was born in 1853, the son of Hájí 'Abdu'l-Majid-i-Nishapuri, known as Aba Badí' (Father of Badí'). Aba Badí' was an outstanding believer of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, and also eventually found martyrdom. Badí', who was a rebellious youth, eventually became a dedicated believer."

He was a rebellious youth but in the end, he walked from Persia to Akka to meet Baha'u'llah and this is what is recorded.

"..Badí' was given two interviews by Bahá'u'lláh; during the course of these, The King of Glory made reference to a revealed Tablet addressed to Nasíri d-Din Shah. Bahá'u'lláh later wrote of Badí' that which was later quoted by Shoghi Effendi in God Passes By: "the spirit of might and power was breathed". Mírzá Áqá Jan remarks what Bahá'u'lláh stated: "He created him anew with the hands of power and might and sent him out as a ball of fire"."

It was an epic 4 month return journey to a fate he knew he would face, by the hands of vulgar torturers.

"....Shoghi Effendi wrote in God Passes By: "Badí' was arrested, branded for three successive days, his head beaten to a pulp with the butt of a rifle, after which his body was thrown into a pit and earth and stones heaped upon it." Badí' a youth of seventeen become, as described by Bahá’u’lláh "Fakhrú’sh-Shuháda’ (The Pride of the Martyrs)".

There is some amazing stories to be read, it was a tumultuous time, from defence of one's faith as as babi, who were still following Muslim Law, to putting down arms when the Law of Baha’u’llah was revealed.

Regards Tony

In some ways that story is gross to me. Why send a guy on a mission that he knows the people will not listen and will kill the young man? Are other Baha'is now supposed to be that devoted to the cause of Baha'u'llah that they give up their lives for him? I think so. I think that level of devotion is what is expected. How many people claiming to "believe" actually would go on a suicide mission for the Faith?

But then Christians have those same kind of stories. People sent to far off lands to go tell them the word of the Lord... and they get killed. And what is it that they told those people? That Jesus is God? That he is the only way? That their old religion are false and of the devil? That without Jesus they will burn in hell? Those people, according to Baha'i beliefs, died giving a false beliefs about God. Yet, they were so devoted and believed so stongly that what they believed about Jesus and God was the truth and went out and told people about it... that, without a doubt, that Christian message was the truth. But, according to Baha'is beliefs, it wasn't. It was a misinterpreted wrong belief. And those Christians sent those missionaries out and many of them were killed... for a false teaching? Of course, your beliefs are totally and completely true... to you. And I'm sure some Baha'is would bet their lives on that.

 

[nPeace]

Very happy with Sage Uddalaka Aruni that he could get to the truth thousands of years ago which science has realized only now.

The Christian says the same about the Bible.

Besides, scientists, in their limited ability, are still studying the elements of the universe. They discover new things, and they could discover that the energy in the universe is actually being sourced.

Spoiler

*** w12 6/1 p. 27 “Impossible!”—What Does It Mean? ***
In view of the many astounding developments taking place, Professor John Brobeck observed: “A scientist is no longer able to say honestly something is impossible. He can only say it is improbable. But he may be able to say something is impossible to explain in terms of our present knowledge.” If something appears impossible to us, the professor went on to say, “one thing that needs to be added is a source of energy unknown to us in our biological and physiological sciences. In our Scriptures this source of energy is identified as the power of God.”

So he is very limited in his knowledge... but tell me more about his knowledge.
What prophecies did he make, that came true?
I heard from a former Hindu that Hindu writings do not contain any prophecies..

Without that ability, there is nothing about him that makes him important... especially if he is godless, and drawing attention to his own self importance.

What else, to you, makes him someone worth listening to?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In some ways that story is gross to me. Why send a guy on a mission that he knows the people will not listen and will kill the young man? Are other Baha'is now supposed to be that devoted to the cause of Baha'u'llah that they give up their lives for him? I think so. I think that level of devotion is what is expected. How many people claiming to "believe" actually would go on a suicide mission for the Faith?

