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Do you get smart when you die?

Discussion in 'Theism' started by Wilso, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Jesus spoke about certain people who would be 'cut off' in Gods day of Armageddon. Those who God deems to be unfit will recieve an adverse judgement and be cut off. As they would have been judged already, there is no reason for God to resurrect them.
    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.... 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness

    John 3:4 "Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and so sin is lawlessness"

    Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels"

    Fire is synonymous to destruction and hence it is an everlasting death for those people. They will not receive a resurrection because they will be judged at Gods day of armageddon.


    But now turn your attention to those who had died before Jesus returns to earth for the battle of Armageddon. Those people have not been judged because if you are dead physically, then you have no consciousness, no memory, no will or desire or knowledge....dead people have their sins removed completely because they have paid the price for their sin and no longer practice sin.

    These are the ones who will be resurrected to a 2nd chance. They will have an opportunity to learn and either accept or deny God.


    There are really two time periods and two groups of people. The first time period is the time BEFORE armageddon, and the 2nd time period is what happens AFTER armageddon.
    Before armageddon all the people alive at that time will be judged AT armageddon. If they are judged worthy, they will live under Christs millenial rule. If they are judged UNworthy, they will be cut off everlastingly.

    After armageddon, all of mankind who died before Armageddon, will be resurrected to life where they will learn and choose. Thats why its a resurrection of judgment...because they will have to be judged on what they choose to do after they are resurrected.

    Does this makes sense?
     
  2. Silver

    Silver Just maybe

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    Moments before you die future scientists travel back in time and transfer your consciousness to a man-made afterlife realm.

    From there I expect you can get plug-ins to increase your ability to think well and to expand your consciousness.

    Everybody, 2-day old infants included, as well as unborn children will be there.

    :rainbow1:
     
  3. QuestionMark

    QuestionMark Member

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    Silver,
    I heard of a physicist who wrote a book about resurrection and eternal life being within scientific possibility (and if humans stay alive, probably an unavoidable future). Pretty interesting.

    Pegg,
    I think I understand you now. You're saying that there are two judgments

    1. Before Armageddon there will be a judgment in which those alive at the time will live in the millennial rule and if judged unworthy they will be cut off (cease to exist).
    2. After Armageddon those who were dead before will be resurrected and choose. (Presumably to live eternally or to cease to exist?).

    Ok so now that I have a framework for understanding this, where are the Scriptures to support it, especially the idea of choosing? Do you not agree with the Bible's teaching on predestination? (A) and,

    What in the world are Jesus and the prophets talking about when they speak of fire, darkness, torment, weeping? It seems like the prophets and the Son of God must have been lying to warn people about all these terrors when they don't actually exist. Do you see what I'm doing here? You are saying that God is better for having not sent people to the place of torment (I know this doctrine makes JW's a bit more popular in conversations about the place of torment). But, if Jesus and the prophets warned people about the wrath to come, how do you dismiss that wrath and say that only sleep will come? (B)

    Thanks for explaining, it makes a lot more sense now.

    Looking forward to your reply,
    QM
     
    #63 QuestionMark, Dec 10, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  4. Copernicus

    Copernicus Godless Hierophant

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    QM, that is called science fiction, and you don't even have to be a scientist to jump to that conclusion. We are physical beings, and it is theoretically possible that we could be duplicated. If your mind and body could be duplicated after death, it could also be duplicated while you are alive. Then there would be two different yous. What do you think of that? Don't both of you answer at once. :cool:
     
  5. Nepenthe

    Nepenthe Tu Stultus Es

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    I'm guessing that you're referring to Tipler's book The Physics of Immortality. It's such a bat**** insane book that I can't even called it sci-fi or pseudoscience but the odd musings of a mathematician and his unfalsifiable Omega Point theory.

    I will concede that it was a fun read though. :)
     
    #65 Nepenthe, Dec 10, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  6. QuestionMark

    QuestionMark Member

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  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Remember at Matthew chapter 7 Jesus was talking about one's personal judgment of another, and not the questioning of God's written judgment as recorded in Scripture. God's judgment of what is right or wrong is already recorded for us for all to read. People can misjudge another and even impute a bad or wrong motive to another by mistake.

    The judgment of Matthew 25vs31,32 is in connection to the judgment of Isaiah 11v4. People are not doing that judging, but Jesus is doing the judging.
    Jesus as it says 'judges in righteousness' which is in harmony with Jesus 'righteous warfare' of Rev 19v11 when no one righteous in God's eyes are harmed.

    As for the dead, 'how they will be judged' is: in righteousness.
    Except for those of Matt 12v32; Heb 6vs4-6 all the dead will have the opportunity to be judged in righteousness [Acts 24v15]
    Romans 6 v7,23 says the dead are freed or acquitted from sin.
    Being acquitted would not mean they are innocent,
    but as a judge can pardon a person so the crime [sin] charges no longer stick.
    What a person does 'after' resurrection will determine their prospect for everlasting life.
     
