Do you Appreciate What the Universe has Given You

[Deeje]

You selected beautiful pictures. No human created picture comes close to such perfection IMO

Even if they could create 1 such beauty, how about creating a few trillions of them

God is described in Hindu Scriptures as Sathyam-Shivam-Sundaram = Truth-Godliness-Beauty

“Beauty” specifically does not fit into the evolutionary model.....it is definitely “in the eye of the beholder”.....and we have to appreciate that the eye is the gateway to all beauty, and a marvel of creation all by itself......but without a brain to process what the eyes see, what would be the benefit?
We can say the same for all our senses....we see design in every corner of creation appealing to the senses....but needing to be processed by the supercomputer in our head....whether its a sight, a sound, an aroma, a taste or a touch, without our brain driving our body and interpreting the sensations coming from our senses, what would life be? Did this all happen by accident?

Only humans appreciate beauty for its own sake. Who can look at those images and see blind chance at work? Not me....

 

[Deeje]

I am not sure if "God has a point creating all this beauty"
The moment people start having a "point" when doing their stuff
It usually is the point when things get worse

Having a point to our existence is a large part of our appreciation of what role we have here. The Bible gives us a reason for why we humans are unique in a world of so much sentient life. We are the appointed caretakers of this planet, given unique qualities and abilities that equip us for that role.....unfortunately, we have fallen down on the job by thinking that we can do this without the Creator’s guidance.....sadly, we have made a proper hash of it. Only God can fix it now....and according to our scripture, it wont be too much longer.....

 

[Deeje]

I don't think there is anyone here who thinks it just "pop[ped] into existence."

I believe you are building a straw man.

That aside, those are some beautiful pictures you posted.

Anyone who can “see” creation with their eyes open, will see that none of this is a product of blind chance. In their haste to eliminate all mention of an intelligent and powerful Creator, they have acquired a “blindness” that defies logic IMO. Science "believes" that life itself "popped" into existence one day for no apparent reason, and over time, miraculously transformed microscopic amoebas into creatures the size of a three story building....but they do not have a shred of real evidence that it ever happened outside of their imagination.

Somehow, the one who created what science studies became unacceptable to them and they chose to accept one of the processes programmed into creation (adaptation, which is only ever observed within a single family of organisms) to explain the whole process. The trouble is, that it requires just as much “faith and belief” to promote this “scientific” theory because there is absolutely no proof that it ever took place. It is simply one belief system replacing another. People will choose what they want to believe, based on their own leanings IMO.

We never see animals appreciating beauty for its own sake....that appears to be a uniquely human characteristic. We will travel miles to observe a vista....animals, marine creatures, and birds will travel miles to procure food or to follow migratory programming....instinct drives them with little or no reasoning needed.

Or we see the males in many bird species vying for female attention by bright and sometimes mesmerizing displays in order to perpetuate their species...yet in others it is driven hormonally and individually and only within their own species.

So from my perspective, I see no logical explanation for material creation (regardless of how science wants to explain it) that would eliminate the ultimate Scientist....the Creator and amazing constructor of all matter. Even the laws that govern how it all works, had to have been put in place by a highly intelligent “first cause”.

I see nowhere in the Bible that argues with what science “knows”......the chasm is seen in what science “believes” as opposed to what religion “believes”.....both can be wrong, and God is still there.....not really understood by either one.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Anyone who can “see” creation with their eyes open, will see that none of this is a product of blind chance. In their haste to eliminate all mention of an intelligent and powerful Creator, they have acquired a “blindness” that defies logic IMO. Science "believes" that life itself "popped" into existence one day for no apparent reason, and over time, miraculously transformed microscopic amoebas into creatures the size of a three story building....but they do not have a shred of real evidence that it ever happened outside of their imagination.

