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Do you really see all muslims as evil people?

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So LOH saying he ended rape made you bring up "sex with slaves"?
I do not see that as an accurate transcript of how the conversation went.

If you follow through the posts each one is within context of the post its replying to in my opinion.

1. can you please cite the historical source for "Muhammad has had many faithful followers historically that have alleged He had sex with his slave / allowed marital sex without consent."?

2, And tell me why you trust it.
Some referenced extracts from the Wikipedia article Rape in Islamic law - Wikipedia

'
Rape is considered a serious sexual crime in Islam, and can be defined in Islamic law as: "Forcible illegal sexual intercourse by a man with a woman who is not legally married to him, without her free will and consent".[8]

Islamic law, like the legal systems of classical antiquity and the ancient Near East, does not contain a true equivalent of the modern concept of rape, which is in turn based on the modern notions of individual autonomy and inviolability of the body, particularly the female body. In modern terms, rape is at its most basic level a violation of another person's sexual autonomy. In the communally and patriarchically oriented societies of Late Antiquity, a woman's sexuality was construed as something in control of her legal guardian or owner rather than in her individual control. Therefore, the category of coercive sexual violation was not clearly differentiated from other categories such as consensual violation of sexual norms (seduction).[9]'

'Classical Islamic law defined what today is commonly called "rape" as a coercive form of fornication or adultery (zināʾ).[10] This basic definition of rape as "coercive zināʾ" meant that all the normal legal principles that pertained to zināʾ – its definition, punishment, and establishment through evidence – were also applicable to rape; the prototypical act of zināʾ was defined as sexual intercourse between a man and a woman over whom the man has neither a conjugal nor an ownership right.[10]'

'
The majority of Islamic jurists do not recognize marital rape as rape,[6] but some modern interpretations of Islamic law prohibit marital rape in other ways.[14][6] According to a hadith, a master could marry off a female slave without her consent, but needed to obtain her consent if he wanted to marry her after setting her free.[15]

Hina Azam writes that the crime of marital rape doesn't arise in classical Islamic jurisprudence, but they did address issue of a husband injuring his wife sexually. For example, perineal tearing by the husband was criminalized and entitled the wife to monetary compensation.[16]

Kecia Ali states that the Hanafis allowed the husband to forcibly have sex with his wife if she didn't have a legitimate reason to refuse sex;[17][18] this is also indicated in the fiqh manual Al-Hidayah.[19] This particular Hanafi position was not prevalent in other schools of thought,[17] who neither authorized forced sex in marriage nor penalized it.[20] While medieval jurists classified rape under the crime of ightisab, no medieval jurist classified marital rape as such.[21]'

Seems to be fairly well referenced by academic sources.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I do not see that as an accurate transcript of how the conversation went.

If you follow through the posts each one is within context of the post its replying to in my opinion.


Some referenced extracts from the Wikipedia article Rape in Islamic law - Wikipedia

'
Rape is considered a serious sexual crime in Islam, and can be defined in Islamic law as: "Forcible illegal sexual intercourse by a man with a woman who is not legally married to him, without her free will and consent".[8]

Islamic law, like the legal systems of classical antiquity and the ancient Near East, does not contain a true equivalent of the modern concept of rape, which is in turn based on the modern notions of individual autonomy and inviolability of the body, particularly the female body. In modern terms, rape is at its most basic level a violation of another person's sexual autonomy. In the communally and patriarchically oriented societies of Late Antiquity, a woman's sexuality was construed as something in control of her legal guardian or owner rather than in her individual control. Therefore, the category of coercive sexual violation was not clearly differentiated from other categories such as consensual violation of sexual norms (seduction).[9]'

'Classical Islamic law defined what today is commonly called "rape" as a coercive form of fornication or adultery (zināʾ).[10] This basic definition of rape as "coercive zināʾ" meant that all the normal legal principles that pertained to zināʾ – its definition, punishment, and establishment through evidence – were also applicable to rape; the prototypical act of zināʾ was defined as sexual intercourse between a man and a woman over whom the man has neither a conjugal nor an ownership right.[10]'

