Does God forgive soldiers?

[RitalinO.D.]

i just see it as moving goal posts...and justification for war. thou shall not kill means that, especially to any normal thinking person.

You are assuming a "normal" person is going to take a biblical scripture into consideration. Or you are only considered "normal" if you have the opinion that all killing is unjustified, no matter the context.

Everyone has their opinion on the subject, and it's something that will be debated till the end of time. For example, I feel there are times where killing can be justified, but that is only that, my opinion. I'm also of the opinion that if someone commits a murder (premeditated, unjustfiable), they should be duly punished with the like. Why make tax payers foot the bill to house a convicted murderer for life. (I realize I may have opened a whole nother can of worms here).

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Thats the wrong way of looking at it. It is not God that reserves forgiveness, it is the soldier who refuses to accept it.

You do realize that the military is full of religious people right?

 

[Kriya Yogi]

You do realize that the military is full of religious people right?

I'm one of them. I'm not really religious though, I would say spiritually inspired.

 

[Sikh]

You do realize that the military is full of religious people right?

What does that mean? Because they are religious, so...?

Sorry if I'm missing something, could you elaborate?

 

[waitasec]

Hitler never killed anyone

are you saying hitler is innocent of killing anyone given the authority he had?

quotes from mein kampf

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

In Mein Kampf, Hitler listed Martin Luther as one of the greatest reformers. And similar to Luther in the 1500s, Hitler spoke against the Jews. The Nazi plan to create a German Reich Church laid its bases on the "Spirit of Dr. Martin Luther." The first physical violence against the Jews came on November 9-10 on Kristallnacht (Crystal Night) where the Nazis killed Jews, shattered glass windows, and destroyed hundreds of synagogues, just as Luther had proposed. In Daniel Johah Goldhagen's book, Hitler's Willing Executioners, he writes:

"One leading Protestant churchman, Bishop Martin Sasse published a compendium of Martin Luther's antisemitic vitriol shortly after Kristallnacht's orgy of anti-Jewish violence. In the foreword to the volume, he applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day: 'On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.' The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words 'of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.'

Martin Luther's dirty little book

The Final Solution (German: Die Endlösung) was Nazi Germany's plan and execution of the systematic genocide of European Jews during World War II, resulting in the most deadly phase of the Holocaust. Heinrich Himmler was the chief architect of the plan, and the German Nazi leader Adolf Hitler termed it "the final solution of the Jewish question"

Final Solution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tathagata]

How do you know he never actually killed anyone? Were you there? Is there any sort of proof he never committed a murder with his own hands? If there is, I'd like to see it.

Wow, you have been completely brainwashed, not to mention seriously lacking in logical ability.

You are committing a Demanding Negative Proof Fallacy. It's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. How could you possibly have evidence that someone DIDN'T do something?

Anyways, yes, Hitler did kill somebody. He killed himself with a cyanide pill and assisted his wife in suicide. He was not directly responsible for any of the Nazi crimes.

He was responsible for the killing of 6 million Jews, and this is going to be dumbed down to "he never killed anyone"? Seems to trivialize his actions don't you think?

His actions? He didnt do anything. Hitler was just a guy who talked a lot. Last I checked, we have freedom of speech.

Anyways, if you claim he killed 6 million people, please provide the evidence for this extraordinary claim!

What's next, you think Charles Manson actually killed people too?

How anyone can say "Hitler was innocent" is beyond my comprehension and frankly makes me think such a person is seriously delusional.

Or perhaps you've been brainwashed and forgot the principles of personal responsibility.

Like i said, if your friend told you to jump off a bridge and you did, you'd probably blame him based on your reasoning.

 

[Valjean]

How do you know he never actually killed anyone? Were you there? Is there any sort of proof he never committed a murder with his own hands? If there is, I'd like to see it.

He was responsible for the killing of 6 million Jews, and this is going to be dumbed down to "he never killed anyone"? Seems to trivialize his actions don't you think?

How anyone can say "Hitler was innocent" is beyond my comprehension and frankly makes me think such a person is seriously delusional.

There is no documentation of his ever, personally, having killed anyone, either in his service in The Great War or during WWII. Don't get me wrong. I don't hold him innocent. But much of his infamy rests on his status as Head of State during this fearful, authoritarian period.
There were -- and are-- plenty of people just like him. His is a common psychological type.

Not a monster. Just an ambitious authoritarian personality in the right place at the right time.

 

[waitasec]

You are assuming a "normal" person is going to take a biblical scripture into consideration.

no. no normal thinking person would

Or you are only considered "normal" if you have the opinion that all killing is unjustified, no matter the context.

i do not subscribe to the bible..so it's not my dilemma...
if someone harmed my son...i might just kill that person...no problem.

Everyone has their opinion on the subject, and it's something that will be debated till the end of time. For example, I feel there are times where killing can be justified, but that is only that, my opinion. I'm also of the opinion that if someone commits a murder (premeditated, unjustfiable), they should be duly punished with the like.

i agree to a certain extent...however i only hope that one day "holy wars" will be the thing of the past...

Why make tax payers foot the bill to house a convicted murderer for life. (I realize I may have opened a whole nother can of worms here).

yes you did...
the problem i have with this is if you look at the way the rest of the developed world approaches capital punishment is that they simply don't do it...only the US and 3rd world countries do it...and i believe it has to do with the bronze age ideal this country holds onto...
another reason i am not for capital punishment is that an innocent person maybe subjected to it..if it were a 100% assruance that the person convicted is guilty...and from what i understand it cost more to put someone on death row than it does to keep them in jail...

