Does God Exist?

[Dan4reason]

First of all: God do exist. You determine that from logic and reason like everything else. I also believed that Aedam, Aebraham, Mashe, Nebuchadnezzar, Julius Caesar, and George Washington existed also; although the only evidence I have are history books. Atheists also believe in these men even though they cannot scientifically proved that they have ever existed. Now why is that?

There is more to proof than scientific research so I do believe in the existence of these historical figures because their existence best explains the information about them.

What you are claiming is that if we believe in the existence of other people without seeing them then we should believe in all sorts of mythological hocus pocus even though we have not seen them. I will argue that just because I believe in your existence without ever seeing you does not mean I should believe in God, fairies, Santa Clause, Thor, Zeus, or garden knomes. I argue that claiming that you exist is a far less extrordinary than asserting that fairies exist.

This will leave you to only two choices:
I) I believe the evidence;
2) I don't believe the evidence

You have no evidence.

 

[Dan4reason]

No evidence of supernatural aid? Perhaps. But they claim that it was due to supernatural aid and well, given the number of correct predictions they seem to make and considering the amount of time they've been able to do it, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe such a claim.

They claim that it was due to supernatural aid, but that does not mean it was. For heaven sake many people in indonesia think that volcanoes go off because the Gods are angry, but that does not make it true.

One thing that helped the Jews survive was that they were spread out so if they were killed in one kingdom many still survived. Another is that many Jews did not believe with mixing with non-Christians. This kept their lines alive. Another factor was that the Jews were able to adapt in different situations, for example when they were barred from owning land, they became good with money. When they were attacked in Palestine, they created strong defenses. I admire the Jewish people for their intelligence, strength, morality, and adaptibility and I truely think that it was they who helped them survive.

Especially when the negative consequences for being wrong are non-existent. Unless of course you think it is a negative consequence to have people motivated towards a goal of peace and operate under a system of laws that produces lower statistics of alcoholism, depression, divorce, substance abuse, sexual violence, and domestic violence in societies that abide by it.

Morality does not have to be based on mythology and faith, it can also be based on reason. The fact that many religious people have a strong moral basis does not mean that their beliefs are true. You are assuming that absolute morality does exist, and that it can only exist with faith. When people deny facts and embrace faith they risk ignoring reason, doing harm, and falling behind.

For example, muslim nations are much more serious about their religion than Christians or Jews in general and we see that they hold many of the same ideas as their ancestors in the Arabian desert thousands of years ago. Because they have faith in the ideas of their ancestors, they will be more resistant to change their ways through reason if there is evidence for something better. This is why many muslim nations have fallen behind embracing sexism, slavery, violence and bigotry. These are things that the western world has made progress with.

 

[Dan4reason]

"good with money" in a nut shell-

“The First Council of Nicaea, in 325, forbade clergy from engaging in usury (canon 17). At the time, usury was interest of any kind, and the canon merely forbade the clergy to lend money on interest above 1 percent per month. Later ecumenical councils applied this regulation to the laity”


“As the Jews were ostracized from most professions by local rulers, the church and the guilds, they were pushed into marginal occupations considered socially inferior, such as tax and rent collecting and moneylending. Natural tensions between creditors and debtors were added to social, political, religious, and economic strains”

Usury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Denied access to any other profession...the Jews became "good with money" because they "were pushed into marginal occupations considered socially inferior" and then (historicaly) persecuted, hounded and looked down upon for being "good with money".

Go figure.

Thats nice, but I am wondering where your horse race analogy was going. You have me curious.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Shabáth Shalume,

There is more to proof than scientific research so I do believe in the existence of these historical figures because their existence best explains the information about them.

Well, if not scientific research; then the question then becomes: What proof do you have on the existence of great historical figures like Aedam, Aebraham, Noach, Mashe, Julius Caesar, George Washington? So far it sounds like you just simply believe historical documents.

