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Do you get smart when you die?

Discussion in 'Theism' started by Wilso, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. Blackheart

    Blackheart Active Member

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    Now this may not be to your liking, if you are of one of the many Christian denominations who say its my way or no way, but it is my personal belief that messengers have been sent to all mankind. You have other faiths that believe that Jesus came to them also or even that God sent them a different messenger (prophet). Im not saying that everyone that claims to be a prophet is but I do suspect that our Jesus was not the only messenger the world has ever known. For example the Muslims say that you must accept that 'Mohammed is the Prophet' im not saying that I agree or disagree with this statement but the point is that its the belief in the message of God that is important. Obviously in the NT the messenger is Jesus so it would say that salvation is attained through Jesus and this is correct as he is the messenger.

    Ive never spoken to anyone from the Amazon etc so I do not know if there have ever been any messengers/messages in their religion that may possibly fit this bill but I dont believe that God would ignore them for the sin of not living in a highly populated area of the earth. Surely you dont believe that God is only interested in saving people from Christian nations such Europe, the Americas and partially Africa???

    As for babies there are differing view points as to what happens to them but in my opinion they have not yet reached the age of accountability that the Bible talks of and would therefore be exempt. The mentally disabled may also fit into this catergory as you can usually define the severity of their disability by their mental age.

    Please dont misunderstand me. I know that not everyone will go to heaven but I believe that we were all given an equal chance. How would you otherwise propose that God choses who he wants from who he doesnt?
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I heard one person make the comment that besides mass global Bible distribution because of now having rapid Bible translation into so many languages that by the year 2025 there would be no one left on earth that will not have heard.

    I am not saying he is right about the year, but rapid translation would help speed along the fulfillment of Matthew 24v14 that the good news would be spread on a global or world-wide scale before the end times of all badness on earth comes.
    If people can get to the Amazon or Himalayas in the first place, then so to can other people get there with the message of the good news of God's kingdom.

    Many born before Jesus did 'pass a test' so to speak.
    Wasn't Abraham tested? -Genesis chapter 22
    Wasn't Noah tested? -2nd Peter 2v5
    Wasn't Moses tested? -Exodus

    True, they did not know Jesus would prove to be the promised 'seed' of Genesis 3v15, but they did know that the 'seed' would come though Abraham.
    Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18, and that first the Constitution of the Mosaic law would have to be fulfilled though the Messiah or Christ.
    -Daniel 9 vs25,26

    In order for those 'born before Jesus' [Jews and non-Jews] to pass a test they would have to resurrected or restored back to earthly life. -Acts 24v15.
    Except for those of Matthew 12v32, during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth the majority will be 'delivered up' [resurrected] according to Rev 20v13.
    In the resurrection no one will be brought back to life mentally incapable.
    -Isaiah 25v8; 1st Cor 15v26; Rev 21vs4,5
     
  3. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    The verses are clear:

    John 3:17: For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

    1Ti 2:4: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    2 Pet 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

    No distinctions here. How are these scriptures going to be fulfilled? If the majority of humanity, past and present, has not received an opportunity to hear the only name under heaven in which they may be saved?

    And this will take place after "all flesh" [rest of the dead] (Rev 20:5) have had their first and fair opportunity for salvation. As the verses indented above indicate.

    How about those that are unawares of satan's existence? Are they considered unbelievers? How can a person believe a lie from a being they do not know exists?

    He probably spoke to many more. But only ended up with 120 disciples immediately after His death and resurrection.

    Even those who don't currently know or never knew He existed?

    So Jesus will destroy, through no fault of their own, those who never even knew He existed?

    How could those, whom God never gave a chance to hear the gospel be considered wicked?

    My point is there are way too many holes, gaps, questions, and billions unaccounted for with the "God attempting to save the whole world in this age" doctrine.
     
    #103 james2ko, Dec 12, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  4. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    Every Christian has personal beliefs. However, they should all stem from the evidence of scripture. You realize all of your statements are opinions unsupported by scripture? You are entitled to your opinion but keep in mind everyone has one. As Christians, we are to live by every word of God ( Luk 4:4) and lean not on our own understanding or opinion (Pro 3:5). The biblical evidence undeniably indicates God can not be trying to save the world in this age.

    Ask any preacher, call or email the Vatican and ask them if they think the gospel has been heard by every soul on the planet before they died.

