Do liberals and atheists honestly think Hitler represents Christianity?

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm trying to get through the Mao and Pol Pot thread but the notion that Hitler represents over 2 billion people is stupid.

Hitler wasn't even a Christian. He hated Christianity.

 

[sooda]

I have never heard an atheist state that Hitler was representative of all Christians or denominations. I have heard Christians state that Hitler’s atrocities are atributable to him being an atheist. Most atheists simply state in defense that Hitler grew up as a Catholic, and he sometimes invoked the Christian god in his speeches. His storm troopers wore belt buckles with the inscription “God is with us”.
He certainly may have been a con man in some ways. But also, consider that “con man” and “Christian” are apparently not mutually exclusive terms.
You can try to invoke the “not a true Christian” crutch, but there is no way to objectively make such a discernment. Different factions in Christianity often point to other factions and claim they are not “true Christians, and use the same book to make their arguments. From the outside, one can only take the person’s word that they believe in the Christian god. There is no other reliable means of measurement.

personally, I think the jury is still out and there is no definitive answer, only educated guesses.

at any rate, you are erecting a straw man argument that I have never heard anyone use.

Hitler wasn't a Christian at all. He mocked Christians and Christianity.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

. It was Christianity that brought writing to the Slavic, Germanic and Celtic peoples.

Celtic and Germanic peoples had their own writing systems beforehand.

 

[ChristineM]

Hitler wasn't a Christian at all. He mocked Christians and Christianity.

Wrong, he was the catholic leader of a majority protestant country. He killed atheists and raised christians to power, he had the full backing of the vatican.

Compared to a modern day nonentity internet hack who never met him but is after sensationalism to boost his website hits and advertising revenue i will take the word of popes, cardinals, hitlers hitlers contemporaries and hitler himself on what his religion was.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm trying to get through the Mao and Pol Pot thread but the notion that Hitler represents over 2 billion people is stupid.

I agree it's stupid.
Probably for different reasons though.

I think it's stupid because what does represent christianity? Is there even such a thing?
What represents christianity, to me, seems completely arbitrary.

There are countless denominations. Which of these represent christianity? Do they ALL represent christianity? Or do none? Or does each represent its own flavour of christianity?

If the latter, then let's look within a single denomination. Let's say it has 1000 followers. Do each of these 1000 represent that flavour of christianity? Or do each of these 1000 individuals each represent their own particular personal flavour of christianity?

If that's the case, then Hitler represented his own personal flavour of christianity - just like all other christians.

I think it's a stupid conversation, precisely because there is no just one "christianity".
There are as many "christianities" as there are denominations. And even within the denominations, there are practically as many "christianities" as there are believers.

But you know what..... there is just one flavour of plate tectonics. There is just one flavour of atomic theory. Just one flavour of germ theory.

It's one of the many reasons why I am an atheist.

 

[sooda]

Wrong, he was the catholic leader of a majority protestant country. He killed atheists and raised christians to power, he had the full backing of the vatican.

Compared to a modern day nonentity internet hack who never met him but is after sensationalism to boost his website hits and advertising revenue i will take the word of popes, cardinals, hitlers hitlers contemporaries and hitler himself on what his religion was.

I don't agree. Hitler persecuted the Catholic clergy as well.

His contemporaries report that he mocked and ridiculed religion except when it was useful in one of his speeches. Religion was just another tool in his toolkit.

 

[ChristineM]

I don't agree. Hitler persecuted the Catholic clergy as well.

His contemporaries report that he mocked and ridiculed religion except when it was useful in one of his speeches. Religion was just another tool in his toolkit.

Not for their religion but for the opposition to his government.

Hitler table talk (as far as i am aware the original source of such claims) was composed by 3rd parties, often from hearsay. As such and serious historian would discount it as a primary source.

 

[sooda]

Not for their religion but for the opposition to his government.

Hitler table talk (as far as i am aware the original source of such claims) was composed by 3rd parties, often from hearsay. As such and serious historian would discount it as a primary source.

Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic.

Why do you think he was religious?