What you are claiming is that if we believe in the existence of other people without seeing them then we should believe in all sorts of mythological hocus pocus even though we have not seen them. I will argue that just because I believe in your existence without ever seeing you does not mean I should believe in God, fairies, Santa Clause, Thor, Zeus, or garden knomes. I argue that claiming that you exist is a far less extrordinary than asserting that fairies exist.

Not at all; you assume that. My focus is not whether someone exist but on what scientific tools or proof do you use in proving their existence. There is a difference between mythology and theology. What is with this myopic insistence that all super-beings are solely based mythology? You know, there are liars on both sides of believers and non-believers. You can't just pigeon-hole the true diety with mythological creatures without proof; or do you just believe it.

You have no evidence.

And neither do you on establishing a fact of non-existence; and you still have not answer my original question on your method of proof in historical men. :candle:

 

[TheKnight]

They claim that it was due to supernatural aid, but that does not mean it was. For heaven sake many people in indonesia think that volcanoes go off because the Gods are angry, but that does not make it true.

Do said people have a record of prediction making like that of the Jews?

One thing that helped the Jews survive was that they were spread out so if they were killed in one kingdom many still survived. Another is that many Jews did not believe with mixing with non-Christians. This kept their lines alive. Another factor was that the Jews were able to adapt in different situations, for example when they were barred from owning land, they became good with money. When they were attacked in Palestine, they created strong defenses. I admire the Jewish people for their intelligence, strength, morality, and adaptibility and I truely think that it was they who helped them survive.

I'm sure all those traits were key, but I don't think those alone can account for the survival of the Jews.

Besides, if you think they're so intelligent when it comes to survival, and they claim their survival is because of God, then don't you think it is at least reasonable to believe in their picture?

Morality does not have to be based on mythology and faith, it can also be based on reason. The fact that many religious people have a strong moral basis does not mean that their beliefs are true. You are assuming that absolute morality does exist, and that it can only exist with faith. When people deny facts and embrace faith they risk ignoring reason, doing harm, and falling behind.

1. I don't believe in absolute anything except for God.
2.I wasn't talking about morality. I was talking about the affects of a Jewish worldview on a society.

My argument had nothing to do with morality. It was an argument that there aren't negative consequences from believing in Judaism. If there are no negative consequences and there are benefits, then is there a reason not to believe in it? Especially if I like what it teaches as opposed to other religions?

 

[Archer]

LovePeaceHappiness and I were having a debate about the atonement and he tried to support this by using arguments that assume that God already exists. When I confronted him with this he suggested I make a new thread about this topic, so here it is. The purpose of this thread is to use logic and reason to try to determine whether God exists, or at least find out whether it is likely that God exists.

I am defining God to be the Judeo-Christian God. There is no reason to say God exists any more than there is to say that unicorns exist because there is no evidence of God. This is a very common argument and is very persuasive.

Until someone can tell me exactly how the universe started, what dark matter is, what dark energy is, exactly how a single cell decided to add to itself with mutated attached cells to form a multi-celled organism that then could keep adding to itself until it formed a fish, how a fish became a reptile, how a reptile became a bird and then a mammal, how a mammal went back to the ocean and became a whale and ...................... I will have to say God does exist. It just seems the most logical to me. Also when this nagging felling inside me stops I might be able not to believe.

 

[outhouse]

Until someone can tell me exactly how the universe started, what dark matter is, what dark energy is, exactly how a single cell decided to add to itself with mutated attached cells to form a multi-celled organism that then could keep adding to itself until it formed a fish, how a fish became a reptile, how a reptile became a bird and then a mammal, how a mammal went back to the ocean and became a whale and ...................... I will have to say God does exist. It just seems the most logical to me. Also when this nagging felling inside me stops I might be able not to believe.

So what your really saying is you will believe superstition because science doesnt have all the answers.