    Exempt from what? Condemnation or salvation? According to scripture, it is impossible for them to be exempt from either one, until they receive an opportunity to accept or reject Christ!!!

    As I mentioned, scripture indicates, no one, not even the righteous go to heaven.

    John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven

    Christ and His Saints will be resurrected just before the start of the millenium. They will eradicate the pockets of rebellion who refuse to accept the fact that Christ and the Saints will be in charge (Psa 149:5-9). They will officially begin the millenium with the few humans who survive the catastrophic end time events (Zec 14:16) and will undergo a massive clean up and divine healing campaign (Ezekiel 47:1, 8-9; Amos 9:13-14;Isa 35:3-6).

    For the remainder of the 1,000 years, Christ, the Saints, and the people will logistically prepare the earth for the massive population influx at the end of the millenium (Isaiah 35:1-2, 7; 40:4) This instant resurrection of "the rest of the dead" described in Rev 20:5, 11-12 will consist of every man, woman, and child who ever lived, without accepting Christ. Which if it were to happen today, would be a staggering 100+ billion !!

    They will be resurrected, in what would have seem like a split second from the moment they died, to physical life with a completely healthy mind and body with the same memories, personality, habits (good and bad) from their previous life. Scripture indicates they will be given a 100 yr period of time, known as the Great White Throne Judgment Period, to overcome their human nature (Isa 65:20) and be judged by Christ and His Saints (1 Cor 6:2) based on the things which are written in the books of the bible! (Rev 20:12) Much in the same manner true Christians are being judged on how well they overcome in this life (1 Pet4:17). At the end of the 100 years , Christ will decide their fate.

    Humanity will appreciate the 2nd opportunity at life [not salvation] they did not anticipate and will experience the mind boggling difference between 1000+ yrs of God's way of life versus the world they once remembered. The large majority, if not all, will repent and be granted salvation. Therefore, fulfilling the indented scriptures in post #72 here.

    Unfortunately, there will be a few who refuse to accept God's way of life. God will not grant salvation and an eternal spiritual body, with God like powers, to anyone who refuses to repent of their sins. He will no longer tolerate scores of sinful beings wreaking havoc on the universe like satan and his demons once did.

    He will have no choice but to resurrect those who died in rejection of their only shot at salvation from this life and the millenium, as physical human beings and will include the unrepentant physical humans from the 100 yr GWTJ period, and cast them all into the lake of fire where they would experience the second death and simply cease to exist forever (Rev 20:14). This would be the third resurrection described in Rev 20:13-14.

    This is the hell the bible talks about repeatedly. A loving and merciful God will not allow weak, fleshly, unrepentant humans to suffer eternal torment in an ever burning hell. That type of punishment is reserved for the Devil and his demons (Rev 20:10) who were created with much greater power and ability (Eze 28:13-15) than humans (Psa 8:4-5) but fell into sin and used their awesome power destructively (Luk 12:48).
     
    #104 james2ko, Dec 12, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  5. QuestionMark

    QuestionMark Member

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    I don't understand your question. I was referring to the human race, in biological terms that means species. In Biblical terms it's 'kind'. If biologists and sociologists don't see a distinction between men and other animals maybe we should stop paying them. :)

    Looking forward,
    QM
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    John 3v17 uses the word MIGHT Might is not an assurance.
    1Tim2v4 shows God's desire. Not showing that all will desire God's desire.
    2Pt3v9 God is not willing [wishing] any should perish, but in order not to perish one has to have genuine repentance. -Hebrews 10v26
    Luke3v6 Yes all flesh will see the salvation or saving means of God by the destruction of all the wicked by Christ Jesus
    as Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19v15 says in harmony with the annihilation of those of Psalm 92v7.

    Jesus 'war is in righteousness' according to Rev 19v11.
    Righteous war would mean no one innocent killed.

    Please notice the basis the sheep and goats are judged.
    The sheep and goats of Matthew 25v32 are judged by how they treated Jesus 'brothers' of verse 40. So all will see the salvation of God but the salvation will be only for the sheep-like ones that all are seeing.

    Since the good news of God's kingdom [Matt 24v14] is spread around the globe then no one will Not have the opportunity to choose.
    Rapid Bible translation, besides world-wide Bible distribution, helps speed up the spreading of the gospel.

