Do liberals and atheists honestly think Hitler represents Christianity?

[TagliatelliMonster]

I understand what you are saying.. There's this idea that Hitler can't be a Christian because Christians can't do evil things. People make the same argument for Muslims.

I would say ISIS has b*stardized Islam... so I don't see how Hitler could have been a Christians, but there are enough genocides in the Bible to support your conviction.

This is pretty interesting.

For a man whom history can never forget, Adolf Hitler remains a persistent mystery on one front—his religious faith.
Atheists tend to insist Hitler was a devout Christian. Christians counter that he was an atheist. And still others suggest that he was a practicing member of the occult.

None of these theories are true, says historian Richard Weikart.
Delving more deeply into the question of Hitler’s religious faith than any researcher to date, Weikart reveals the startling and fascinating truth about the most hated man of the 20th century: Adolf Hitler was a pantheist who believed nature was God.

In Hitler’s Religion, Weikart explains how the laws of nature became Hitler’s only moral guide—how he became convinced he would serve God by annihilating supposedly “inferior” human beings and promoting the welfare and reproduction of the allegedly superior Aryans in accordance with racist forms of Darwinism prevalent at the time.

Hitler's Religion - Regnery Publishing

Whatever religious beliefs he personally identified with - why does it matter anyway?
The guy was a nutjob, regardless of his religious beliefs.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why would a man who it is claimed was anti religious have his own bishop, praise god, ensure his troops were blessed by a priest before every engagement and have "got mit uns" as the military motto?

Let's play advocate of the devil for a second.

If *I* were in Hitler's place and *I* would design some evil masterplan to take over the world while being an atheist / anti-theist / whatever.... I'ld most definatly be exploiting whatever I can if it can help keeping people in line and / or comfortable to do my bidding.

If making them believe that "god is with us" will ensure them carrying out my orders without questioning, then I'ld most definatly be taking advantage of that.

 

[ChristineM]

Let's play advocate of the devil for a second.

If *I* were in Hitler's place and *I* would design some evil masterplan to take over the world while being an atheist / anti-theist / whatever.... I'ld most definatly be exploiting whatever I can if it can help keeping people in line and / or comfortable to do my bidding.

If making them believe that "god is with us" will ensure them carrying out my orders without questioning, then I'ld most definatly be taking advantage of that.

But you are not hitler.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But you are not hitler.

That's why I said "if I was Hitler...".

Why wouldn't you take advantage of such things if it means that it will help you accomplish your goals - especially if you are an evil manipulative psychopath anyway?

Surely it isn't difficult to imagine...
It wouldn't have been the first time someone exploited / manipulated people in such a manner, nore will it be the last either.

It is, in fact, a very common populist tactic. Tell the people what they want to hear and they'll side with you...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Let's play advocate of the devil for a second.

If *I* were in Hitler's place and *I* would design some evil masterplan to take over the world while being an atheist / anti-theist / whatever.... I'ld most definatly be exploiting whatever I can if it can help keeping people in line and / or comfortable to do my bidding.

If making them believe that "god is with us" will ensure them carrying out my orders without questioning, then I'ld most definatly be taking advantage of that.

... and you wouldn't be able to get those people to believe you unless your evil master plan was compatible with their religion.

 

[ChristineM]

That's why I said "if I was Hitler...".

Why wouldn't you take advantage of such things if it means that it will help you accomplish your goals - especially if you are an evil manipulative psychopath anyway?

Surely it isn't difficult to imagine...
It wouldn't have been the first time someone exploited / manipulated people in such a manner, nore will it be the last either.

It is, in fact, a very common populist tactic. Tell the people what they want to hear and they'll side with you...

I dont need to imagine, hitlers faith is well documented no matter how american "historians" try to obfuscate.

