Did Judas do God's will?

[lilithu]

Very true. So it is a man made idea, not that of Gods

God is a man made idea.

That doesn't mean that God isn't real. So too with purgatory.

 

[S-word]

God is a man made idea.

That doesn't mean that God isn't real. So too with purgatory.

Wrong, man is a God made idea.

 

[lunamoth]

This might belong in a different spot. But I've been struggling with this one for a while. As you can see, I'm Catholic, but I'm still not sure on this one. We all have freewill, including Judas, but without him betraying Jesus to the HIgh Priests then Jesus wouldn't have died for our sins. I guess my question is, was Judas doing God's will? Was he born for that specific reason? Keep in mind, I understand we all have freewill and he could have chose not to turn on Jesus. But, without his actions, the crucifixtion wouldn't have taken place. Just a thought.

No, it was not God's will that Jesus be killed. That was man's choice. If Jesus had not been killed then something else equally effective in redeeming our relationship with God would have happened.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think God could justify betrayal, because betrayal necessitates deception. But God is Truth.

 

[logician]

Wrong, man is a God made idea.

Wrong, life originated w/o a precursive idea.

 

[lockyfan]

No, it was not God's will that Jesus be killed. That was man's choice. If Jesus had not been killed then something else equally effective in redeeming our relationship with God would have happened.

Um no the scrtiptures are quite clear.

Jesus life was ransomed for ours

He undid whast Adam messed up

 

[lockyfan]

Jesus was a man like all of us, he was born of two human parents, and was the first fruits to be redeemed from the dead past of the Son of Man who, after ascending to the ends of time, descended into his dead past to give to his chosen ones, his immortal life, as he cannot die.

Jesus was the first of many brothers to have been chosen as heirs to the throne of Godhead. Acts 3:13 For the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our ancestors who gave as his name to Moses,"Who I Am," has given divine glory to his servant Jesus. This he did by placing him in his heavenly throne as the cornerstone to the new Temple of Godhead, in which he will dwell on earth.

The Kingdom of the Most High is within you, for Mankind is currently the Tabernacle of God wherein he, the Godhead, dwells within the inner most sanctuary of every descendant of Noah, in who the indwelling father spirit is that of the only man to have been redeemed from the old world that was destroyed by water, who passed over into this world which is destined to burn up and fall as Massive columns of fire beyound all measure in height and depth into the great Abyss that is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven.

I tell you a sacred secret, we shall not all fall asleep in death, but, at the sound of the last trumpet, we shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter into glorious bodies of brilliant and uncorruptible light.
All who receive a share of the hidden Manna, a small piece of the immortal body of the Most High, will be gathered to the cornerstone of the new and glorious Temple of the most high, the new Kingdom of God on earth, the Son of Man which is the next stage in the eternal growth or evolution of the mind that is God. The brilliant and more glorious Light Temple of God, which will dwell on earth among mankind.

Acts 17: 3, "For he, (The Most High) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

Sorry he was not of two human parents

he was THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. For one simple reason

Proverbs 8:22-32
Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men. “And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways.

As you can see Jesus was there right from the start long before even the angels were created. Therefore he was actually an angel before he became human. He therefore was not the product of two humans, but he was already a life, that was moved from his station in heaven to the womb of Mary, so that when he was born he would grow up and eventually fulfil what he was supposed to do. That is to say that he was to minister to other human beings as the Son of God and that he was then to die so that we too will get what we were always intended to get. A perfect life.


Also um Jesus did die, ahh when he was crucified he died. For 3 days he was dead. He didnt get raised to Heaven straight away like most religions tell you, that when you die, your soul goes straight to heaven. If that were so, why would Jesus describe the dead as "sleeping in death"? why would king Solomon tell us that the dea are conscious of nothing?


Also yes, he will be King in Jehovahs or Gods Kingdom I dont doubt that, but only the anointed get to enter into heaven, the rest of us live under that rulership upon the earth itself.

 

[LittleNipper]

No, it was not God's will that Jesus be killed. That was man's choice. If Jesus had not been killed then something else equally effective in redeeming our relationship with God would have happened.