  8. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    yay! yes that is correct.

    Scriptures for what will happen before Armageddon:

    The disciples are given an overview of what will occur in the 'last days' just before Gods day of Judgement.
    Matthew 24
    He shows that the day of Judgment will be like the days of Noah and the flood. Noah preached for 40 years before the flood came, but most people refused to listen and when the day arrived, those who refused to accept God died in the flood but those who had taken refuge in God had survived on the Ark.
    So it is today, the kingdom message is being preached, some are responding and some are not.
    Matthew 24:14 "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
    Vs36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came ( notice two groups of people, those who listen and act and those who dont) and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
    Vs 40 shows that the judgment is done and the choosing takes place by God removing one person and allowing anther to remain
    40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.
    "

    So Jesus gave the picture that during the last days, he will arrive in heavenly glory and he will be separating the 'sheep from goats'
    This occurs based on their attitudes towards the good news and their obedience to doing Gods will.
    Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left
    He goes on to show that the goats are the ones who are judged worthy of being 'cut off' and they are the ones who the earlier verse says will be 'abandoned'
    25:41 “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels" Everlasting fire is everlasting destruction because they will not get a resurrection as they have already been judged.
    As for those who are judged worthy of salvation, they will be left over as Rev 7 shows
    Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.



    So next comes the ones who are resurrected AFTER armageddon.
    And im only speaking of the earthly resurrection here...not the heavenly one which is the 'first' resurrection of the chosen heirs of the kingdom who will rule with Christ.
    Of the earthly resurrection Jesus said at John 5:25-29. “The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. . . . Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”


    Revelation 20:12 speaks of new scrolls that will be opened and the 'dead' (those who were brought up from the grave) will be judged out of the things written in that new scroll.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds
    Keep in mind that a person who has died 'has been acquitted from his sin' so they are not going to be judged by what they did before they died... they can only be judged by what they do after they are resurrected.
    And the new scroll that will be opened will be the basis of that judgment. We dont know what is in that new scroll yet...no one will know until it is actually opened which will not happen until AFTER Armageddon. And like the time period of the 'last days' when Jesus has been separating people, so it will be at that time...the judgement of people will occur over a period of time.





    No. We are given choice, so the idea that God chooses for us is not in harmony with the scriptures.
    The idea of predestination comes from some reading the scriptures about the 'chosen ones' and they assume that everything is set out. The only things that are set out are Gods own purposes. He planned to have a kingdom made up of his Son and some joint rulers from the earth....that was his plan and that we could say is predestined or planned... but who those human joint rulers will be was not predestined. Judas could have been one of them but he chose to a different path for example.


    because the scriptures do not say that we exist in death. When Adam was told he would die, it meant he would return to 'dust'. So in harmony with the teaching of what happens to us when we die, we understand that the strong language Jesus and the prophets used was symbolic and metaphorical.

    Fire is symbolic of destruction- so the body is destroyed when it dies.
    Darkness is a place where no light shines...the light of God is a spiritual light, but if one is without such light they are said to exist in 'darkness'.
    Torment is symbolic of a jailer and being held captive in the grave...a place from which they cannot escape.
    Weeping is the result of not having Gods favor and missing out on salvation.
    Gnashing of teeth is what we do when we are being accused and shown up as unrighteous and we dont like it so we gnash our teeth at it.

    this sort of language they used was to get peoples attention...but its certainly not literal.
     
    #68 Pegg, Dec 10, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    There is the first, or earlier, resurrection for those that rule in heaven with Jesus for a thousand years over earth.

    Satan [Gog] has not yet been destroyed so the binding of Satan[Gog] would not require his being resurrected from the dead but just being let loose again.
    Hebrews 2v14 B.

    The resurrection 'delivered up' of verse 13 is for those that died 'before' Jesus takes the action of Matthew 25vs31,32.

    So there are two resurrections: One to heaven and one on earth.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    As Pegg said in post #39 the dead are Not conscious. Ecc 9v5.

    Not conscious would be not aware of either pain or bliss.

    What did Jesus think he would be doing while he was in hell?
    Acts 2 vs27,31

    Jesus told us about the state he believed the dead were in by his words at John [11vs11-14] that the dead sleep the deep sleep of death until they are resurrected. Besides Ecclesiastes, Jesus would have learned that idea from the Psalms. Such as: Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4

    Jesus would have also been familiar with Daniel's writings and know what Daniel wrote at 12v2 that many of those 'asleep' in the ground of dust who will wake up...to lasting life...
    They will awaken on resurrection morning, so to speak, or resurrected during Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth.
     