Sure he used it to his advantage, that doesnt mean he had no faith

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Whatever Hitler's personal religious beliefs, he still:

- incorporated Christian thought from prominent Christian religious leaders (e.g. Martin Luther)
- paid at least lip-service to Christianity
- crafted Naziism to be acceptable to his base, who were mostly German Christians

That's called being pragmatic. He believed that Nazism would supplant Christianity in Germany and that Christianity was nonsense that weakened a people. He supported Darwinian scientism (or a pseudo-scientific version of it). Most of the Nazi higher ups hated Christianity and some were trying to revive Germanic religion. I can't really think of any of the most influential Nazis who committed Christians.

So Nazism is plainly anti-Christian. There were fascist movements that were Christian, though. Most were, actually. National Socialism is a very extreme outlier.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's called being pragmatic.

Pragmatically aligning Naziism with Christianity, yes.

He believed that Nazism would supplant Christianity in Germany and that Christianity was nonsense that weakened a people.

He supported Darwinian scientism (or a pseudo-scientific version of it).

Well, no. The idea of eugenics - that human beings need to intervene to make humanity "fit" - is diametrically opposed to Darwinism - the idea that species increase in fitness over time without any intervention.

Most of the Nazi higher ups hated Christianity and some were trying to revive Germanic religion. I can't really think of any of the most influential Nazis who committed Christians.

That's why Christian books were handed out at Nazi rallies, right?

So Nazism is plainly anti-Christian. There were fascist movements that were Christian, though. Most were, actually. National Socialism is a very extreme outlier.

Hitler put Luther's ideas into action. If Hitler is anti-Christian, then so is Luther.

I think it would be a bit ridiculous to dismiss the founder of the second-largest branch of Christianity as anti-Christian.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Pragmatically aligning Naziism with Christianity, yes.





Well, no. The idea of eugenics - that human beings need to intervene to make humanity "fit" - is diametrically opposed to Darwinism - the idea that species increase in fitness over time without any intervention.


That's why Christian books were handed out at Nazi rallies, right?


Hitler put Luther's ideas into action. If Hitler is anti-Christian, then so is Luther.

I think it would be a bit ridiculous to dismiss the founder of the second-largest branch of Christianity as anti-Christian.

No, trying not to be too obvious about the war against Christianity is what they were being pragmatic about (although they persecuted the churches and took steps to minimize their power as institutions.

I know that Nazi eugenics isn't Darwinian in the accepted scientific sense. They believed their racial theories were scientific, though. They viewed themselves as scientific rationalists merely upholding the laws of nature.

Name one senior member of Hitler's cabinet who was a committed Christian. Rosenberg, Himmler and Goebbels all hated Christianity with a passion.

Luther had little to do with Nazi ideas about Jews. German cultural anti-Semitism had been longstanding by that time (going back before Luther) but Nazi anti-Semitism wasn't merely a religious thing. They believed that Jews were scientifically subhuman and driven by biology to act as parasites on host nations.

 

[Augustus]

Well, no. The idea of eugenics - that human beings need to intervene to make humanity "fit" - is diametrically opposed to Darwinism - the idea that species increase in fitness over time without any intervention.

That's not what people back then thought. The term eugenics was even coined by Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton.

Eugenics was commonly supported by progressive rationalists because it was deemed to be supported by the science.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Did you believe the Hitler Diary Hoax?

Believe? Nope. I do not need belief. I have **facts**. As for the bogus claim of "hoax"?

Well..... considering the links you pointed to have NO-- repeat NO credibility of ANY kind?

Well....

 

[sooda]

Believe? Nope. I do not need belief. I have **facts**. As for the bogus claim of "hoax"?

Well..... considering the links you pointed to have NO-- repeat NO credibility of ANY kind?

Well....

Whatever you choose to believe. Sometimes facts don't matter at all.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, trying not to be too obvious about the war against Christianity is what they were being pragmatic about (although they persecuted the churches and took steps to minimize their power as institutions.

They opposed churches that challenged the Nazi take on orthodoxy. As authoritarians, they fought to get churches under their control, which the churches resisted. The Nazis were perfectly fine with a Christianity that would play by its rules.

... and we can say the same about countless Christian governments and leaders throughout the ages, so I don't see how only the Nazis would be "not Christian" for doing this.