 

[ChristineM]

Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic.

Why do you think he was religious?

That is not precisely true on 2 counts

1/ a persons faith is not a subject for debate, it is no onex prerogative to dictate the faith of another person.

2/ the "historians" deciding hitlers faith tend to be american christian who will not accept that a christian can be so evil.

You should note that although america has (had) much influence it only accounts for 5% of the world population. Translate that to historians and you are a long, long way from consensus. Perhaps a local consensus but nothing to change history.

I never said he was religious but i did say he was christian. I have previously said why in this thread, not repeating it now.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hitler wasn't even a Christian. He hated Christianity.

Whatever Hitler's personal religious beliefs, he still:

- incorporated Christian thought from prominent Christian religious leaders (e.g. Martin Luther)
- paid at least lip-service to Christianity
- crafted Naziism to be acceptable to his base, who were mostly German Christians

 

[sooda]

That is not precisely true on 2 counts

1/ a persons faith is not a subject for debate, it is no onex prerogative to dictate the faith of another person.

2/ the "historians" deciding hitlers faith tend to be american christian who will not accept that a christian can be so evil.

You should note that although america has (had) much influence it only accounts for 5% of the world population. Translate that to historians and you are a long, long way from consensus. Perhaps a local consensus but nothing to change history.

I never said he was religious but i did say he was christian. I have previously said why in this thread, not repeating it now.

I understand what you are saying.. There's this idea that Hitler can't be a Christian because Christians can't do evil things. People make the same argument for Muslims.

I would say ISIS has b*stardized Islam... so I don't see how Hitler could have been a Christians, but there are enough genocides in the Bible to support your conviction.

This is pretty interesting.

For a man whom history can never forget, Adolf Hitler remains a persistent mystery on one front—his religious faith.
Atheists tend to insist Hitler was a devout Christian. Christians counter that he was an atheist. And still others suggest that he was a practicing member of the occult.

None of these theories are true, says historian Richard Weikart.
Delving more deeply into the question of Hitler’s religious faith than any researcher to date, Weikart reveals the startling and fascinating truth about the most hated man of the 20th century: Adolf Hitler was a pantheist who believed nature was God.

In Hitler’s Religion, Weikart explains how the laws of nature became Hitler’s only moral guide—how he became convinced he would serve God by annihilating supposedly “inferior” human beings and promoting the welfare and reproduction of the allegedly superior Aryans in accordance with racist forms of Darwinism prevalent at the time.

Hitler's Religion - Regnery Publishing

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

IMO, Hitler put Martin Luther's ideas into action. Condemning the one ought to me condemning the other.

I can understand how a Catholic could say that their faith has nothing to do with Hitler, but not a Protestant.

 

[ChristineM]

I understand what you are saying.. that Hitler can't be a Christian because Christians can't do evil things. People make the same argument for Muslims. I would say ISIS has b*stardized Islam.

This is pretty interesting.

For a man whom history can never forget, Adolf Hitler remains a persistent mystery on one front—his religious faith.
Atheists tend to insist Hitler was a devout Christian. Christians counter that he was an atheist. And still others suggest that he was a practicing member of the occult.

None of these theories are true, says historian
Delving more deeply into the question of Hitler’s religious faith than any researcher to date, Weikart reveals the startling and fascinating truth about the most hated man of the 20th century: Adolf Hitler was a pantheist who believed nature was God.

In Hitler’s Religion, Weikart explains how the laws of nature became Hitler’s only moral guide—how he became convinced he would serve God by annihilating supposedly “inferior” human beings and promoting the welfare and reproduction of the allegedly superior Aryans in accordance with racist forms of Darwinism prevalent at the time.

Hitler's Religion - Regnery Publishing

Richard Weikart is one of those christian american historians and a creationist to boot. I would take his claims as being equal to the claim of god dun it wiv magic.?

Why would a man who it is claimed was anti religious have his own bishop, praise god, ensure his troops were blessed by a priest before every engagement and have "got mit uns" as the military motto?