  11. andyjamal

    andyjamal servant

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    I believe that we continue to progress in the afterlife. A person may not automatically become more intelligent upon the event of death, but they will at that time be endowed with a greater capacity for intelligence; for, their mind will no longer be associated with a physical brain which may be subject to impediments such as lack of development or abnormal development.
     
  12. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    So the JW translators took the liberty to just place these words in the sacred text just because they felt it was part of the context? Isn't that being a bit presumptous?

    It's more logical than changing the whole meaning and scope of Rev 20:5 by reading something into the text that isn't there. No?

    We know God has allowed satan to deceive and influence mankind for the last 6,000 years (Rev 12:9; 1 John 5:19). We also know that the only way to be saved and be given eternal life is by accepting Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12).

    In addition, how unfair would it be for the God who claims to be just and fair to not offer an opportunity for eternal life to the wise, mighty and noble of this life to whom He has deliberately hidden His truth. (Mat 11:25; 1 Cor 1:26)

    Furthermore, how could we fathom the God of the bible allowing all men, women, and children who lived and died before Christ was born or did not have an opportunity to hear His name, be forever doomed?

    What about those living in remote areas of the earth, past or present, who have no access to a tv, radio, or any other form of media or outside contact and do not have a clue that the bible even exists? What about the mentally retarded, as this thread purports, or how about the countless millions of aborted babies, will they be condemned by a loving and merciful God?

    God desires for all men, past and present, to eventually be saved:

    John 3:17: For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

    1Ti 2:4: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    2 Pet 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”


    How else would these scriptures be fulfilled unless God resurrects every man, woman, and child that ever lived after the millenium (Rev 20:5) in a satan-free, (Rev20:2) Christ-centered environment and allot them 100 years (Isa 65:20) to accept or reject His way of life?

    JW's interpretation is full of symbolism and allegory. God intended the bible to be interpreted literally until proven otherwise. Had He inspired the bible with too much symbolism, He knew our human imaginations would make a mess of religion--and we made a mess of it regardless...Humans!! :)

    In Matthew 22:31-32 Jesus was simply referring to the fact that since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are currently dead, God cannot be their God until they are resurrected. In other words, God is the God of live beings not dead ones.

    Christ and His Saints will be resurrected just before the start of the millenium. They will eradicate the pockets of rebellion who refuse to accept the fact that Christ and the Saints will be in charge (Psa 149:5-9). They will officially begin the millenium with the few humans who survive the catastrophic end time events (Zec 14:16) and will undergo a massive clean up and divine healing campaign (Ezekiel 47:1, 8-9; Amos 9:13-14;Isa 35:3-6).

    For the remainder of the 1,000 years, Christ, the Saints, and the people will logistically prepare the earth for the massive population influx at the end of the millenium (Isaiah 35:1-2, 7; 40:4) This instant resurrection of "the rest of the dead" described in Rev 20:5, 11-12 will consist of every every man, woman, and child who ever lived, without accepting Christ. Which if it were to happen today, would be a staggering 100+ billion !!

    They will be resurrected, in what would have seem like a split second from the moment they died, to physical life with the same memories, personality, habits (good and bad) from their previous life. They will be given a 100 yr period of time to overcome their human nature and be judged by Christ and His Saints (1 Cor 6:2) based on the things which are written in the books of the bible! (Rev 20:12) Much like true Christians are being judged today (1 Pet4:17). At the end of the 100 years (Isa 65:20), Christ will decide their fate.

    Humanity will appreciate the 2nd opportunity at life they did not anticipate and will experience a gargantuan difference between 1100 yrs of God's way of life verses the world they once remembered. The large majority, if not all, will repent and be granted salvation. Therefore, fulfilling the indented scriptures outlined above! The time frames make perfect sense!! May God speed that day!
     
  13. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    You would be naive if you didn't realize that all translators do this when transferring from one language to another... its a necessity

    if you think revelation is written in chronological order you'd be mistaken. None of the bible is in chronological order.

    the wise and mighty of this world do not avail themselves of Gods salvation by Christ...they choose to defy God and his word which is why they dont get to understand it. If they receive an adverse judgment for that, then that is fair.
    One must have the right attitude before God helps them to understand the light of his word...not everyone has such an attitude.

    they are not doomed forever. They are the ones who will be resurrected 'during' Christs 1,000 year reign and be given such an opportunity.
    As I have stated earlier, we just dont know how such ones will be judged. My personal belief is that they will also be given an opportunity to make a choice. Aborted babies can be reborn into the wombs of woman who have children in Gods new world... just as God was able to put the life of Jesus into Mary's womb, so he can recreate those aborted babies into the wombs of women again and allow them the birth they were denied.

    With 1,000 years ahead of them, there will be plenty of time for them.