 

[Luminous]

Must be interesting living in such a one-dimensional world. You should try the real world sometime, where everything isn't so cut and dry.

ummm o.k :areyoucra. I'll take that into consideration. Although its nice to know you were able to completely avoid engaging the subject at all.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Wow, you have been completely brainwashed, not to mention seriously lacking in logical ability.

You are committing a Demanding Negative Proof Fallacy. It's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. How could you possibly have evidence that someone DIDN'T do something?

Anyways, yes, Hitler did kill somebody. He killed himself with a cyanide pill and assisted his wife in suicide. He was not directly responsible for any of the Nazi crimes.

Slow down there tiger. Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions. I was merely playing the opposite hand to the statement "Hitler never killed anyone" which is obviously impossible to prove. Not having any record of it, does not make it true.
I am a firm believer that one is innocent until proven guilty. What I stated was in no way a contradiction to that. I merely said "How do you know"?

And BTW, to say he's not directly responsible for the Nazi crimes is a fallacy in itself. He was fully aware of what was happening to the Jews, and there is documentation to prove it. To say he never put a gun to a Jews head and pulled the trigger is completely different than saying he wasn't directly responsible.

The Entire world holds George W. Bush responsible for the Iraq war, yet did he actually go to Iraq and shoot insurgents? No. Does it make him any less responsible? No.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

ummm o.k :areyoucra. I'll take that into consideration. Although its nice to know you were able to completely avoid engaging the subject at all.

I suppose it might have been a tad harsh but what was there to engage in? You made the blanket statement that anyone who tries to justify any sort of killing is evil. That's a pretty bold statement. I retorted with a bold statement of my own. I apologize if it didn't sit well with you. Just the way it is I suppose.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

What does that mean? Because they are religious, so...?

Sorry if I'm missing something, could you elaborate?

You made the statement that Soldiers refuse forgiveness from God. Unless You had some underlying meaning to your statement that I missed.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

no. no normal thinking person would

Then we agree

i do not subscribe to the bible..so it's not my dilemma...
if someone harmed my son...i might just kill that person...no problem.

Also agree

i agree to a certain extent...however i only hope that one day "holy wars" will be the thing of the past...

That would be nice for sure, although I'm a pessimist at times and don't see this happening

yes you did...
the problem i have with this is if you look at the way the rest of the developed world approaches capital punishment is that they simply don't do it...only the US and 3rd world countries do it...and i believe it has to do with the bronze age ideal this country holds onto...
another reason i am not for capital punishment is that an innocent person maybe subjected to it..if it were a 100% assruance that the person convicted is guilty...and from what i understand it cost more to put someone on death row than it does to keep them in jail...

The only time I would condone the DP is when the evidence is just overwhelming. Such as, several eye witnesses who saw said person commit the murder, video, pictures, etc. This of course can be quite subjective. Although today with the use of DNA forensics, wrongful imprisonments are happening less and less.

 

[waitasec]

That would be nice for sure, although I'm a pessimist at times and don't see this happening

i reluctantly agree...at least for near future

The only time I would condone the DP is when the evidence is just overwhelming. Such as, several eye witnesses who saw said person commit the murder, video, pictures, etc. This of course can be quite subjective. Although today with the use of DNA forensics, wrongful imprisonments are happening less and less.

thank goodness...

 

[Sikh]

You made the statement that Soldiers refuse forgiveness from God. Unless You had some underlying meaning to your statement that I missed.

Ok lets start again, The opening asks if God forgives the actions of soldiers killing people? Implying that killing is ok as long as it is sanctioned. My point was that, at least according to the bible, we are sinful creatures already without action who require forgiveness from God--meaning that it is through forgiveness that salvation is attained not solely by a hypothetical following of sanctioned rules. I was pointing out that it would be the soldier who believing that he has followed all the laws rejects asking for forgiveness and so dooms himself.

Is it wrong to kill people according to the bible, yes. But there is eternal Forgiveness if one is sincere. Why should killing to save others be any less a sin? And why should the heart of someone who commits such a sin not be understood by God?

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Ok lets start again, The opening asks if God forgives the actions of soldiers killing people? Implying that killing is ok as long as it is sanctioned. My point was that, at least according to the bible, we are sinful creatures already without action who require forgiveness from God--meaning that it is through forgiveness that salvation is attained not solely by a hypothetical following of sanctioned rules. I was pointing out that it would be the soldier who believing that he has followed all the laws rejects asking for forgiveness and so dooms himself.

Is it wrong to kill people according to the bible, yes. But there is eternal Forgiveness if one is sincere. Why should killing to save others be any less a sin? And why should the heart of someone who commits such a sin not be understood by God?

I understand now. Thanks for the clarification.

But you don't think an all Loving, all powerful God would not understand if one of his children was not given a choice to kill? Say, in the defense of ones family in their home?

 

[Sikh]

I understand now. Thanks for the clarification.

But you don't think an all Loving, all powerful God would not understand if one of his children was not given a choice to kill? Say, in the defense of ones family in their home?

Of course he would understand, but it would still be a sin. Why? Because the fear of death and problems of life are the result of getting kicked out of Eden by disobeying God.

When one goes to Heaven, is it not a return to Eden? Why are we away from Eden? Because we sinned--that sin still needs a sincere plea to God for forgiveness.

 

[McBell]

No I don't, but they have no reasoning like humans have.

I bet that mice would completely disagree with you.

 

[McBell]

Of course he would understand, but it would still be a sin.

And I have absolutely no use for such a hypocritical deity.

 

[Sikh]

And I have absolutely no use for such a hypocritical deity.

I'm Sikh, not Christian--I was playing devils advocate from the christian bibles point of view. Not all concepts of God are in the Christian ideal, broaden your search.