Yet the world still does not listen CG. Why are all Baha'is implementing those teachings in their lives?

It is believers such as Badi that created this world anew, made it possible, by that example, to enable other people to again choose the path to God.

That is how the Spirit works CG, it is a choice to carry the cross of Christ, and their choices have effect.

These stories are not just words on paper CG, they are Spirit and Life, so when Christ said in Mathew 16:24 "..... If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me", those words then make a new creation. From the rime they are uttered, it gave everyone a choice to embrace the Spirit of Christ and die to one's own desires.

This is why it is a path not many take, it takes amazing souls to walk the path of martyrdom, to give up their self, those hero's are the leaven of the Message of God

Mathew 13:33 "Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened".

Do you see that the sacrifice of Badi is reflected in that parable? The early believers, who gave their all, are the leaven that will eventually permeate the whole of humanity and enable it to rise from our ways.

This is how the Spirit works, it changes one soul at a time. Everything we do contributes to the whole, we are all connected by the same human spirit and as each human soul embraces the Holy Spirit, the elixir runs through to the majority.

There is a reason Abdul'baha said to replace evil and impure thoughts with heavenly and pure thoughts, as our minds are connected. The more people that choose violence, the more the whole is drawn towards violence.

This is why Materialism permeates our way of life, thus is why to choose a new Faith is a new creation, as God has shown us we need to entirely rethink the direction humanity is heading towards. Baha'u'llah came to offer a new direction of unity and peace, at a time when humanity as a whole was heading towards mass destruction and gross Materialism and that Message was embraced by the Leaven, implanted to permeate the whole, it is all up to each person CG.

What else can be said? Why is it so hard for us to submit to God. God only wants our heart, for us to become trustworthy and truthful and embrace the unity of the entire human race. God does not want this world and its treasures, we are told we can have them all.

Regards Tony

 

[nPeace]

I like learning about the different religions that people in different times and places have invented.

That's good. I have a book, which can help you with that.

And some people in some religions are happy and aren't obeying the teachings of their religion if they don't go out and tell everybody else in the world about it... Which usually means that they have to tell those other people how wrong and false their beliefs are.

Most religions don't require their members to "go out and tell everybody else in the world about it"
Having the pews full is what usually matters, since the baskets are heavier.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why not be happy with Sage Uddalaka Aruni and his stories? Who says Tony, or anyone needs them?

That is what evidence points to. That is the best guess - not anyone creating the universe in six days and resting on the seventh (I would not go into contradictions in that scheme. They are well-known.)

I see we all need to understand these past examples and their stories.

I see the key to understanding these stories, is not to pursue literal interpretations.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

What prophecies did he make, that came true?
I heard from a former Hindu that Hindu writings do not contain any prophecies.
Without that ability, there is nothing about him that makes him important..

I am an atheist. For me, prophecies or prophets are fakes or psychologically challenged. At best a person can give his guess, like "Will we ever colonize Mars?".
Hindu sages and philosophers never gave prophecies. If what one says stands the test of time, then he is considered wise.
For example, the scheme of creation of universe or appearance of humans in Abrahamic religions has not stood the test of time.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why not be happy with Sage Uddalaka Aruni and his stories? Who says Tony, or anyone needs them?

Baha'is do need, and they do use, stories from other religions to tie in their religion. In their concept of progressive revelation, all the major religions were revealed by a manifestation from God. Anything that helps connect all the religions together for them is very important and useable. The problem then is... What do Baha'is do with things that make some religions stand apart and alone from the others and even make the other religions false?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yet the world still does not listen CG. Why are all Baha'is implementing those teachings in their lives?

It is believers such as Badi that created this world anew, made it possible, by that example, to enable other people to again choose the path to God.

That is how the Spirit works CG, it is a choice to carry the cross of Christ, and their choices have effect.

These stories are not just words on paper CG, they are Spirit and Life, so when Christ said in Mathew 16:24 "..... If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me", those words then make a new creation. From the rime they are uttered, it gave everyone a choice to embrace the Spirit of Christ and die to one's own desires.