'
The majority of Islamic jurists do not recognize marital rape as rape,[6] but some modern interpretations of Islamic law prohibit marital rape in other ways.[14][6] According to a hadith, a master could marry off a female slave without her consent, but needed to obtain her consent if he wanted to marry her after setting her free.[15]

Hina Azam writes that the crime of marital rape doesn't arise in classical Islamic jurisprudence, but they did address issue of a husband injuring his wife sexually. For example, perineal tearing by the husband was criminalized and entitled the wife to monetary compensation.[16]

Kecia Ali states that the Hanafis allowed the husband to forcibly have sex with his wife if she didn't have a legitimate reason to refuse sex;[17][18] this is also indicated in the fiqh manual Al-Hidayah.[19] This particular Hanafi position was not prevalent in other schools of thought,[17] who neither authorized forced sex in marriage nor penalized it.[20] While medieval jurists classified rape under the crime of ightisab, no medieval jurist classified marital rape as such.[21]'

Seems to be fairly well referenced by academic sources.

1. Your statement was "Muhammad has had many faithful followers historically that have alleged He had sex with his slave / allowed marital sex without consent."

2. Also you missed the "why do you trust it" part.
 
Last edited:

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1. Your statement was "Muhammad has had many faithful followers historically that have alleged He had sex with his slave / allowed marital sex without consent."

2. Also you missed the "why do you trust it" part.
For the part1 I may have misremembered something loosely based on an anti-Muslim website, but for part 2 "allowed marital sex without consent i think it is justified because the many scholars who did not forbid it presumably would have forbid it if they thought Muhammad did.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@firedragon I might discuss this with you even though it may be a bit controversial because it comes from an anti-Muslim site, so may not be true, but it refers to the following books claiming faithful Muslims said Muhammad had sex with his slave;

'
In the "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", mention is made of Mariyah. On page 151, it says



"He [the Lord of Alexandria] presented to the prophet Mariyah, her sister Sirin, a donkey and a mule which was white....The apostle of Allah liked Mariyah who was of white complexion and curly hair and pretty.... Then he cohabited with Mariyah as a handmaid and sent her to his property which he had acquired from Banu al-Nadir."



The note for the word "handmaid" says "Handmaids gained the status of wedded wives if they bore children. They were called "umm walad" and became free.





This story is also supported by Tabari's History, volume 39, page 194. Here is the quote: (my words are in ( ) parenthesis).



"He (Muhammad) used to visit her (Mariyam) there and ordered her to veil herself, [but] he had intercourse with her by virtue of her being his property."



The note (845) on this says, "That is, Mariyah was ordered to veil herself as did the Prophet's wives, but he did not marry her."'

'
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 5, #637:

Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (part of the war booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)? When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him for he deserves more than that from the Khumus."'

This is basically related to show Muhammad's approval of Ali having sex with a slave.

Then there are several other hadith sources such as;
FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3371

Abu Sirma said to Abu Said al Khudri: "O Abu Said, did you hear Allah's messenger mentioning about al-azl (coitus interruptus)?" He said, "Yes", and added: "We went out with Allah's messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl" (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: "We are doing an act whereas Allah's messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?" So we asked Allah's messenger and he said: "It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born".

Also shared are a number of others such as;

'FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD, VOLUME 2, # 2150:

Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24].



The note on this Hadith says that "After the distribution of the spoils of war a man may have intercourse with the female slave after passing one menstrual period, if she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant one should wait till she delivers the child. This is the view held by Malik, al-Shafi and Abu Thawr. Abu Hanifah holds that if both the husband and wife are captivated together, their marriage tie still continues; they will not be separated. According to the majority of scholars, they will be separated. Al-Awzai maintains that their marriage tie will continue till they remain part of the spoils of war. If a man buys them, he may separate them if he desires, and cohabit with the female slave after one menstrual period."

I suppose you would possibly know better than I how influential the above mentioned people and books are, or even if what the source claims are in the books is true or not, but the general impression i got is that some influential Muslims have believed that Muhammad allowed sex with slaves.

You can see the full website here: Muhammad and the Female Captives
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
For the part1 I may have misremembered something loosely based on an anti-Muslim website, but for part 2 "allowed marital sex without consent i think it is justified because the many scholars who did not forbid it presumably would have forbid it if they thought Muhammad did.

