I gave my position on reincarnation above. To me, your position above is saying nothing beyond the obvious (with all due respects). I do not think the word 'reincarnation' is appropriate here.
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Do you believe in reincarnation?
- Thread starter JRMcC
- Start date
I don't find the notion that karma passes along from one life to the next to be plausible, and furthermore I know of no unambiguous or clear evidence for it.
As for the notion that something more than merely karma passes along -- say, something like the transmigration of souls -- I find that even more problematic than karma.
To me, the most plausible thing, and the thing for which there exists the most evidence, is that nothing passes along, that when the process of dying is complete, we are no more. But even though that notion appears to me the most likely thing that happens, I think there is a tiny, minute chance it's wrong and that something does survive death.
That chance, however, is no more than a "we can never be absolutely sure" kind of chance -- worse than playing the state lottery, or than the odds lightening will strike us at the same moment a shark bites.
However, I did have a friend who pointed out that some people seemed to be wise -- or, wiser than others -- from birth. She thought that might be some evidence of reincarnation if we assumed that their wisdom came from their experiences in former lives. But I find her notion more interesting than plausible.
What in your view is reincarnated, and is it matter, energy, or both? And if energy, what kind of energy and how is it detected or measured?
There's more to the idea of reincarnation than just the recycling of raw materials. There's the matter of a pattern or essence.
Reduce a copy of Hamlet to its constituent molecules and it's no longer a copy of Hamlet.
When I started thinking about reincarnation many years ago, I can't say I approached it with such semantical considerations in mind. So while I could answer those questions, it wouldn't really represent the thought process I went through. Belief in reincarnation is common within contemporary Paganisms. When I was studying various forms of contemporary Paganism years ago, I encountered a number of different takes on reincarnation within the context of that religious community. Some were more similar to those found in Eastern religions, others inspired from the New Age movement, and others still along the lines of what I said earlier.
To put this in context, contemporary Paganisms are often described as "nature-based" religions. As such, it makes a lot of sense within contemporary Paganism to use a contemporary, ecological understanding of nutrient cycles and the like to frame a concept like reincarnation. On the whole, time is understood as cyclic/circular, and the interconnectedness of various aspects of our world is emphasized. Because of this, things like "death" and "birth" are seen as transformations that are part of a cyclic continuum - something that could be characterized as a sort of reincarnation. Death-rebirth gods are commonly honored to represent this cycle of reincarnation.
So I suppose the long and short of it is that I use the term reincarnation in this fashion because it's broadly accepted and understood in this way within the contemporary Pagan community.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Im not honestly familar with the common view that we will turn into animals and other humans until we reach nibanna. I believe that the spirits of my family (and of families in general) live as and in the generation before them. So knowing my mother is knowing my grandmother and so forth.
Unsettled spirits..those with no "home" are on earth. Whether they have a destination, I dont know. I wouldnt assume they know anymore than they do alive. Maybe a different perspective of life.
As for unsettled spirits as reincarnated souls, I wouldnt call it that but I dont think that is the right word for what I believe.
My father passed away just over ten years ago. He had lymphoma that spread to his brain.
Over the last few weeks in the hospital, I watched as the man who was my father was taken away bit by bit until he was left with no sign of consciousness except for the ability to feel pain. Then even that left, too.
The person who was my father did not survive in any observable way even until the metabolic death of his body. Why on Earth would I assume that he survived beyond this point in any form that could reasonably be called "him"?
From what I can tell, it all seems to be recycled and reused.
This is true for some understandings of reincarnation, yes. For Pagans who are materialists, though, they would view reincarnation as the recycling of things, though not as a "just." It is understood as a sacred process, and not "just" or "merely" anything, if that makes sense. As for how the matter of pattern/essence is interpreted, it varies and can get somewhat complicated. Paganisms on the whole emphasize interconnection in a way that throws a wrench in this-that thinking. It's not uncommon to see contemporary Pagans who view themselves as a legacy of their ancestors - that some essence/pattern of the ancestors is present within us. Even the essence/patterns of the foods we eat - the things we kill to live - become part of us, for some. It's just a different way of viewing the world.
@Quintessence - Not sure I understand the concept. It seems to be more of an ecological idea than a religious one.
Disagreeing with you does not mean rejecting the idea of deep meaning in the world.
What are you talking about then? Some version of homeopathy for humans?
I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. Ideas and concepts from the sciences can be utilized in a religious context, and I do this all the time in my path. Wouldn't make sense to avoid doing this, considering my gods are quite literally things like the air we're breathing and the land we're walking on.
I fully agree. What I honestly do not understand is why such a notion would be called reincarnation.