This is why it is a path not many take, it takes amazing souls to walk the path of martyrdom, to give up their self, those hero's are the leaven of the Message of God

Mathew 13:33 "Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened".

Do you see that the sacrifice of Badi is reflected in that parable? The early believers, who gave their all, are the leaven that will eventually permeate the whole of humanity and enable it to rise from our ways.

This is how the Spirit works, it changes one soul at a time. Everything we do contributes to the whole, we are all connected by the same human spirit and as each human soul embraces the Holy Spirit, the elixir runs through to the majority.

There is a reason Abdul'baha said to replace evil and impure thoughts with heavenly and pure thoughts, as our minds are connected. The more people that choose violence, the more the whole is drawn towards violence.

This is why Materialism permeates our way of life, thus is why to choose a new Faith is a new creation, as God has shown us we need to entirely rethink the direction humanity is heading towards. Baha'u'llah came to offer a new direction of unity and peace, at a time when humanity as a whole was heading towards mass destruction and gross Materialism and that Message was embraced by the Leaven, implanted to permeate the whole, it is all up to each person CG.

What else can be said? Why is it so hard for us to submit to God. God only wants our heart, for us to become trustworthy and truthful and embrace the unity of the entire human race. God does not want this world and its treasures, we are told we can have them all.

Regards Tony

Cherry-picking a few verses in the NT or the Bible doesn't mean much to me, especially when so much of the Bible and NT is ignored.

But what does it mean to "pick up your cross and follow me"? Jesus hadn't picked up the cross and gotten himself crucified yet. Now "dying" to oneself and one's desires is pretty common to lots of religions. But to go on a suicide mission? What exactly did that prove? Like I said, lots of people went off to spread the "truth" of their religion and were killed. Problem is... Baha'is tell those beliefs are false. One of the main one's being that Jesus is God. So, what does that show us about the person that went out and spread that message and got killed for it? To me, it shows that people act as if they know the Truth, and they convince others of that truth, and then tell them that God wants them to go proclaim that truth to others. But it's not really The Truth. So what did the person die for?

Then... how many Baha'is or people in any religion willing to die for their beliefs? Do they really, really think it is the absolute truth? And again, some of those people are going to be wrong about what is The Truth. Since none of the other religions agree completely with your, the Baha'i, truth. Yet, they've convinced themselves. How and why? And strange that they think you're wrong and you believe they are wrong and are blind to the real truth. And that's why the more real proof and evidence is needed by some before they're going to say, "Yes, God is real" and that Jesus or Baha'u'llah, or whoever else, is really a messenger from that God. If all we're going to go by is some religious writings and have faith that it is true, then we're always going to have contradictory religions and religious zealots claiming their beliefs are the ones that are correct and from God.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see we all need to understand these past examples and their stories.

I see the key to understanding these stories, is not to pursue literal interpretations.

Regards Tony

So, does that go for stories about Baha'u'llah too? I get the feeling you believe those literally. Naturally, stories from ancient religions must be what? Symbolic? No, Baha'is pick and choose. They believe in the gospel stories when they say Jesus was crucified, but the next chapter where it says the tomb was empty and the Jesus had risen, those are symbolic? Again, if not true, then why not just a fabricated hoax? Why believe all four gospel writers told the same symbolic story? Oh, and also, why believe the virgin birth is not symbolic? The two gospel writers were not there to witness it. So, where did they get their information? The resurrection, however, was supposedly witnessed by hundreds of people including the apostles.

But I know, your religion says it was symbolic. And that's all the proof you need.

 

[CG Didymus]

the scheme of creation of universe or appearance of humans in Abrahamic religions has not stood the test of time.

And why does it have to be believed as being literally true? Only for those that need the whole Bible the whole NT to be the infallible, inerrant, literal word of God. For them, if part of it is proven false, all of it is called into question. But that means, for them, that they have to call everything that opposes a literal belief in the Bible as questionable... including observable things that scientists have learned.