    What does Zephaniah 2v3 say?________________
    The maybe part is on us.
    And as Matthew 20v28 says: Jesus ransom covers: 'many' Not all.
    Are those of Matthew 12v32 covered?_____________

    .
     
  7. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    That's right. Those that come up in the judgment period will still have to repent and accept God's way of life. Salvation will not be guaranteed.

    The King James Version renders it:

    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    God will show His desire by providing the fair opportunity, but mankind will still have to desire to choose His way of life in order to be saved.

    But in order to have repentance one needs an opportunity to know what to repent of. (Rom 5:13)

    The wicked are those who have had their one and only chance at salvation and rejected it. They will be destroyed in the future, after the millenium, in the lake of fire. How does that equate to saving anybody now or in the past that have never heard of Christ?

    The parable of the sheep and the goats I do not believe applies to this age. This refers to the judgment of those, during the millenium and the 100 yr judgment period, who have received their fair shot at salvation!

    There are many countries that have outlawed Christianity and ownership of a bible. For example, it would be impossible for every citizen of North Korea, past and present, to know or have known who Jesus Christ was-- let alone believe, repent, and receive the Holy Spirit--which, according to scripture, are requirements for eternal life (salvation)

    Who determines truth? There are 33,000+ Christian denominations and sects worldwide all claiming to have the "truth". Why would God attempt to save the world while allowing such deception and confusion?

    1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.​

    And in due time,[eventually] all flesh [past and present] will testify [witness] the significance of Christ's sacrifice !-- which corresponds perfectly with the indented scriptures in post #103!

    The bible is clear UR...God is not trying to save the world at this time. If He were, then our Omnipotent God is not so Omnipotent because He is failing miserably. As much as we want to believe it, the vast majority of the world's population has not had a fair opportunity to know and accept Christ. God has allowed satan, the ruler of this world, to blind this planet's inhabitants from the truth, until Christ replaces him at His return. Then and only then will the veil of deception be lifted.

    Notice how Isaiah mentions the removal of God's blinding veil during the millenial age. The implication is, there is one placed on this age, which other scriptures confirm. Compare Isa 25:6-7 with 2 Co 4:3-4:

    Isa 25:6-7 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. 7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

    2Co 4:3-4 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. ​
     
    #107 james2ko, Dec 14, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2010
  8. andyjamal

    andyjamal servant

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    I think that existence in general is much simpler in the afterlife, especially in reference to an individual's existence, for it will consist of only a soul, a unified entity, not comprised of parts (I think (never been there)).
     
  9. QuestionMark

    QuestionMark Member

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    James,
    I think your post was thorough and generally very good at demonstrating your point, I admire your patience. soli deo gloria
    Yours in Christ,
    QM
     
  10. David69

    David69 Angel Of The North

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    No man, am ok, am Jesus angel, am not meant to do books so that I can see for myself the truth, shown to me by the father himself! :yes: ive moved into the temple he built for me and it is the most high and before me is the statue of the angel, facing south! The manipulators of religion will fall by the time I rule the world! Look to the Jew for guidence!
     
  11. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you understand. It's not a request. You cannot reject the opportunity in this life. You will have to wait until then. As far as you being an angel, if you still bleed, then I'm afraid you've been deceived. And in case you haven't read the end of the "book", I'll spoil the anticipation by telling you that in the end, we win! :yes:
     
  12. David69

    David69 Angel Of The North

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    I have not been deceived at all because I have not been brainwashed by religion (manipulation) u know what u do because of what has been bashed into you!
    I have free will and the communication given to me by the father! not my some manipulators hand book!
    when I am out of body I cant bleed... I am the angel!
    Jesus: I send forth my angel to testify to the nations! I AM THE ROOT AND OFFSPRING OF DAVID, WE ARE ONE!!!!!!!!! You will win what??? Do you really have any idea? when the true messiah rules the world, you will beleive he is the anti-christ but yous accept him anyways! Man, give me a break!
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    God wishes all to repent [2Peter 3v9] but that does not mean all will repent.

    Those destroyed at Armageddon [Rev 19vs11,15;Isa 11v4] are destroyed 'before' the thousand year reign of Christ. They are also the goat-like ones of Matt 25v31,32 because they do not remain alive to be part of Jesus 1000 year reign.

    Doesn't Romans 6v7 apply to all of those that have not heard of Christ before their death?

