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Does it matter what we believe if we don’t love one another ?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
. I think they are hooked on Bahaullah's word, which is not God's...

I offer to you what Baha'u'llah said to the Shah of Persia.

"O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me. Can any one speak forth of his own accord that for which all men, both high and low, will protest against him? Nay, by Him Who taught the Pen the eternal mysteries, save him whom the grace of the Almighty, the All-Powerful, hath strengthened....."

Regards Tony
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You don't seem skeptical about all those 'sorts of things' you believe. You think believing in self assumed "morality" is superior. That's sad, P.

While I find it sad that people get their morality by trying to discern the desires of a supernatural father figure using the writings of a superstitious, pre-scientific society.

I'd much rather people base their morality on human well-being and fulfillment.

And yes, I *am* skeptical of my beliefs. I try to always question them and the assumptions that support them. I am always trying to find ways that they could be wrong and how to test them in yet another way.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
While I find it sad that people get their morality by trying to discern the desires of a supernatural father figure using the writings of a superstitious, pre-scientific society.

I'd much rather people base their morality on human well-being and fulfillment.

And yes, I *am* skeptical of my beliefs. I try to always question them and the assumptions that support them. I am always trying to find ways that they could be wrong and how to test them in yet another way.

Well, now we play meta. To test the ability to test. As a skeptic I hit that some beliefs I can test, I don't get right or wrong. I get unknown. But that is just me.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I think what it comes down to, is what all those opposed to truth are doing - choosing a path of one's own, and formulating beliefs and traditions to make it appear acceptable.

A person may argue that this is the case with all religion, but that doesn't erase the truth - the Bible outlines it clearly.
All the other "holy" books, and "prophets", are just counterfeits... which are all scheduled to go up in smoke. Individual beliefs, as well.

According to the path you chose to follow.

freedom means being able to choose the path that seems right to you.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
One only has to glance at the wars, moral degradation, domestic violence, rapes, suicides, alcoholism, child sexual abuse, poverty, the disunity between nations and religions, terrorism, gun violence - today 14 children were shot dead in Texas. And there’s a whole lot more that indicates society is irreligious by nature no matter how many churches are full.

And while we have more powerful weapons now, the basic violence of society has always been around.

If anything, you are *much* less likely to die from personal violence (one on one, as opposed to war) now than at any time in history. It is debatable whether the likelihood of dying from war has changed much, but it hasn't gone up. Plus, until recently, disease was a major cause of death. Even having a toothache could be a death sentence before antibiotics.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I offer to you what Baha'u'llah said to the Shah of Persia.
"O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, .. hath strengthened....."
".. but now I am a manifestation of Allah."
Couch messenger!
No doubt, when Bahaollah left with the help of enemies of Iran; the British, the Russian and the Turkish authorities; the Shah must have heaved a sigh of relief.

@nPeace, did you understand what Bahaollah was saying? I can hardly ever.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No doubt, when Bahaollah left with the help of enemies of Iran; the British, the Russian and the Turkish authorities; the Shah must have heaved a sigh of relief.

I see you are unaware of the absolute corruption and brutality of 1800 Iran.

Badi, a young man who gave his life to carry the Message of Peace to the Shah from Baha'u'llah, knows of that brutality.

Badi, Áqá Buzurg

Here is his picture before his martyrdom. Such a sin to carry a message of peace.

francis_badi.jpg

I can assure you there was no sigh of relief for the Shah and his life ended as he ruled, and how he treated the Bab.

Baha'u'llah was always fair and just with the Shah, especially after the assassination attempt by a couple of wayward Babi. Which started a bloodbath of murder and persecution against innocent people, to which Bahá'u'lláh was caught up in.

Regards Tony
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Badi, a young man who gave his life to carry the Message of Peace to the Shah from Baha'u'llah, knows of that brutality.
Baha'u'llah was always fair and just with the Shah, ..
That is what has happened to all those people who go beyond their limits. Bahaollah went against the Shia, Sunni and Christian beliefs by declaring himself as a messenger and the mirror image of Allah. Bahaollah was just one of the many in Abrahamic religions who claim God's authority without any proof. Who instigated Badi to go on such a fool's errand?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is what has happened to all those people who go beyond their limits. Bahaollah went against the Shia, Sunni and Christian beliefs by declaring himself as a messenger and the mirror image of Allah. Bahaollah was just one of the many in Abrahamic religions who claim God's authority without any proof. Who instigated Badi to go on such a fool's errand?

The Shah went beyond the limits and suffered the fate Baha'u'llah had foretold. As did the successors after the Shah until the Ottoman Dynasty met its foretold fate. It was the fall of that dynasty that released Abdul'baha.

I Say Ya Baha'ul Abha to Badi. His memory is a legend that will never be forgotten, and will be told through the future.