I know that Nazi eugenics isn't Darwinian in the accepted scientific sense. They believed their racial theories were scientific, though. They viewed themselves as scientific rationalists merely upholding the laws of nature.

Which, again, is contradictory on its face. The "laws of nature" need no upholding.

If something doesn't happen without intervention, then it isn't a "law of nature" that it was going to happen inevitably.

Name one senior member of Hitler's cabinet who was a committed Christian. Rosenberg, Himmler and Goebbels all hated Christianity with a passion.

Established Christianity, maybe... just like many Christian reformers. Rosenberg was instrumental in the creation of a new, "more Nazi" Christian movement:

Positive Christianity - Wikipedia

He helped to found a Christian denomination, but he "hated Christianity with a passion?" Sure.

Luther had little to do with Nazir ideas about Jews. German cultural anti-Semitism had been longstanding by that time (going back before Luther) but Nazi anti-Semitism wasn't merely a religious thing. They believed that Jews were scientifically subhuman and driven by biology to act as parasites on host nations.

You do realize that Hitler would have Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" handed out at his rallies because of the inspiration it had given him and because of how closely what Martin Luther laid out was in line with the Nazi platform, right?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Whatever you choose to believe. Sometimes facts don't matter at all.

Nope. "choose to believe" is an oxymoron. It is meaningless null-phrase.

Can you "choose" to believe you can fly, and then jump from a high place, only flapping your arms, and not crash back to earth?

And? Nope again: facts not only always matter? They are *all* that matters! Without facts you can literally believe in anything-- Exotic Green Aliens from Alpha-Centuri bring you coffee every morning...

 

[Shad]

If making them believe that "god is with us" will ensure them carrying out my orders without questioning, then I'ld most definatly be taking advantage of that.

It was a tried and true method with a history of success as well. Toss in the changes in the standard of living in Germany due to Hilter's arms build up easily could be seen as validating the claim and early war victories.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They opposed churches that challenged the Nazi take on orthodoxy. As authoritarians, they fought to get churches under their control, which the churches resisted. The Nazis were perfectly fine with a Christianity that would play by its rules.

... and we can say the same about countless Christian governments and leaders throughout the ages, so I don't see how only the Nazis would be "not Christian" for doing this.


Which, again, is contradictory on its face. The "laws of nature" need no upholding.

If something doesn't happen without intervention, then it isn't a "law of nature" that it was going to happen inevitably.


Established Christianity, maybe... just like many Christian reformers. Rosenberg was instrumental in the creation of a new, "more Nazi" Christian movement:

Positive Christianity - Wikipedia

He helped to found a Christian denomination, but he "hated Christianity with a passion?" Sure.


You do realize that Hitler would have Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" handed out at his rallies because of the inspiration it had given him and because of how closely what Martin Luther laid out was in line with the Nazi platform, right?

I'm not going to have a back and forth with you about this because I find it boring. You'll nitpick circumstantial stuff, ignoring the bigger picture, Hitler's own private statements about Christianity, the feelings of the head Nazis and how much Nazi ideology is a total 180 of Christian belief and morality. The historical consensus is that Hitler was not a Christian and that the Nazis planned to phase out Christianity among the people since it is incompatible with National Socialism. They took a more pragmatic approach for the most part so as not to turn the people off from it, while doing their best to undermine traditional Christian institutions. They had the long view in mind. The Positive Christianity project was made to lure people away from traditional Christianity into a Nazified version of it that has very little to do with Christianity. No Jewish OT, no salvation or sin, or meek and mildness, no Jewish Jesus suffering on the cross for the sins of mankind. No, that was replaced with a strong Germanic warrior Jesus who bravely fought against the Jews but was killed for it (no room for him going passively to his death in their minds). That's hardly Christian. That's just a facade.
"During World War II Rosenberg outlined the future envisioned by the Hitler government for religion in Germany, with a thirty-point program for the future of the German churches. Among its articles:

the National Reich Church of Germany would claim exclusive control over all churches
publication of the Bible would cease
crucifixes, Bibles and saints were to be removed from altars
Mein Kampf would be placed on altars as "to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book"
the Christian Cross would be removed from all churches and replaced with the swastika.[37]"
Wow, how "Christian". Rosenberg hated Christianity. He believed in a sort of Pagan religion of the blood, like Himmler did.