Then again, I do not understand the Hindu concept either. Maybe I am too used to the Kardecist Spiritism definitions, which are particularly extreme and unbelievable.
Then again, I do not understand the Hindu concept either. Maybe I am too used to the Kardecist Spiritism definitions, which are particularly extreme and unbelievable.
I suspect that the term reincarnation was lifted because historically, contemporary Paganism has drawn inspiration from Eastern religions and the term was convenient. That, and if we take reincarnation to in a general sense mean "continuation across multiple lifetimes," the shoe sort of fits.
Still, usually when I explain this to folks, I do make a point of emphasizing that this is an "unconventional" usage relative to Eastern religions. So there you go. Point: not your Eastern reincarnation.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I will say that I do believe in a process that could be called reincarnation, but the process I see is not the process that so many different schools of thought espouse on the subject. In my weirdo view, reincarnation has nothing to do with karma. I do not believe in karma, per se. The beauty of reincarnation is that it really DOES NOT MATTER if one believes in it or not. You will continue beyond the grave, but that "you" may bear very little resemblance to the "you" you know yourself to be.
Rather than a romp from microbe to divinity, reincarnation is more of a "what if" experiment, wherein the self manufactures open-ended scenarios to see how well it responds to situations within a very limited framework, with limited resources to meet the situation(s) encountered. It's not a test, but just a desire to learn more in a rather indelible way.
Rather than a romp from microbe to divinity, reincarnation is more of a "what if" experiment, wherein the self manufactures open-ended scenarios to see how well it responds to situations within a very limited framework, with limited resources to meet the situation(s) encountered. It's not a test, but just a desire to learn more in a rather indelible way.
Taylor Seraphim
Angel of Reason
I do not, due to lack of evidence.
It seems to me from my study of the terms some years ago--and this is old memory, nothing recent, and I've not the time at this moment to go check on the differences--that what many call "reincarnation" might also be called "transmigration of souls" and that these were very different concepts; although it seemed that what I read about the Eastern ideas about what happens to humans (and often, others as well) after death, were 1) multitudinous, 2) in no sense consistent amongst the variations, and 3) difficult to fit into Western words because we simply don't have the nuance to reflect the nuance in the different schools of Hindu, Buddhist and other Eastern tradition thought on the matter.
It seems to me a lot of the discussion in this thread is conflicting because we aren't carefully defining--or trying to understand--exactly what it is we each are talking about, while we all are trying to use the word "reincarnation" as if it only has one meaning. That doesn't seem productive to me.
It seems to me a lot of the discussion in this thread is conflicting because we aren't carefully defining--or trying to understand--exactly what it is we each are talking about, while we all are trying to use the word "reincarnation" as if it only has one meaning. That doesn't seem productive to me.
There is another school of thought that says consciousness is not the result of physical activity in the brain but that it incarnates the physical and at the time of death, the physical outer shell is dropped and consciousness continues in the astral double body with the clarity back that was lost when experiencing through the physical body. In NDE's people claim even greater clarity and sense of reality than when they were in their old physical state; e.g. they dropped the densest link in the chain supporting consciousness (the physical body).
As I see it, the key question in all of this is; do you believe consciousness is the creation of the brain or do you believe consciousness incarnates the brain. I have come to believe the latter from my study of the paranormal and the teachings of the eastern (Indian) spiritual traditions.
So I'm answering your question 'why on earth' would some believe that he survived.
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Yes, I do. It's the only scenario of what happens to us after brain-death that makes any sense to me.
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
Namaste,
I will give my (Hindu) perspective on this, i know that we as Hindus have many different beliefs regarding many issues, and this is purely my personal understanding.
PurnaJanma (previous birth) is of the Atman (not identity or ego), Atman is something that cannot actually be completely destroyed therefore it must after the body has decayed acquire another form (This is our truth claim), this acquisition is based on the Sanskaras that the Atman as accumulated through karma in life (this is another truth claim). This is based on the observation of many things in life, most prominent of this is the observation of the cyclic nature of all things, things are born, they grow, they die, then new things grow out of them and the cycle continues, so the same must apply to us as Humans and all other life forms, and because we are all individual and life happens to each individual in different times and places this is attributed to the Sanskaras and because it can be observed that some Sanskaras come without the influences of the outside world these must be transferred from a previous life, therefore we must have lived previously (this is our observation, assuming the two claims to be true). Sanskaras are similar to memory but not the memory of the things but memory of our Karm, more like impressions. So me and you as our Ego and Ahankara does not get birth again, this is more to explain the separate situations people seem to be born into this world, so accumulate good Sanskara, do your Karma without attachment to the Pahala as the Phala (rebirth) is uncertain (this is our reason to believe).
Dhanyavad