Well we know religion has been wrong since it started and misinformation was written in almost every book compiled in the bible. They were wrong about the flat earth and the flood and the fact the sun doesnt revolve around the earth, and the earth wasnt made in 6 days and evolution is FACT ...... so with all the lies about history your going follow down the rabbit hole deeper???????

Most jews will tell you not to read the bible literally and that it was never ment to be a science or history book.

 

[Archer]

So what your really saying is you will believe superstition because science doesnt have all the answers.

Well we know religion has been wrong since it started and misinformation was written in almost every book compiled in the bible. They were wrong about the flat earth and the flood and the fact the sun doesnt revolve around the earth, and the earth wasnt made in 6 days and evolution is FACT ...... so with all the lies about history your going follow down the rabbit hole deeper???????

Most jews will tell you not to read the bible literally and that it was never ment to be a science or history book.

Has any man seen evolution? Is there a definite link in remains with no missing links? Hey modern man and neanderthals did interbreed.

Oh the bible does make mention of man breeding with others outside of Adams line.

 

[outhouse]

Has any man seen evolution?

Yes, it is fact and has been observed.

Oh the bible does make mention of man breeding with others outside of Adams line

im sorry but neaderthals died out before the many unknown jewish authors wrote the OT.


Are you going to question evolution?? really? this arguement will close quickly with disappointment if you want go there.

what does your book say about homo ergaster?, or homo erectus?, or homo hiedelburgensis? or homo neadrerthalensis? or homo habilis?, or homo rudolfensis? HHmmm????? whats its say,???

Your not going to start with young earth are you LOL

 

[fantome profane]

Until someone can tell me exactly how the universe started, what dark matter is, what dark energy is, exactly how a single cell decided to add to itself with mutated attached cells to form a multi-celled organism that then could keep adding to itself until it formed a fish, how a fish became a reptile, how a reptile became a bird and then a mammal, how a mammal went back to the ocean and became a whale and ...................... I will have to say God does exist. It just seems the most logical to me. Also when this nagging felling inside me stops I might be able not to believe.

Until someone can tell me exactly how the concept of “God” can actually provide an explanation for any of those things I will continue to regard this as nothing more than an argument from ignorance.

 

[Wombat]

Thats nice, but I am wondering where your horse race analogy was going. You have me curious.

There had been a reply (23#) to your last post and a couple of aditional questions posed-

"Ok...Next race...same story...all horses bar one (different horse) fall or fail to complete....race three same thing happens again.

Assuming the race meeting was allowed to go on (5-6 races) and the same 'all horses bar one" outcome occurred each time......how would you rate the probability?...What would your level of suspicion be?


One other supplemental question then I will lay my argument/cards on the table.

Would you please choose a (single) field of human endeavour (Art, Music, Military, Politics, Science, whatever) and then choose six 'Greats' in that field....six people who stand out as having made immense contribution and huge influence in their area of endeavour."

With your response...will attempt to satisfy your curiosity
(Holiday period is upon me...kids,food,music abound...hope you are also so encumbered ;-)

 

[Archer]

Yes, it is fact and has been observed.



im sorry but neaderthals died out before the many unknown jewish authors wrote the OT.


Are you going to question evolution?? really? this arguement will close quickly with disappointment if you want go there.

what does your book say about homo ergaster?, or homo erectus?, or homo hiedelburgensis? or homo neadrerthalensis? or homo habilis?, or homo rudolfensis? HHmmm????? whats its say,???

Your not going to start with young earth are you LOL

I never said nothing does change. Answer the questions I asked. I am not your conventional believer in God and I would accept evolution if the things I asked about could be answered. To not allow change and adaptation is limiting the power of God.

Until someone can tell me exactly how the concept of “God” can actually provide an explanation for any of those things I will continue to regard this as nothing more than an argument from ignorance.

Until I can see those same things 100% proven I will believe in God.

 

[Wombat]

Well we know religion has been wrong since it started .....

Nuh.....I don't know that...nor do billions of others-

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" Quran.