As for handing out copies of Luther's book, why not? It served their purposes for enflaming hatred of Jews.

Kirchenkampf - Wikipedia

 

[Faithofchristian]

I'm trying to get through the Mao and Pol Pot thread but the notion that Hitler represents over 2 billion people is stupid.

Nope not at all.
But however, Hitler did pickup on the liberal Democrats platform on slavery and used that as a means to have control over people in Germany.

Maybe watch Dinesh D'Souza
" death of nation"
As he goes into detail about how Hitler used the democrats platform of Socialism to control people.

That's what socialism is, as all anyone has to do is look back during the time of Hitler and socialism.
Another good example is Venezuela,
Look where socialism got Venezuela.
What's happening right now in Venezuela
Because of socialism

 

[sooda]

Nope not at all.
But however, Hitler did pickup on the liberal Democrats platform on slavery and used that as a means to have control over people in Germany.

Maybe watch Dinesh D'Souza
" death of nation"
As he goes into detail about how Hitler used the democrats platform of Socialism to control people.

That's what socialism is, as all anyone has to do is look back during the time of Hitler and socialism.
Another good example is Venezuela,
Look where socialism got Venezuela.
What's happening right now in Venezuela
Because of socialism

Socialism was a desperate effort to save VZ after 40 years of US approved military dictators and increasing income disparity. There was no middle class in VZ, ALL the money was concentrated among the elite circle of the president.

You might want to read the history of VZ.

 

[sooda]

The National Reich Church of Germany would claim exclusive control over all churches

publication of the Bible would cease

crucifixes, Bibles and saints were to be removed from altars

Mein Kampf would be placed on altars as "to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book"

the Christian Cross would be removed from all churches and replaced with the swastika.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I'm not going to have a back and forth with you about this because I find it boring. You'll nitpick circumstantial stuff, ignoring the bigger picture, Hitler's own private statements about Christianity, the feelings of the head Nazis and how much Nazi ideology is a total 180 of Christian belief and morality. The historical consensus is that Hitler was not a Christian and that the Nazis planned to phase out Christianity among the people since it is incompatible with National Socialism. They took a more pragmatic approach for the most part so as not to turn the people off from it, while doing their best to undermine traditional Christian institutions. They had the long view in mind. The Positive Christianity project was made to lure people away from traditional Christianity into a Nazified version of it that has very little to do with Christianity. No Jewish OT, no salvation or sin, or meek and mildness, no Jewish Jesus suffering on the cross for the sins of mankind. No, that was replaced with a strong Germanic warrior Jesus who bravely fought against the Jews but was killed for it (no room for him going passively to his death in their minds). That's hardly Christian. That's just a facade.
"During World War II Rosenberg outlined the future envisioned by the Hitler government for religion in Germany, with a thirty-point program for the future of the German churches. Among its articles:

the National Reich Church of Germany would claim exclusive control over all churches
publication of the Bible would cease
crucifixes, Bibles and saints were to be removed from altars
Mein Kampf would be placed on altars as "to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book"
the Christian Cross would be removed from all churches and replaced with the swastika.[37]"
Wow, how "Christian". Rosenberg hated Christianity. He believed in a sort of Pagan religion of the blood, like Himmler did.

As for handing out copies of Luther's book, why not? It served their purposes for enflaming hatred of Jews.

Kirchenkampf - Wikipedia

It's amazing how one person can do something, and everyone else is to blame.
For another's behavior.

I suppose when someone else does something you should also take the blame for it to right?

Hitler took the liberal Democrats platform of Socialism on how to control people and then Incorporated it into his agenda to control people

Christians had nothing to do with it.

Let's for say that its a Atheists
If one them does something then by your standards all Atheists should be blamed.

Or it's a gay person, that by your standards all gays should be blamed for what One other gay person did.

So explain exactly how this is to work.

Ho I forgot, by your standards if one person does something everyone else is the blame also.