 

[sooda]

Richard Weikart is one of those christian american historians and a creationist to boot. I would take his claims as being equal to the claim of god dun it wiv magic.?

Why would a man who it is claimed was anti religious have his own bishop, praise god, ensure his troops were blessed by a priest before every engagement and have "got mit uns" as the military motto?

View attachment 27551

Don't you think Hitler was good at manipulating the masses? God is with us is justification for theft and murder.. It elevates racism and genocide to something noble.

Well, that hit me right between the eyes.. Very old testament, isn't it?

 

[ChristineM]

Don't you think Hitler was good at manipulating the masses? God is with us is justification for theft and murder.. It elevates racism and genocide to something noble.

Well, that hit me right between the eyes.. Very old testament, isn't it?

He was very good at manipulation, that in no way dictates or negates his faith. It took a lot of willing people to keep him in power, to man his armies and to operate his gas chambers, most of whom were also christian.

That is your opinion, hitler believed god was on his side and condoned his actions, as do many powerful people

A Wehrmacht belt buckle, other branches of his forces had the christian swastika as a centre to the motto

 

[sooda]

He was very good at manipulation, that in no way dictates or negates his faith. It took a lot of willing people to keep him in power, to man his armies and to operate his gas chambers, most of whom were also christian.

That is your opinion, hitler believed god was on his side and condoned his actions, as do many powerful people

A Wehrmacht belt buckle, other branches of his forces had the christian swastika as a centre to the motto

I remember seeing iron fences with the swastika emblem after the war.

I never knew it was Christian.

The Swastika originated in Neolithic India, waaaay before Christianity. "The symbol has an ancient history in Europe, also appearing on artifacts from pre-Christian European cultures. In antiquity, the swastika was used extensively by the Indo-Aryans, Persians, Hittites, Slavs, Celts and Greeks, among others.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Don't you think Hitler was good at manipulating the masses? God is with us is justification for theft and murder.. It elevates racism and genocide to something noble.

It only does that with people who consider God to be noble, e.g. Christians. "God is with us" doesn't carry much weight with atheists.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I'm sorry... Hitler played the Christian for the mobs..

Diary of the Hitler Diary Hoax | The New Yorker

Diary of the Hitler Diary Hoax. By Sally McGrane. April 25, 2013 ... the Hitler Diaries hoax is still the biggest scandal to have hit German journalism after 1945. ... Hitler’s private secretary …

Diary of the Hitler Diary Hoax

On April 25, 1983, Stern magazine—the German answer to Life—held a press conference to make a sensational announcement: their star reporter had discovered a trove of Hitler’s personal diaries, lost since a plane crash in 1945. Now Stern would begin publishing what he’d found.

The magazine claimed that the diaries—of which, remarkably, there had been no previous record—would require a major rewriting of Hitler’s biography and the history of the Third Reich.

The handwritten volumes included everything from descriptions of flatulence and halitosis (“Eva says I have bad breath”), to an account of Braun’s hysterical pregnancy in 1940, and the revelation that a surprisingly sensitive Hitler didn’t know what was happening to the Jews...

continued

Oh. My. Yet *another* KKKrisitian Apologizer, creating lies in a vain and futile attempt to "explain" how a Genuine Christian could go all Holocaust on the world....

*yawn*

 

[sooda]

Oh. My. Yet *another* KKKrisitian Apologizer, creating lies in a vain and futile attempt to "explain" how a Genuine Christian could go all Holocaust on the world....

*yawn*

Did you believe the Hitler Diary Hoax?

 

[sooda]

IMO, Hitler put Martin Luther's ideas into action. Condemning the one ought to me condemning the other.

I can understand how a Catholic could say that their faith has nothing to do with Hitler, but not a Protestant.

That's a bad rap on Protestants.

Hitler was born to Catholic parents. His father was reported to be lukewarm in his faith, but his mother was very devout.

Adolf Hitler was confirmed in 1904, but did not often attend Mass.

The question is not whether Hitler was a Catholic, but whether he practiced the Catholic faith and if his lifestyle accurately represented Catholicism.