Somehow, the one who created what science studies became unacceptable to them and they chose to accept one of the processes programmed into creation (adaptation, which is only ever observed within a single family of organisms) to explain the whole process. The trouble is, that it requires just as much “faith and belief” to promote this “scientific” theory because there is absolutely no proof that it ever took place. It is simply one belief system replacing another. People will choose what they want to believe, based on their own leanings IMO.

We never see animals appreciating beauty for its own sake....that appears to be a uniquely human characteristic. We will travel miles to observe a vista....animals, marine creatures, and birds will travel miles to procure food or to follow migratory programming....instinct drives them with little or no reasoning needed.

Or we see the males in many bird species vying for female attention by bright and sometimes mesmerizing displays in order to perpetuate their species...yet in others it is driven hormonally and individually and only within their own species.

So from my perspective, I see no logical explanation for material creation (regardless of how science wants to explain it) that would eliminate the ultimate Scientist....the Creator and amazing constructor of all matter. Even the laws that govern how it all works, had to have been put in place by a highly intelligent “first cause”.

I see nowhere in the Bible that argues with what science “knows”......the chasm is seen in what science “believes” as opposed to what religion “believes”.....both can be wrong, and God is still there.....not really understood by either one.

I have no inclination to get into an EvC debate with you. Evolution is a reality. Stating that it's a theory that based on "faith and belief" that requires promoting only demonstrates that you don't have an understanding of what scientific theory means or that you do know and simply deny that you do in favor of a belief.

And this is not my opinion.

While I will have your back on your right to believe what you will every day of the week and twice on Sunday, I take exception to your passing such beliefs off to others as a universal truth and trampling upon the views and understandings of others.

 

[Deeje]

I have no inclination to get into an EvC debate with you. Evolution is a reality. Stating that it's a theory that based on "faith and belief" that requires promoting only demonstrates that you don't have an understanding of what scientific theory means or that you do know and simply deny that you do in favor of a belief.

Oh, but I do understand what a "scientific theory" is.....and that is why I have taken the position that I have. When I asked for the evidence for macro-evolution, I found that it was as much in the realms of "I believe" as my own faith is. Nothing was presented that actually proved that it ever took place. Like the Bible, science relies on interpretation. Bias inevitably creeps in.

And seeing as how this thread is in General Religious Debates, expressing an opinion on how I believe the existence of creation occurred, I was not trying to tell you what to believe but expressing what I believe and the reasons for it. I did mention that this was "my perspective"...did I not?

And this is not my opinion.

It wouldn't matter if it was....it doesn't make your beliefs any more valid than mine. God has never counted on popular opinion......in fact, just the opposite.

While I will have your back on your right to believe what you will every day of the week and twice on Sunday, I take exception to your passing such beliefs off to others as a universal truth and trampling upon the views and understandings of others.

I pass them off as MY universal truth.....sorry if that offends you.... If what I believe is nonsense, then what do you have to worry about? Let the readers make up their own minds.

 

[rational experiences]

The see.

A human first sees before they think.

The universe gases stars planets suns seen. First is observation.

Second is human egotism to think upon what is seen.

The see the holy state.

Science to think says from space universe came out life.

I see it as light gases burning in a vacuum above my head.

I don't need to think I own self already.

Then an egotist says I will tell you how you own form.

I own form not by universe but by human sex.

No he says your first two human parents.

The same as you brother your first two human parents.

I was told to be grateful to their lives.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I pass them off as MY universal truth.....sorry if that offends you....

*smiles* If you think you have the ability to offend me, you know me less than you know about scientific theory.

But I digress. You did say in a previous post...

Did all of this wonder just pop into existence with no intelligent direction....
I believe it is unintelligent to think so....

Stating that other people lack intelligence because of their views, whether it's a belief or not, is unnecessarily rude. Your beliefs give you no license to insult others because you don't agree with their views or understandings, regardless of the venue.

 

[rational experiences]

I have no inclination to get into an EvC debate with you. Evolution is a reality. Stating that it's a theory that based on "faith and belief" that requires promoting only demonstrates that you don't have an understanding of what scientific theory means or that you do know and simply deny that you do in favor of a belief.