Yes that I agree. There were many scholars who thought that wife was obliged to have sex with the man, and that there is nothing called marital rape. Ironically, the woman who was a major writer in this matter was a convert to Islam. And I think she is highly quoted in the Wikipedia page you provided.

Anyway, there were also many many scholars who opposed this.

This is a fikh issue, and you did not say anything about "why do you trust it" though I asked at least twice.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I have a simple approach - I think all the religious are delusional, just as most or many will see the same in me. :D
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
@firedragon I might discuss this with you even though it may be a bit controversial because it comes from an anti-Muslim site, so may not be true, but it refers to the following books claiming faithful Muslims said Muhammad had sex with his slave;

'
In the "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", mention is made of Mariyah. On page 151, it says



"He [the Lord of Alexandria] presented to the prophet Mariyah, her sister Sirin, a donkey and a mule which was white....The apostle of Allah liked Mariyah who was of white complexion and curly hair and pretty.... Then he cohabited with Mariyah as a handmaid and sent her to his property which he had acquired from Banu al-Nadir."



The note for the word "handmaid" says "Handmaids gained the status of wedded wives if they bore children. They were called "umm walad" and became free.





This story is also supported by Tabari's History, volume 39, page 194. Here is the quote: (my words are in ( ) parenthesis).



"He (Muhammad) used to visit her (Mariyam) there and ordered her to veil herself, [but] he had intercourse with her by virtue of her being his property."



The note (845) on this says, "That is, Mariyah was ordered to veil herself as did the Prophet's wives, but he did not marry her."'

'
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 5, #637:

Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (part of the war booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)? When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him for he deserves more than that from the Khumus."'

This is basically related to show Muhammad's approval of Ali having sex with a slave.

Then there are several other hadith sources such as;
FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3371

Abu Sirma said to Abu Said al Khudri: "O Abu Said, did you hear Allah's messenger mentioning about al-azl (coitus interruptus)?" He said, "Yes", and added: "We went out with Allah's messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl" (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: "We are doing an act whereas Allah's messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?" So we asked Allah's messenger and he said: "It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born".

Also shared are a number of others such as;

'FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD, VOLUME 2, # 2150:

Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24].



The note on this Hadith says that "After the distribution of the spoils of war a man may have intercourse with the female slave after passing one menstrual period, if she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant one should wait till she delivers the child. This is the view held by Malik, al-Shafi and Abu Thawr. Abu Hanifah holds that if both the husband and wife are captivated together, their marriage tie still continues; they will not be separated. According to the majority of scholars, they will be separated. Al-Awzai maintains that their marriage tie will continue till they remain part of the spoils of war. If a man buys them, he may separate them if he desires, and cohabit with the female slave after one menstrual period."

I suppose you would possibly know better than I how influential the above mentioned people and books are, or even if what the source claims are in the books is true or not, but the general impression i got is that some influential Muslims have believed that Muhammad allowed sex with slaves.

You can see the full website here: Muhammad and the Female Captives

Dont worry. Anti Islamic websites are a general find when you search through google hard with an anti islamic search.

Since you are using some ahadith.

1. What are the thadlees levels.
2. What is the Isnad?
3. How is it Sarih?
4. Why do you trust it (for the third time)?

Peace.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Dont worry. Anti Islamic websites are a general find when you search through google hard with an anti islamic search.

Since you are using some ahadith.

1. What are the thadlees levels.
2. What is the Isnad?
3. How is it Sarih?
4. Why do you trust it (for the third time)?

Peace.
What is the Islamic world (if there is such) depicting the non-Islamic world as - just curious?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Dont worry. Anti Islamic websites are a general find when you search through google hard with an anti islamic search.

Since you are using some ahadith.

1. What are the thadlees levels.
2. What is the Isnad?
3. How is it Sarih?
4. Why do you trust it (for the third time)?

Peace.
I made no claims about thadlees levels, isnad, Sarih, nor did I say I trust the hadith.

As a matter of fact I've been saying I can't know if Muhammad had sex with His slaves several times now so I don't know where you are getting that I trust the hadith.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I made no claims about thadlees levels, isnad, Sarih, nor did I say I trust the hadith.