Regards Tony
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
That is your imagination and indoctrination that you have received. There is no ruler and we are no body's servants.
I think you are the one with the imagination, and your own indoctrination. We all are ruled by someone or something.
Either we are ruled by the authority of light, or the authority of darkness, and whether we like it or not, we are servants to one, or the other... as well as something or the other.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Persia in the 1800's exactly portrayed what those passages offered.

Regards Tony
Well that certainly tells me your view Tony.
Let me see if I can interpret it correctly... The Persians think the son of man - Bahaullah - will destroy people - including infants, just as it occurred in Noah's day. Is that correct?
What about you... Is that your view?
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
I offer to you what Baha'u'llah said to the Shah of Persia.

"O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me. Can any one speak forth of his own accord that for which all men, both high and low, will protest against him? Nay, by Him Who taught the Pen the eternal mysteries, save him whom the grace of the Almighty, the All-Powerful, hath strengthened....."

Regards Tony
Just as I said. Bahais promote Bahaullah's word, which is not God's word.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
While I find it sad that people get their morality by trying to discern the desires of a supernatural father figure using the writings of a superstitious, pre-scientific society.
At least those people are more sensible, from what I can see, because they don't ignore the sad consequences of people in modern times who try to follow 'their own' ideas, which change like the shifting wind.

Capital punishment. Yes. No. Wait. Yes. Uh... No.
Corporal punishment. Yes. No. Wait. Yes. Uh... No.
....
They don't seem to know what works.

Also, what does science have to do with morality? Nothing.

I'd much rather people base their morality on human well-being and fulfillment.
"human well-being and fulfillment." ...and what is that may I ask?
Ripping the life of a developing human from its protective life support, piece by piece?
Allowing freedom to use harmful substances, known to be dangerous to one's health... and others?
...

"human well-being and fulfillment" can be anything that makes one happy, even if another suffers, or dies.
Isn't that so.

And yes, I *am* skeptical of my beliefs. I try to always question them and the assumptions that support them. I am always trying to find ways that they could be wrong and how to test them in yet another way.
Sounds good. Does it work in practice.
So far, I don't see any measuring line that is unchanging and standard, for which an Atheist can 'test' 'their morality'.
I have no idea what that would look like. Except... their own view winning out against a more practical suggestion.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
".. but now I am a manifestation of Allah."
Couch messenger!
No doubt, when Bahaollah left with the help of enemies of Iran; the British, the Russian and the Turkish authorities; the Shah must have heaved a sigh of relief.

@nPeace, did you understand what Bahaollah was saying? I can hardly ever.
I hardly read more than a dozen words of what Bahais preach.
I listen to their views, and answers to questions, but the preaching to promote Bahaullah as the Messiah and messenger of God, doesn't catch my attention.

Did you ask the Bahai to explain what Bahaullah is saying? If they can't, that would mean, the don't understand, but I would think they posted it because they understand.

I don't know if Bahais interpret Bahaullah's words. It would be interesting to know, since I was told by a Bahai, that everything needs interpreting.
So try asking them to interpret for you, what Bahaullah is saying. That might be useful.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well that certainly tells me your view Tony.
Let me see if I can interpret it correctly... The Persians think the son of man - Bahaullah - will destroy people - including infants, just as it occurred in Noah's day. Is that correct?
What about you... Is that your view?

When man forgets the Love of God, that is when the flood of self imposed retribution caused by the neglect of God's guidance, again visits us.

In this age the entire world is caught up in the consequences of that neglect. The following words of Bahá’u’lláh are indeed significant as we pause to reflect upon the present state of a strangely disordered world:

“How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society? The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 32-33

It is still raining, the Arc of salvation of embracing the Councels of the Pen of the Most High, is still yet to sail.

Regards Tony
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
When man forgets the Love of God, that is when the flood of self imposed retribution caused by the neglect of God's guidance, again visits us.

In this age the entire world is caught up in the consequences of that neglect. The following words of Bahá’u’lláh are indeed significant as we pause to reflect upon the present state of a strangely disordered world:

“How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society? The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 32-33

It is still raining, the Arc of salvation of embracing the Councels of the Pen of the Most High, is still yet to sail.

Regards Tony
The thing about that Tony, is that the 'story' did not say some calamity occurred due to the people's waywardness.
It says God brought the flood upon the people, in order to remove the wayward. Jesus was referring to the same account. He didn't make up his own.

Love requires discipline, correction, and justice. So while it is the case most people don't like those things, they are part of the package of true love
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Which dynasty has lived for ever? Even Bahaollah's dynasty lasted till Shoghi. Badi or Abudl Baha are important only for the Bahais.

This is a 500,000 year dispensation Aupmanyav. The next Messengers come in the Light of the Message of Baha’u’llah.

Imagine Badi gave his life so that Message could be proclaimed. The stories will be told by trillions in the future, their sacrifices will be remembered.

Baha'u'llah created Badi to perform that task of delivering that Message to the Shah. His story is very moving.

Regards Tony
 
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