• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do Messianic Christians in general believe in YHVH the One and Only God or in the Trinity?

W3bcrowf3r

Active Member
I am an Arab, and i try to uphold the Tora and the Gospel as well besides the Quran. I believe in Yehovah the Father being the one and only God and that there is no deity besides Hes.

What about the majority of Messianic Christians? Do they believe that Yehovah is the one and only God? Or do they believe the Catholic Trinitarian doctrines, which have no bases in the original Greek and Hebrew Bible?

Asking because i am preparing myself to be baptized and i prefer someone who is a Monotheist.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I am an Arab, and i try to uphold the Tora and the Gospel as well besides the Quran. I believe in Yehovah the Father being the one and only God and that there is no deity besides Hes.

What about the majority of Messianic Christians? Do they believe that Yehovah is the one and only God? Or do they believe the Catholic Trinitarian doctrines, which have no bases in the original Greek and Hebrew Bible?

Asking because i am preparing myself to be baptized and i prefer someone who is a Monotheist.


There are about 5 Christian denominations that are Non-trinitarian. I read the Bible and have formed my own opinion. If you listen to the educated and programmed elite religious leaders... Just remember that you are judged for YOUR actions. Your use of the word Yehovah triggers a warning for me.
 

W3bcrowf3r

Active Member
Watch out for your opinion. Learn Greek if you really want to form a solid opinion.

All the translations are made by the sectarians. So you are actually reading what they want you to read.

Learn the languages if you want to know the details.

So whats your current opinion?

Why does the name Yehovah trigger you? The Bible has thousands of places where Hes name is mentioned?
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
There is no deity in Hebrew scripture with the name Yehovah.

I'm leaving my reply, but apologies for posting in this DIR.


Please do not apologize for posting here? I am convinced that it does no harm and probably a lot of good. Shalom
 

W3bcrowf3r

Active Member
There is no deity in Hebrew scripture with the name Yehovah.

I'm leaving my reply, but apologies for posting in this DIR.

I am still learning Hebrew as an Arab to read the original Tora.

What do you think is the right usages of the vowels?

Is it Yahveh then?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I am still learning Hebrew as an Arab to read the original Tora.

What do you think is the right usages of the vowels?

Is it Yahveh then?
Whatever is in common usage, and will not cause confusion.
I prefer Jehovah. (I also call Jesus, “Jesus”, not ‘Yehoshua.’)
Of course, I’m one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, so I lean that way, but the reasons I posted make sense.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I btw believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and not the Father. And that only the Father YHVH is God.
I do, too. So do all Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Watch out for Jehovah Witnesses.

Too late.

You take Hell, literally? Why?
Jacob said he was going there. Job prayed to go there.
Even Jesus was there, temporarily! ( Psalms 16:10, words of David, applied to Jesus at Acts of the Apostles 2:24-31)

If you know Greek, then you also know that in Matthew 18, where Jesus spoke of the fire, he didn’t mention Hades (Hell), but rather, used the Greek Word translated “Gehenna”.

And why take that fire, literally? The account says “..the maggot does not die...”; are maggots given immortal life then? It’s not literal.

Another line of reasoning: in Revelation 20:13-14, it mentions “death is thrown/hurled into the Lake of Fire.” Is death something that can be burned? No. But it will be gone forever, which is what Revelation 21:4 says: it will be “no more”.

Besides, burning a creature forever, is something a malevolent god would allow....our God is a loving God, right?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
***Mod: Members please cease posting in Dir areas that are not yours. This is what allows us to keep multiple religions on one site. If a person wants feedback from multiple religions they may ask in the Religious Q&A section. Also, using a Dir to warn against another Dir is also against rule 10.***


10. Debating in Non-debate Forums or Posting in DIR/ONLY Forums
Religious forums is structured to provide spaces for many different kinds of conversations. Different kinds of conversations belong in different areas of the forum:

1) Debates should be kept to the debate areas of the forums, including Religious Debates, General Debates, and Political Debates. Debating anywhere other than these forums may result in moderation. Same Faith Debates is governed by special rules described here. Only members of the specified groups(s) can participate in these threads.

2) All DIR (Discuss Individual Religions) forums are for the use of members who identify with those groups or practices. Debating is not permitted in DIRs; debates between members of specified groups should be posted in Same Faith Debates. Members who do not identify with a DIR group may only post respectful questions; we recommend creating a thread in the Religions Q&A instead where there is more freedom to comment. DIR forums are not to be used as a cover to bash others outside of the DIR group.

3) The Political World forum has several "only" subforums that are for the use of members who identify with those political leanings. Members who do not identify with those political leanings are not allowed to post there. The staff more strictly moderate Rule 10 violations where there is some other rule violation involved, such as preaching in a DIR or trolling a political forum a member doesn't belong to. More benign violations may be subject to informal reminders or moving threads to the appropriate location.