It was entirely GOD's choice that CHRIST would be THE ULTIMATE SACRAFICE. Only blood can atone for sin and only CHRIST's blood was totally without blemish. GOD foreknew what would happen and allowed it to happen to fulfill HIS perfect will.

 

[LittleNipper]

God is a man made idea.

That doesn't mean that God isn't real. So too with purgatory.

I don't believe man is good enough to make up CHRIST.

 

[lockyfan]

It was entirely GOD's choice that CHRIST would be THE ULTIMATE SACRAFICE. Only blood can atone for sin and only CHRIST's blood was totally without blemish. GOD foreknew what would happen and allowed it to happen to fulfill HIS perfect will.

Um I hope you didnt just misguide these people with the whole God knew this bad stuff was oging to happn so he let it happen thing.

It is a question of sovereignty actually. Jehovahs right to rule over humans was questioned by satan Satan said he would be able to do a better job than God, by letting us rule ourselves. We see in human history we arent meant to rule ourselves, we just trample on everyone else. Gods has allowed this to go on so that all the people who will be saved can be saved.

Christs blood was without blemish because he was actualyl perfect, as humans were intended to be in the first place. He is called the last Adam, because Adam was our original human father and through him sin entered to world, thus through Jesus sacrificing his perfect life we gain perfect life

A perfect life for a perfect life. It was a ransom, so that God's Will actually take place. And that is human kind living happily together in a paradise ruled by Gods Kingdom

I don't believe man is good enough to make up CHRIST.

Christ is not God, he is the son of God. But Man was created by God, not man creating God, so I agree with you on that principle with tiny difference

 

[Buttons*]

God is a man made idea.

That doesn't mean that God isn't real. So too with purgatory.

That's speculation. You don't know what you're saying is true or not.

I think Judas did God's will, the true One, not the manifestation of our imagination.

 

[sojourner]

Um no the scrtiptures are quite clear.

Jesus life was ransomed for ours

He undid whast Adam messed up

Are they? Read again.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus was a man like all of us, he was born of two human parents, and was the first fruits to be redeemed from the dead past of the Son of Man who, after ascending to the ends of time, descended into his dead past to give to his chosen ones, his immortal life, as he cannot die.

Convoluted. And a wonderful job of eisegeting the scriptures.

Proverbs 8:22-32
Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men. “And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways.

As you can see Jesus was there right from the start long before even the angels were created. Therefore he was actually an angel before he became human. He therefore was not the product of two humans, but he was already a life, that was moved from his station in heaven to the womb of Mary, so that when he was born he would grow up and eventually fulfil what he was supposed to do. That is to say that he was to minister to other human beings as the Son of God and that he was then to die so that we too will get what we were always intended to get. A perfect life.

Be careful! This is wisdom talking, not Jesus.
And where do you get the part that Jesus was an angel???

It was entirely GOD's choice that CHRIST would be THE ULTIMATE SACRAFICE. Only blood can atone for sin and only CHRIST's blood was totally without blemish. GOD foreknew what would happen and allowed it to happen to fulfill HIS perfect will.

Only if you buy into atonement theology. There are other ways to interpret the Bible that are just as valid, and make more sense (IMO) of God's unmitigated love for us.

Christ is not God, he is the son of God.

Oh? Really!

 

[tomspug]

This might belong in a different spot. But I've been struggling with this one for a while. As you can see, I'm Catholic, but I'm still not sure on this one. We all have freewill, including Judas, but without him betraying Jesus to the HIgh Priests then Jesus wouldn't have died for our sins. I guess my question is, was Judas doing God's will? Was he born for that specific reason? Keep in mind, I understand we all have freewill and he could have chose not to turn on Jesus. But, without his actions, the crucifixtion wouldn't have taken place. Just a thought.

Judas's free will was never compromised. He chose to betray Jesus. God's foreknowledge allows good to come out of everything, good or bad.

 

[LittleNipper]

Um I hope you didnt just misguide these people with the whole God knew this bad stuff was oging to happn so he let it happen thing.