 

[PolyHedral]

im sorry but neaderthals died out before the many unknown jewish authors wrote the OT.

IIRC, Neanderthals died out about 25,000 years before Judaism even existed. It would be a most profound anachronism if the writers meant Neanderthals, rather than some other group of humans they had never encountered before.

Has any man seen evolution? Is there a definite link in remains with no missing links?

Yes. Bacteria have evolved to eat nylon, which is an entirely man-made substance. And there isn't an unbroken chain of descendants of a given organism, but asking for one is unreasonable. Fossils aren't guareenteed to form, and are actually quite rare, so the vast majority of creatures living will not leave any trace behind them.

 

[Dan4reason]

Well, if not scientific research; then the question then becomes: What proof do you have on the existence of great historical figures like Aedam, Aebraham, Noach, Mashe, Julius Caesar, George Washington? So far it sounds like you just simply believe historical documents.

I actually have never read the original documents talking about Julius Caesar. I have not even directly talked to the people who makes claims about his existence. I have simply read about him in textbook and watched documentaries about him on the history channel. This is not to say that I believe everything that comes on that show, and they also put on some controversial stuff that I don't believe.

I find that whenever ideas are presented by authoritative sources as absolutely true, and that they say that there is no controversy about the idea, this comes from multiple sources, and there is no visible resistance to the idea, I generally believe what they tell me about Caesar. They also show me images of statues of Caesar, some of his writings, and places surrounding his story. The fact that they have made a detailed story about him also indicates that they may have a lot of facts. Some of the info about him may not be 100% certain because there is error in everything, however, his general existence is the most certain thing about him.

I find that whenever smart people support an idea, provide some samples of evidence, claim that this idea is not controversial, and I see no one challenging it, that idea almost always ends up to be true when I get around to testing it. The existence of Canada was considered a fact and it was validated when I went there, free-fall acceleration being 9.80 m/s^2 was validated when I did physics experiments myself, the existence of Barrack Obama was validated when I saw him during a rally. However, I once considered the existence of Jesus to just be a fact until I saw some evidence questioning that and realized that there was some controversy.

This is what it means to trust something. We trust things because we do not have the time to test everything. Trust is when you believe something without full evidence because of authority, workability, and evidence. however, there are some provisions.
1. Past experience must have validated the source.
2. The trust is not 100% and can be broken.
3. The source must be authorative.
4. In many cases, if the source was wrong, there would be people speaking out, but there are not.

We do not see this sort of credibility when it comes to mythological claims. There is little authority to validate it, it has never been observed or proven to me, mythological claims have never been validated to me when tested, they conflict with each other, many have been disproved by science, and there are often logical problems with them.

Not at all; you assume that. My focus is not whether someone exist but on what scientific tools or proof do you use in proving their existence.

According to your thesis, you just believe something just because a book tells you. That is a Pandora's box to all sorts of insane myths.

There is a difference between mythology and theology. What is with this myopic insistence that all super-beings are solely based mythology? You know, there are liars on both sides of believers and non-believers.

You can't just pigeon-hole the true diety with mythological creatures without proof; or do you just believe it.

Mythology refers to unproven claims about Gods, spirits, ghosts, and the supernatural that have never been scientifically validates. Your claims fall under this definition.

And neither do you on establishing a fact of non-existence; and you still have not answer my original question on your method of proof in historical men. :candle:

I do not have to prove a negative. All I simply have to show is that you do not have enough evidence. However, I will try to prove a negative anyway just to have a stronger case. Before I do this, what is your religion or religious beliefs?

 

[outhouse]

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation),

im sorry nothing was created, and to not see the flaws and mistakes in the bible is just a lack of education, blatant ignorance.

One simple case Is Galilieo, he proved the sun did not revolved around the earth. the church punished him to house arrest where he died.

Basicaly they killed one of the most brilliant minds because it went against the translated word of the bible.