    Ok, so you think this will happen after the 1,000 year rule of Christ. But the bible shows that Christs rule is for the very purpose of leading mankind back to perfection...it will take a long time for him to do this and it will take a long time for people to make the necessary changes.

    surely you dont think the book of revelation is literal? Dragons and angels flying around the skies, lakes of fire etc
    How about some ofJesus parables...the wheat and weeds for instance... was Jesus giving us a lesson in agriculture? Or was Peter being literal when he said God was going to burn the earth up and destroy it?

    The bible contains both literal and symbolic things... you have to sort through which is which.

    but in that very passage Jesus ends by saying "he is a God, not of the dead, but of the living for they are all living to him"
     
    #73 Pegg, Dec 10, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  14. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    What a difference between rebuttals. Plenty of scriptures and logic to support mine...A couple of misconstrued and sabotaged verses and lots of opinions, symbolism and allegory from yours..

    I most certainly do not claim to know all their is to know about God's Word. Anyone claiming to do so exercises pride and arrogance. My mind is always open to expanding my knowledge of Scripture. Since we are to grow in grace and knowledge, I thought I could glean some from you being that we have somewhat similar beliefs about the resurrections but you have not provided anything compelling enough to even investigate.

    We'll just have to let Christ settle this one. :)
     
  15. QuestionMark

    QuestionMark Member

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    James,
    Your ideas are interesting, and I'm curious if you are aware that passages that say 'all men' can also be translated 'all mankind' and fit better with the gospel going to every nation tribe and tongue. In other words, it fits better to say that God is saving the whole race, but not every soul.

    Looking forward to your reply,
    QM
     
  16. QuestionMark

    QuestionMark Member

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    UR,
    If the dead are not conscious why is Jesus warning people about torment, darkness, and weeping? Check this out. You have one passage that says the dead are not conscious of anything and about 100 that indicate directly or indirectly that there will be suffering for those who stubbornly disobey God in eternity. Why choose the 1 (from a book about existentialism) over the 100? :D
    Looking forward to your reply,
    QM
     
  17. QuestionMark

    QuestionMark Member

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    Pegg,
    I think that the issue of resurrections is much more complex than the issue of predestination, and if your view of the resurrections depends on your view of predestination then it would be better for us to discuss that. Does that make sense?
    Thanks again for describing things in detail your patience is admirable,
    QM
     
  18. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    this is why I tried to offer the reasoning which suggests that Rev20:5 is not about being 'resurrected' after the 1,000 years but they are 'coming to life' in a different sense. You are reading it literally, yet the scriptures speak about life and death figuratively in many cases.

    think about the verses from Ephesians and Colossians where Paul says that christians were once 'dead' but God made them 'alive'
    You surely know that this is figurative. Paul was speaking to living people. Even Jesus spoke about some people who refused to follow him as being 'dead'.

    Also in Rev 20, the context is that John is speaking of the first resurrection. The first resurrection is for the Chosen ones who are resurrected to 'life' and will rule with Christ in heaven. Look at your bible and notice that the phrase is in brackets ("and the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1,000 years ended")
    The reason why translators put this phrase in brackets is because they are not linked to those being spoken of in Rev 20. Here it is:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years"


    You see, the first resurrection are for those who will rule with Christ in heaven. The REST OF THE DEAD will not be going to rule in heaven with Christ. These take part in the 2nd resurrection - the earthly resurrection. They will be the ones such as the criminal who Jesus said 'you will be with me in paradise' and the faithful men of old such as Abel, Abraham, Jacob etc and anyone you may personally know who have died ...your great grandparents, and their parents.... and people from the first world war who died at that time... all those millions of people who died in concentration camps. They are all 'the rest of the dead' who will receive an earthly resurrection

    And the reason why they dont 'come to life' until the 1000 years are ended is because they have to pass the final test. This is when Satan is released from his prison and all the people who are now perfect humans will have to tested. Some will again rebel and take sides with Satan....and they will be destroyed.
    John tells us what happens:
    Revelation 20:7-9a.“Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, ... to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

    That will be the final battle and many will choose to rebel but will be destroyed along with Satan. So to be a faithful perfect human at time will mean truly 'coming to life' forever. They will live eternally on earth as Psalms says: "The righteous will possess the earth and they will reside forever upon it"
    That is the 'real life' that we are to strive towards. Surviving armageddon is only the beginning. Living through the 1,000 years is only the 2nd stage to salvation. Remaining faithful during the final test will ensure that you 'come to life' forever.

    Do you see why it cannot be possible for the resurrection to occur after the 1,000 years?
     
  19. Wannabe Yogi

    Wannabe Yogi Well-Known Member

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    Hay, I would just like to get a little wisdom in this life.
     
  20. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    the only view that we take on predestination is that God does not predestine us one way or another

    He gives us a choice and he encourages us to choose obedience.
    The only thing he plans out is his own purpose and he invites us to join him in that purpose.

    ;)
     
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