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
***Mod: Members please cease posting in Dir areas that are not yours. This is what allows us to keep multiple religions on one site. If a person wants feedback from multiple religions they may ask in the Religious Q&A section. Also, using a Dir to warn against another Dir is also against rule 10.***

Sorry. :(
 

RAFFI SWEENEY

Holiness Unto Yahuah!
There are MANY leaders and groups within the Messianic Hebrew Roots Movement that do not believe in the Trinity. I myself am a member of that movement, part of the sub-group known as "Nazarene Israelite", and I can tell you that there are a lot that are not only NON-Trinitarian, but also adhere to a strict understanding of the radical monotheistic unity of The Creator (which rules out the "Deity of Yeshua the Messiah"). Some of these people are quiet about their opinion because the MAJORITY of the movement IS in fact still very Evangelical in their theology regarding this matter, but there is a growing vocal segment of Pure Oneness Hebraics, especially among the Nazarene Israelite subset. As such, there is a closer theological affinity with traditional Judaism, Karaism, Islam, and Baha'i than there is to traditional Catholicism, Protestantism, and Evangelicalism among these people. Many of them also post on online forums and YouTube channels and the such.
 

RAFFI SWEENEY

Holiness Unto Yahuah!
I myself am a member of a non-trinitarian Nazarene Israelite group of Messianics in Orlando, Florida.
BTW, to the post above, we use the tri-syllabic pronunciation of the four letters of The Name. Similar to "Jehovah", but recognizing that neither the "J"-sound nor the "V"-sound existed in Biblical Hebrew, our pronunciation comes out more like "Yahowah", "Yahuwah", or as I tend to write It, "Yahuah", with the accent on the back syllable according to Hebrew grammar.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I myself am a member of a non-trinitarian Nazarene Israelite group of Messianics in Orlando, Florida.
BTW, to the post above, we use the tri-syllabic pronunciation of the four letters of The Name. Similar to "Jehovah", but recognizing that neither the "J"-sound nor the "V"-sound existed in Biblical Hebrew, our pronunciation comes out more like "Yahowah", "Yahuwah", or as I tend to write It, "Yahuah", with the accent on the back syllable according to Hebrew grammar.
Interesting, so Hebrew has word-final stress?

Also, is there a reason you don't go with a solution more like "Yahweh" or "Yahuweh"? I know there's a lot of back-and-forth on how the Tetragrammaton is supposed to be pronounced.
 

RAFFI SWEENEY

Holiness Unto Yahuah!
There are TONS of arguments about the way these four Hebrew letters should be pronounced. There is a very long and complex grammar and history to the whole thing not worth going into here. Suffice it to say that most English-speakers tend to pronounce the Name as "Jehovah" based on the Latinized version of the letters. But even in the English, even as late as the 1611 King James Version, the pronunciation of the "J"-sound was still not fully distinguished from the "I"-sound from which the written English letter evolved, so even in English the Name was pronounced more like "Iahovah" for centuries. But it was mostly on the research of a Christian Hebrew-Greek scholar named Wilhelm Gesinius who lived 1786-1842, that a new pronunciation was offered - "Yahweh", and THAT pronuciation (called the bisyllabic pronunciation) began to become popular. Every body knew that ancient Hebrew did not pronounce the "J"-sound or the "V"-sound, so Gesinius gave his best educated guess to the pronunciation as "Yahweh". Today, even Jehovah's Witnesses will readily admit that in Hebrew it is not pronounced "Jehovah", but that THAT is a uniquely English pronunciation. They do not think it really matters for Salvation, though, HOW exactly you pronounce the letters. Any way, so the two most common ways you hear today are either "Jehovah" (as the English pronunciation), or "Yahweh" proposed by Gesinius as his best Hebrew pronunciation. But there is another view which is based on the idea that a Hebrew word of four letters such as this should be properly pronounced with three syllables. And YES, most Hebrew words do put the accent on the final syllable rather than the first or middle syllable. I have been drawn deep into this debate with people before on other forums, and I do not think it is worth getting into a debate about it again. But, more and more people ARE seeing the logic of a tri-syllabic pronunciation to The Name. Some DO say "YahuWEH", but the Hebrew root word that this part of The Name is based on is "hawah", which means "to come to be". The first part of The Name, of course, is Yahu (as attested throughout The Bible in many theophoric names). So, the compound form of YAHU and HAWAH is generally abbreviated as "YAHUWAH", which in Hebrew would mean, "Yah who causes to come to be", speaking of YAH as the Creator of all things. Some people write it out in English as YAHUWAH, just like that. But since this kind of spelling uses the "U" and the "W", which in Hebrew is the same letter, I think it is redundant to write both letters, so I generally spell it as YAHUAH, but it is pronounced exactly the same. I do not know any person who speaks fluent Hebrew who says that the pronunciation YAHUWEH means anything at all.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
There are MANY leaders and groups within the Messianic Hebrew Roots Movement that do not believe in the Trinity. I myself am a member of that movement, part of the sub-group known as "Nazarene Israelite", and I can tell you that there are a lot that are not only NON-Trinitarian, but also adhere to a strict understanding of the radical monotheistic unity of The Creator (which rules out the "Deity of Yeshua the Messiah"). Some of these people are quiet about their opinion because the MAJORITY of the movement IS in fact still very Evangelical in their theology regarding this matter, but there is a growing vocal segment of Pure Oneness Hebraics, especially among the Nazarene Israelite subset. As such, there is a closer theological affinity with traditional Judaism, Karaism, Islam, and Baha'i than there is to traditional Catholicism, Protestantism, and Evangelicalism among these people. Many of them also post on online forums and YouTube channels and the such.