And this is not my opinion.

While I will have your back on your right to believe what you will every day of the week and twice on Sunday, I take exception to your passing such beliefs off to others as a universal truth and trampling upon the views and understandings of others.

Scientific theory.

Human living equal self to all other humans

Looks and sees what I do all origins

Then you preach about what it isn't.

Not formed in science thesis is destroyed converted removed. As you did not theory for creation you theoried for human science to remove creation to own invention and powers.

Which is human lying.

If humans as first humans were living about a million years ago. Science said they had human sex. Human life continued by babies they died.

Decomposing they left life as cells of bacteria.

What science claims today as awAre conscious human uses information first natural. Tried to claim we came from a human bacterial death actually.

As you are human.
You are conscious.
You use memory of first human parent advice the same as any human baby to adult.

And you lied.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe God didn't have a choice.
For me, I accept I have no knowledge about God. How God works. Whether God cares. Seems a lot of necessary assumptions go into being appreciative.

I see no assumptions are needed.

That is life though, we have a choices in Faith, or choices not based in faith.

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

*smiles* If you think you have the ability to offend me, you know me less than you know about scientific theory.

Of course...everyone knows that a "scientific" theory is.....well...."scientific" and that must make it true....even if you have no real proof. Regardless of what they say, their theory relies on interpretation of "evidence" and belief that something that supposedly took place billions of years ago (when no one was around to document the process) can be known with any accuracy. Do you know how many times the words "might have" or "could have" or "leads us to the conclusion that..." are used with regard to the evolutionary process? Are these the words one uses for established facts? Or is this best guessing?

I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to offend you.....I was genuinely sorry that my personal opinion seemed to offend you. I was merely expressing my Universal Truth.....I acknowledge that it might not be everyone's.

When people get defensive over someone's opinion, that is something that I find rather difficult to understand....where I live people are free to speak their minds, and no one really takes themselves that seriously.....trying to tip-toe around other people's insecurities and sensibilities is a bit tiresome, especially on a debate sight.

I'll admit it....I don't do it well.

Stating that other people lack intelligence because of their views, whether it's a belief or not, is unnecessarily rude. Your beliefs give you no license to insult others because you don't agree with their views or understandings, regardless of the venue.

Since when is debating designed NOT to ruffle people's feathers? The mere fact that people are debating is reason enough to get their toes stepped on. If they are easily offended, the logical thing to do is stay off debate sites....it is not insulting to tell it like it is, in your own opinion...after all what is an opinion worth?.....didn't you just state your opinion? Are you being rude? Are you accusing me of something you just did yourself?

You can believe whatever you wish, but you behave like my words will somehow derail a person's thinking and make them believe that evolution is a load of rubbish....wow!.....they might even come to believe in an Intelligent Creator.....heaven forbid!

 

[rational experiences]

An intelligent creator?

Reasoning human.

Past space conditions hot dense mass burning consuming.

Humans living. Balanced. Spiritual. Loving get atmospheric attacked UFO and phenomena witnessed multi times.

Intelligent spiritual creator?

No.

Question. I am taught to respect my parents be spiritual.

Memories recorded in heavens of lived life whilst living

Spiritual parents. Loving unconditionally.

Memories state we preowned a eternal spirit whose body of spirit transformed into a human.

All bodies were a self pre owned spirit manifested into owned body type form.

Loving.

What changed us.

A radiating atmosphere.

Nature spirit higher irradiated can't express its radiating anger chemistry.

Animals do. Yet they can love.

Humans get irradiated get very angry

Proof of fact. Seen.

God was never our father. Father was the spiritual conscious memory a human.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to offend you.....I was genuinely sorry that my personal opinion seemed to offend you. I was merely expressing my Universal Truth.....I acknowledge that it might not be everyone's.

When people get defensive over someone's opinion, that is something that I find rather difficult to understand....where I live people are free to speak their minds, and no one really takes themselves that seriously.....trying to tip-toe around other people's insecurities and sensibilities is a bit tiresome, especially on a debate sight.