Most people know there was no world wide flood so dont act like billions are YEC, that would be a blatant lie about the bibles and its mistakes and the people who beleive imagination,,, in my opinion

 

[outhouse]

Oh the bible does make mention of man breeding with others outside of Adams line.

and what magical imaginitive kind of being would this be?

Is there a definite link in remains with no missing links?

please ask the question in englich this time, so that it can be answered.

Until someone can tell me exactly how the universe started

your asking science to explain to you 14.6 billion years ago in detail? and because they cant you will believe in my opinon a 3000 year old sheep herders campfire tale that has been proven wrong???


This is the same as teaching a college level class on reproduction AND TALKING ABOUT THE STORK THEORY

 

[Dan4reason]

There had been a reply (23#) to your last post and a couple of aditional questions posed-

"Ok...Next race...same story...all horses bar one (different horse) fall or fail to complete....race three same thing happens again.

Assuming the race meeting was allowed to go on (5-6 races) and the same 'all horses bar one" outcome occurred each time......how would you rate the probability?...What would your level of suspicion be?


One other supplemental question then I will lay my argument/cards on the table.

Would you please choose a (single) field of human endeavour (Art, Music, Military, Politics, Science, whatever) and then choose six 'Greats' in that field....six people who stand out as having made immense contribution and huge influence in their area of endeavour."

With your response...will attempt to satisfy your curiosity
(Holiday period is upon me...kids,food,music abound...hope you are also so encumbered ;-)

I already responded to that in post #30.

 

[Dan4reason]

Unless someone can tell me how thunder is created, how people fall in love, why the seasons change, and how people are wise I will believe in Zeus, Athena, Apollo, Cupid, and Venus. Its just the most logical thing for me.

Until someone can tell me exactly how the universe started,

Big Bang.

what dark matter is,

From Wikipedia:

In astronomy and cosmology, dark matter is matter that is inferred to exist from gravitational effects on visible matter and background radiation, but is undetectable by emitted or scattered electromagnetic radiation.[1] Its existence was hypothesized to account for discrepancies between measurements of the mass of galaxies, clusters of galaxies and the entire universe made through dynamical and general relativistic means, and measurements based on the mass of the visible "luminous" matter these objects contain: stars and the gas and dust of the interstellar and intergalactic medium.

exactly how a single cell decided to add to itself with mutated attached cells to form a multi-celled organism that then could keep adding to itself until it formed a fish, how a fish became a reptile, how a reptile became a bird and then a mammal, how a mammal went back to the ocean and became a whale and ...................... I will have to say God does exist.

Evolution through natural selection and mutations.

It just seems the most logical to me. Also when this nagging felling inside me stops I might be able not to believe.

Just because you see no evidence for other ideas does not mean your idea is true. The design argument if true does not support the existence of the Judeo-Christian God, but simply a designer. Can I infer that you are a deist now?

 

[Dan4reason]

Do said people have a record of prediction making like that of the Jews?

Could you give this record of prediction in more detail?

I'm sure all those traits were key, but I don't think those alone can account for the survival of the Jews.

Why not?

Besides, if you think they're so intelligent when it comes to survival, and they claim their survival is because of God, then don't you think it is at least reasonable to believe in their picture?

Not all Jews adhere to Judaism. Actually the smartest thing I think many Jews did was cast off myth and embrace reason.

1. I don't believe in absolute anything except for God.
2.I wasn't talking about morality. I was talking about the affects of a Jewish worldview on a society.

My argument had nothing to do with morality. It was an argument that there aren't negative consequences from believing in Judaism. If there are no negative consequences and there are benefits, then is there a reason not to believe in it? Especially if I like what it teaches as opposed to other religions?

My mistake. I will respond to your real point.

I do not measure the validity of a belief by whether it makes me and other people happy. I measure the belief by the level of evidence it has to support its validity and truth. There is such a thing as a comfortable illusion.