    Yes, Jesus gave himself a ransom for all, but do all accept him?
    What does Matthew 20v28 say but that Jesus ransom covers 'many' not all.
    Doesn't Jesus make it clear in Matthew chapter seven not all accept him?
     
  14. IAMDONE

    IAMDONE Member

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    I are think when we die we are release DMTs and it makes big dream for 5 seconds/500 years which is 500 years in heaven/hell!
    Then MAAAAybe we maaaaaybe go into another body of somebody after some days of time.
    We are too dumb but we are get smart too fast!
    God hasn't had enough time to makes heaven,hell and himself yet.
    We should do things that makes us dumb so maybe in the future god can tell us aaaaall about what we neeed to know.
     
  15. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    Pretty bizarre stuff....Hey to each his own....I'm curious..In your signature you have the number 333. Does that make one only half evil :D
     
    #115 james2ko, Dec 20, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
  16. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    1. You made the same statement in post 107. And I replied in post 108 with: "But in order to have repentance one needs an opportunity to know what to repent of." To which you have not commented.

    2. The humans destroyed in the Valley of Megiddo [Armageddon] are the 200 million man army coming from the east (Rev 9:16; 16:12) along with the Beast's army who join forces to fight Christ at His coming. The verses above do not refer to our topic.

    3. Let's take a closer look:

    Mat 25:31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: ​

    These verses refer to physical humans who, depending on how well they lived their lives, will be rewarded eternal life or eternal damnation [second death]. The question is, are these verses referring to the period "immediately" following Christ return or could it be referring to an event that would occur "during" His reign?

    Notice how there is no qualifying time reference between vs 31 and vs 32. It does not say "immediately" like in Mat 24:29 or "right after". As we discussed in a different thread, there are passages in the bible with time gaps between them (Gen 1:1 and vs 2; The book of Isaiah has several).

    If you believe it refers to the beginning, then it would only include those physical humans living at the time of Christ's return. This means those who never had the opportunity to know Christ in this life, through no fault of their own, IE the North Koreans and many others, will be condemned to eternal damnation [goats]!! Does that sound like something our loving, fair, and just God would engage in?

    I believe it is referring to the judgment and subsequent reward or punishment of the rest of the dead who were resurrected to physical life after the 1,000 years were finished (Rev 20:5). They will be given a period of time believed to be 100 yrs (Isa 65:20) to accept or reject Christ's way of life (Rev 20:11-12) who, remember, is the only name under heaven given among men by which they can be saved (Acts 4:12).

    Those who accept Christ will be granted salvation [sheep]. Those who do not, will have rejected their one and only shot at salvation and be cast alive into the lake of fire [the goats].

    4. If you begin reading from verse one, the context becomes clear. Paul is addressing the subject of baptism!! (Rom 6:3) Baptism symbolizes the death, burial and a rising, or resurrection, from a watery grave (Col 2:12-13). In Rom 6:7, Paul was simply pointing out when we are baptized our "old sinful nature" dies and stays buried in the watery grave which symbolically frees Christians from the power of sin!!

    Furthermore, the Greek word "freed" used in Rom 6:7, is translated as "justified" or "justify" in 37 other verses in the KJV. Other passages tell us that only those who believe, repent, and are baptized in Christ can be justified or freed of their sins. Rom 6:7 is clearly not referring to those who died in ignorance of Christ. Paul is merely addressing Christians on the meaning and significance of baptism.

    5. The price or ransom Christ paid for mankind opens the door for all of humanity, past and present, to one day have an opportunity to obtain eternal life [salvation]. Christians are getting their opportunity in this life and if we endure and overcome, we will receive eternal life and postions of authority in the earthly kingdom at the 1st resurrection. But the majority of mankind--who are blinded to the truth; who have never heard or accepted Christ in this life-- will be called out of their graves, in their former human fleshly state, and be given their opportunity after the millenium.

    This 2nd resurrection is the event 1 Tim 2:6 is referring to when it states: In due time [eventually] all of humanity will witness [testify] the price [ransom] Christ paid for our sins. At that particular time, many but not all will accept the "ransom" and be granted eternal life, the few who do not, will be cast alive in the lake of fire and cease to exist.
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    james2ko-

    Sorry that I overlooked your question.
    Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
    Repent from sins.