I'll admit it....I don't do it well.

Which opinion are we talking about here? Your opinion on creation or your opinion that people who find the ToE to be true are unintelligent?

Because, as previously stated, it's the latter that I take exception to.

Since when is debating designed NOT to ruffle people's feathers? The mere fact that people are debating is reason enough to get their toes stepped on. If they are easily offended, the logical thing to do is stay off debate sites....it is not insulting to tell it like it is, in your own opinion...after all what is an opinion worth?.....didn't you just state your opinion? Are you being rude? Are you accusing me of something you just did yourself?

Debates are to critique and argue ideas, not attack people. Calling people unintelligent clearly falls under the latter.

You can believe whatever you wish, but you behave like my words will somehow derail a person's thinking and make them believe that evolution is a load of rubbish....wow!.....they might even come to believe in an Intelligent Creator.....heaven forbid!

Red herring. Again, this has nothing to do with your beliefs on creation.

I've made my point several times over, but you seem to adamant in making what I said an attack on your beliefs, which I've said multiple times that it is not.

I'll leave you with this question to ask yourself: Would your God be proud of you for insulting others to convince them he is the Creator?

 

[Deeje]

I'll leave you with this question to ask yourself: Would your God be proud of you for insulting others to convince them he is the Creator?

Oh please....guilt tripping now? Sorry that never works on me....ask my mother.

Go back to my first post here....the pictures were the contrast.....anyone who thinks that these creatures can be the product of blind chance are to me, demonstrating a complete lack of intelligence......in my opinion.

That would be tantamount to posting pictures of a large fully furnished house with plumbing, electricity, carpeting, air conditioning, a fully stocked pantry and beautiful landscaped gardens and then claiming that no one built it, or furnished it, and the power, the air con, plumbing, carpeting and food all just appeared by themselves. How intelligent would I be to claim something like that? I see creation the same way....where there is purposeful design, it requires an intelligent designer. Anything designed for a purpose must of necessity have a designer. Purpose indicates intent and intent requires planning.....planning requires intelligence with forethought and imagination. Blind chance could never produce those things. That is how I see things.
You don’t have to agree....

 

[SalixIncendium]

Go back to my first post here....the pictures were the contrast.....anyone who thinks that these creatures can be the product of blind chance are to me, demonstrating a complete lack of intelligence......in my opinion.

And that's what's problematic. Rather than just offering an opinion that they're wrong, you chose to attack their character by insulting their intelligence.

Whether or not it's your opinion is irrelevant here. Making such a statement is rude and uncivil.

And I complimented you on those pictures.

 

[firedragon]

Umm... Yeah I guess.
Being conscious, being alive is a pretty cool experience.

But, was it given as in there was a choice to give or not to give?

Should we appreciate what has been "given" to us if there was no actual choice made to give us anything?

Maybe we just happen to exist because that is the mechanics of the universe.

If we ever find out that some entity made a choice to create those mechanics, sure, I'll tell them thanks.

Until then I don't see a reason that my appreciation needs to go beyond the appreciation of life itself, for what it is.

The Buddha would say Dukka aryasaccha. Suffering is noble truth. Samsare bhawe dhukaa.

So there is no point celebrating life I suppose but to seek the truth. According to Buddhism. If you celebrate life too much too, that is a an attachment, and is not the truth you should be seeking.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am trying to change my mindset to one of gratefulness towards the Cosmos as a whole and the Gods as its upholders, for the gift of life, existence and all the wonderful things I can experience. I have been very bitter and resentful lately due to circumstances but that mentality is a poison all its own and I'm trying to be more positive about things.

 

[Deeje]

And that's what's problematic. Rather than just offering an opinion that they're wrong, you chose to attack their character by insulting their intelligence.

Whether or not it's your opinion is irrelevant here. Making such a statement is rude and uncivil.

And still you go on.....