As a matter of fact I've been saying I can't know if Muhammad had sex with His slaves several times now so I don't know where you are getting that I trust the hadith.

Alright mate. Cheers.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
What is the Islamic world (if there is such) depicting the non-Islamic world as - just curious?

There is nothing called an Islamic world. I mean literally. But I understand this phrase generally addresses muslims generally. For example, in Asia, the "Islamic world" for these muslims have predominantly been their own society, until the TV started showing the other societies and some ideas were shared.

Anyway, what you are asking seems to be a sociological one, thus it is highly subjective. If I have got you wrong, tell me what you really mean.

Cheers.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
There is nothing called an Islamic world. I mean literally. But I understand this phrase generally addresses muslims generally. For example, in Asia, the "Islamic world" for these muslims have predominantly been their own society, until the TV started showing the other societies and some ideas were shared.

Anyway, what you are asking seems to be a sociological one, thus it is highly subjective. If I have got you wrong, tell me what you really mean.

Cheers.
Well, if we replace Islamic with Muslim, I just wondered if we had any sort of consensus as to how Muslims tend to see non-Muslims, but I suspect this isn't a profitable question to ask, given the variety of Muslim societies and where others are just segments of more secular societies - with therefore possibly quite disparate views. Just wondered if the religion tended to override much else.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well, if we replace Islamic with Muslim, I just wondered if we had any sort of consensus as to how Muslims tend to see non-Muslims, but I suspect this isn't a profitable question to ask, given the variety of Muslim societies and where others are just segments of more secular societies - with therefore possibly quite disparate views. Just wondered if the religion tended to override much else.

In some societies, it culture to mix and associate with non-muslims, while in others, there are no non-muslims to associate. Yes, as you said it way too eclectic and way too wide to make one thought appear authoritative. In some places modernisation has been a dividing factor after a 1000, while in some modernisation has worked the other way around.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Truth has a well known habit of so very often being slanderous and defamatory, even when it's politely stated.

For that matter, it usually speaks quietly, hesitantly -- so unlike the thunder of many clergy and most politicians, wouldn't you say?

There will always be those who impute such falsehoods against the Prophets of God.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I know what you believe. Its the Shii narrative. You carry the same theological faith in the ancestry and the Imamate of the Shii's. Thats why every time the hatred towards the so called "Sunni Khalifate" is shown vehemently.

Anyway, this question was asked to show the double standards. There is no point because your knowledge on this is absolutely limited though you claim you have studied it. And also, your knowledge is purely from the Bahai narrative which is based on the Shii narrative.

Anyway, you missed the point of the post you are replying to. Thats why you said "monarchy or not makes little difference". Prior to responding with emotion LOH, read the context of the post you are replying to.

Peace.

Not true. The golden age of learning was brought about by the Caliphs. The House of Wisdom in Baghdad, Andalusia and its effect on Europe and the west. It’s only in successorship that we believe Ali but that doesn’t mean Islam did not revive Europe and make massive contributions to civilisation.

I notice the west in its history books seems to exclude all that Islam has done for humanity.

You’re right I don’t know as much as you do. I was raised a Christian but came to accept Muhammad and the Quran later. Now I regularly read and try to learn more about Islam but give me a break please as I’m a sincere believer in the Prophet but not an expert.

I have read and studied a lot but just because I don’t know as much as you do is no reason to belittle me because I’m on the side of Muhammad and the Quran and always defend and uphold and defend them when baseless and false accusations are made.

I feel at one with you and all Muslims but I’m ignorant on many a matter so please be patient. Any good books on Islamic history written by Muslims that are scholarly that I can buy? I’m always wanting to learn more.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Thats slanderous and defamatory. Muhammad is a Prophet of God.

No doubt you passionarely believe in this " Mohammed " as much as LDS folks think Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and really found gold books.
Same with a thousand thousand other such
claimants, none of whom have the slightest
evidence they are not fakes.

Great stuff! "My guy is the real prophet!"
"No mine is".

Out come the fists, swords, cannons,
rockets.

Freaking insane.
 
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