    Armageddon is chapter 19 where the words from Jesus mouth are as sharp as a two-edged executioner's sword against the wicked. [see verse 15]
    Jesus, as Commander in chief, has angelic forces or angelic armies at his command according to verse 14 against the wicked. -Psalm 92v7; Jeremiah 25vs31-33.

    Please also notice Rev19v14 because what is unique about Jesus warfare is that Jesus carries on war in righteousness. Righteous war means no one innocent will be harmed.
    We do not know the extent that the gospel has reached people where Christianity is banned. People here from China took the gospel back to China. Korean people here can do the same for Korea. We do not know to what extent word of mouth has reached.
    Before the end times of all badness on earth comes we have the promise that the good news of God's kingdom will be proclaimed earth wide according to Matt 24v14.

    The definition of the lake of fire is : second death.
    Death according to Jesus is like sleep.- John 11vs11,14
    [Ecc 9v5; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4;Daniel 12vs2,13]
    Second death there is no resurrection to life anywhere in heaven or life on earth.

    Except for those of Matt 12v32, all the dead are covered by: Romans 6v7;23.
    Agree during the millennium all in hell will be delivered up as Rev 20vs13,14 says.
    Then emptied-out hell [biblical grave] dies a second death.
    Even Satan is destroyed according to Hebrews 2v14 B.
     
  18. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    1. Of course we do. Christianity is illegal in North Korea. If caught, it carries the death penalty. Until recently, it was also illegal in China. If you really think the few people who snuck the gospel into these countries preached it to every single citizen, you are bordering on delusional.

    Do you seriously think that every North Korean or the 1 billion + Chinese man, woman, and child that has ever lived and diedhas had an opportunity to know Christ? Come on UR....Let's keep it real...Deep down you know this is impossible.

    2. Did you read the chapter from the beginning? The context is quite plain. Even the scholars are almost all in agreement with Romans 6:7 referring to baptism and not all the dead that have lived in times past. Yet you continue to insist it doesn't :confused:

    3. You are just mostly repeating your statements from prior posts and not really addressing any of my rebuttals so I guess that's my cue to terminate the discussion. You can continue to ignore the clear scriptures and defy logic ,UR, but the fact of the matter remains... God is not attempting to save the world in this life.
     
    #118 james2ko, Dec 20, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    james2ko-

    Yes, when the Bible and its message have been banned people have risked their lives.
    In the concentration camps under Hitler under ban people spread the Bible's message.

    N Korea: lived and died. The dead are already covered by Romans 6v7,23.
    Acts 24v15 says there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust.
    So all the righteous and unrighteous will have a resurrection.
    A resurrection during resurrection morning, so to speak, during Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth. Only those of Matt 12v32 and those destroyed as described at Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19v15 will not have a resurrection anywhere heaven or earth but are annihilated- Psalm 92v7.

    So, God is Not attempting to 'save the world' in this life or time frame.
    Matthew chapter seven shows that, doesn't it?
    God will save those out of this world of badness that want to follow Jesus.
    Please notice at Matthew 24 v14 that the good news of God's kingdom will be preached in all nations for a witness [not conversion]
    of nations, and preached on a global scale then will the end come of all badness on earth.
    No human ban can stop that work. Bans failed in the past and they will again fail.

    Isn't Romans 6v5 talking about a: real resurrection?
    If we [Christ's brothers of Matt 25v40] 'in the likeness of Christ's death'
    we [brothers] will also be in the' likeness of Christ's resurrection'.
    1st Cor 15v50
    Christ was resurrected in a spirit [not human] body.
    So how can Rom6v7 be exclusive to baptism?
    Isn't the wages of sin: death ? Rom 6v23
    [no extra post-mortem penalty or bliss]
    So 'death' stamps the price tag of sin as Paid In Full.
    So except for those committing the unforgivable sin,
    all the rest of the dead are either part of the just and unjust of Acts 24v15.
    They are not judged by Christ as being wicked like those of Psalm 92v7.

    Besides, does baptism free or acquit from sin?_________
    Isn't it the shed 'blood of Jesus' according to 1st John 1v7 that cleanses from sin?_______
    Doesn't Baptism according to 1st Peter 3v21 say Baptism is the answer of a good or clean conscience before God.....?
     
    #119 URAVIP2ME, Dec 21, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
  20. David69

    David69 Angel Of The North

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    Lol, yeah, something like that. 333 is a 3rd of 999, turn the 9s around to see the other 3rd :D
     
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