By contrasting the images with the notion that these could somehow all be fortunate flukes with no intelligent direction in their design or creation is to me a “no brainer”. I spoke my mind and I don't believe I did it in an uncivil way.....I said that “to me” it showed lack of intelligence and I illustrated why I felt that way.....opinions are opinions.....the "offense" factor has created the "snowflake" syndrome we see pervading the western world today where hurt feelings are now somehow an indictable offence. Good grief...when do we demonstrate some backbone and realize that people aren't always going to tell us what we want to hear? Hasn’t political correctness gone mad enough already?

People can disagree strongly and say things that aren't always acceptable to us....but if that is their opinion, then they are entitled to express it. Isn’t that what free speech is all about? Why should we get the vapors and have a hissy-fit over one person’s opinion? Shouldn’t we just let it be water off a duck's back? Is the response demonstrating intelligence rather than emotion? Seriously....you have created a conflict here that should never have come up. Was your own intelligence challenged by what I said? If so ask yourself why?
Did I insult your intelligence personally?
I am so used to being on the other end of this issue, it never occurred to me that any science buff could possibly take umbrage at anything I said concerning evolution..... I take that as a compliment actually.

We have derailed this thread enough now.....

 

[rational experiences]

Oh please....guilt tripping now? Sorry that never works on me....ask my mother.

Go back to my first post here....the pictures were the contrast.....anyone who thinks that these creatures can be the product of blind chance are to me, demonstrating a complete lack of intelligence......in my opinion.

That would be tantamount to posting pictures of a large fully furnished house with plumbing, electricity, carpeting, air conditioning, a fully stocked pantry and beautiful landscaped gardens and then claiming that no one built it, or furnished it, and the power, the air con, plumbing, carpeting and food all just appeared by themselves. How intelligent would I be to claim something like that? I see creation the same way....where there is purposeful design, it requires an intelligent designer. Anything designed for a purpose must of necessity have a designer. Purpose indicates intent and intent requires planning.....planning requires intelligence with forethought and imagination. Blind chance could never produce those things. That is how I see things.
You don’t have to agree....

The human saying it says I create design invent a machine only.

I look at the inside of a human and apply my human reasoning to identify functions in medical sciences to see if I can heal it.

Occult science looking also does the same reasoning yet not own that reasoning so you lie.

A human is SEEN as a whole completed self first. Not as one DNA abstraction.

Science I abstracted DNA from a living whole human.

Science machine cause designed....so did machine conditions abstract DNA from the human body.

Why human science is a liar.

We didn't come designed from a motivated designer.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

*smiles* If you think you have the ability to offend me, you know me less than you know about scientific theory.

Don’t you think that is an attack, highlighting what you think is her supposed ignorance? She didn’t address anyone in particular, did she? Now...did you?

I am not sure if "God has a point creating all this beauty"
The moment people start having a "point" when doing their stuff
It usually is the point when things get worse

God is described in Hindu Scriptures as Sathyam-Shivam-Sundaram = Truth-Godliness-Beauty

So, I believe, as God is described as "Beauty", it's natural that Beauty comes out (is expressed)

The oringinal point, i.e., purpose...and still is....is for His intelligent creation, both angels and humans, to enjoy it. To arouse our wonder, curiosity and desire to discover & explore. To use our reasoning & try to figure out how things work. He succeeded.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Don’t you think that is an attack, highlighting what you think is her supposed ignorance?

What I think? Did you read the thread? I was making an observation, specifically with how "scientific theory" was being defined.

What was posted was based on many assumptions. Like the assumption I was offended. Because I take exception to a person attacking a group of people doesn't mean I was offended.

And let me be clear that if the shoe was on the other foot, and a person implied that JWs were less intelligent for their worldview, I would be the first to jump to the defense of JWs.

She didn’t address anyone in particular, did she? Now...did you?

How is this at all relevant? If one attacks a group of people instead of a specific person from that group, does that somehow soften the attack?