All the Messianic Jews I know are Trinitarian

How might you take the last verse in John 17?
“And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

How could Jesus say he would be 'in them' if he wasn't someone divine?
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Are you under the impression that Mr. Sweeney is a Messianic Jew?

I hope this qualifies as a respectful question.

I don't know him well enough to say

I do agree that the vowels of YHWH germanized to JHVH then aglisized with the vowels of AdOnAih probably made for the usage Jahovah and something like Yahweh is closer to the original

I wonder if when Jesus said he made known the Father's name it was bigger than nitpicking about a pronunciation and perhaps making known your name might include making known his attributes and knowing what the father (and son) were really like might be the main issue. Attributes like father, love and even wrath have more clarity in the new testament although they were in the older testament.
 
Last edited:

RAFFI SWEENEY

Holiness Unto Yahuah!
I am a Messianic, but not a Messianic Jew. I am, as I said, a member of a Hebraic congregation. Part of the Hebrew Roots Movement. You have not heard of the Hebrew Roots Movement? That is rather surprising. It is a Messianic movement among Christian people, predominantly from within Pentecostal and Charismatic circles. You can google it. It is a very massive movement, worldwide. Hundreds of qualified teachers and leaders within the movement. Over five or six main "camps" within it. Been around since the 1990s. I am part of the Nazarene Israelite camp, to be specific. And although the movement started out principally among trinitarians, over the decades there have arisen non-trinitarian leaders within the movement, mostly from within other Nazarene Israelite groups. I belong to a non-trinitarian Nazarene Israelite camp.

So, any way, I was just trying to let the guy who put up the original post know that there ARE non-trinitarian Messianics out there. MJAA and UMJC are confessionally trinitarian, but they are specifically Messianic Jewish, not Hebrew Root. So if you limit "Messianic" to referring only to the main organized JEWISH groups, you are right to say you have not met any non-trinitarian messianics. But of those who identify as Messianic beyond UMJC and MJAA, and particularly among Messianic Hebraics, there are MANY alternative views. Most Nazarene Israelites, for example, are "binitarian", but a growing number of us are Father-Only Oneness believers.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
I am a Messianic, but not a Messianic Jew. I am, as I said, a member of a Hebraic congregation. Part of the Hebrew Roots Movement. You have not heard of the Hebrew Roots Movement? That is rather surprising. It is a Messianic movement among Christian people, predominantly from within Pentecostal and Charismatic circles. You can google it. It is a very massive movement, worldwide. Hundreds of qualified teachers and leaders within the movement. Over five or six main "camps" within it. Been around since the 1990s. I am part of the Nazarene Israelite camp, to be specific. And although the movement started out principally among trinitarians, over the decades there have arisen non-trinitarian leaders within the movement, mostly from within other Nazarene Israelite groups. I belong to a non-trinitarian Nazarene Israelite camp.

So, any way, I was just trying to let the guy who put up the original post know that there ARE non-trinitarian Messianics out there. MJAA and UMJC are confessionally trinitarian, but they are specifically Messianic Jewish, not Hebrew Root. So if you limit "Messianic" to referring only to the main organized JEWISH groups, you are right to say you have not met any non-trinitarian messianics. But of those who identify as Messianic beyond UMJC and MJAA, and particularly among Messianic Hebraics, there are MANY alternative views. Most Nazarene Israelites, for example, are "binitarian", but a growing number of us are Father-Only Oneness believers.

So, Sybellian oneness trinity - God is 1 person who shows himself various ways not Athanasian trinity - God is one in essence and 3 in persons ?

Why would Jesus pray to the father ? isn't that a reason to go with the Athanasian trinity?

Jesus said the holy spirit was 'another' and the father and the son were both witnesses plural to him/ I'm not persuaded oneness is the right way to look at the Trinity.

In the athanasian trining there is love and majesty from eternity past
 
Top