It is a question of sovereignty actually. Jehovahs right to rule over humans was questioned by satan Satan said he would be able to do a better job than God, by letting us rule ourselves. We see in human history we arent meant to rule ourselves, we just trample on everyone else. Gods has allowed this to go on so that all the people who will be saved can be saved.

Christs blood was without blemish because he was actualyl perfect, as humans were intended to be in the first place. He is called the last Adam, because Adam was our original human father and through him sin entered to world, thus through Jesus sacrificing his perfect life we gain perfect life

A perfect life for a perfect life. It was a ransom, so that God's Will actually take place. And that is human kind living happily together in a paradise ruled by Gods Kingdom



Christ is not God, he is the son of God. But Man was created by God, not man creating God, so I agree with you on that principle with tiny difference

In John 8:58 Jesus says, "before Abraham was, I Am." Many people make the logical assumption that this is a reference to Exodus 3:14 where God reveals his name to be "I Am" (when he speaks it), or "You Are" (or Yahweh when his people say it). While there appears to be some basic similarity in meaning, the wording of the Greek underlying these verses looks quite different and so it seems unlikely that John intended for us to see a connection between these two verses.
Was "I Am" a way of referring to God? We know that in Judaism in the time of Jesus the Jews had become very conscious of the sacredness of the Divine Name and were afraid to say it publically or even privately (Matt 7:6). For this reason it became common to say "Lord" instead. However, there were other methods used for referring to God besides this ("Power" Matt 26:64, "Heaven" is common in 2 Macc).
Despite the failure of the connection between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14, it can still be shown that God was known as the "I am" to the Jews, and that they sometimes used this as a way of referring to him. In fact, Psalm 90:2 is almost an exact parallel of John 8:58 - except that mountains are mentioned instead of Abraham, and the words used "You Are" are used instead of "I Am." (Note that only the Greek (LXX) version and not the Hebrew should be used for this comparison. The Hebrew says "You are God" not just "You Are.")
That Jesus' words were a forceful claim to Divinity is immediately apparent - the crowd attempts to stone him. This is something that they would not do if they merely thought he was crazy.

 

[lockyfan]

Are they? Read again.

How about you read again. If you have been misguided by your church, then it shows a thing or two about that particular religion

Be careful! This is wisdom talking, not Jesus.
And where do you get the part that Jesus was an angel???

Micah 5:2
And you, O Beth′le‧hem Eph′ra‧thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite
A prophecy about Jesus. He was from "times indefinite"

As proverbs 8 says and i quoted it before, (am paraphrasing now) he was created before everything else and helped Jehovah God create everything else.John 8:21Hence he said to them again: “I am going away, and YOU will look for me, and yet YOU will die in YOUR sin. Where I am going YOU cannot come.” Therefore the Jews began to say: “He will not kill himself, will he? Because he says, ‘Where I am going YOU cannot come.’” So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.

Why would he say that he was "from the realms above"if he did not start out as an angel?

Revelation 3:14
These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

He is described as "the beginning of the creation by God, this is in harmony with what we have learnt in previous scriptures I have quoted hereColossians 1:13-16
He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

Again, firstborn of all creation, God created all other things through Jesus.


See how the scriptures are actually in harmony there? They make sense. Thats also how I know the bible makes sense. Because when used correctly, it tells the truth, not lies and contradictions.

Only if you buy into atonement theology. There are other ways to interpret the Bible that are just as valid, and make more sense (IMO) of God's unmitigated love for us.

There is one way to interpret the bible not many. The atonement is true because Jesus gave his perfect human life, to replace the one that Adam threw away.

A Perfect life for a perfect life

Oh? Really!

Yes really, what do you believe Jesus is?

Judas's free will was never compromised. He chose to betray Jesus.

Yes and what a silly thing to do. He was an apostle and threw all that away for 30 pieces of Silver.

 

[sojourner]

How about you read again. If you have been misguided by your church, then it shows a thing or two about that particular religion

I haven't been misguided by anyone. Least of all, you. But I do know that the Bible isn't nearly as "clear" with regard to many statements that are made about it, as you seem to think it is.

A prophecy about Jesus.

A prophecy about the Messiah -- not about Jesus.

As proverbs 8 says and i quoted it before, (am paraphrasing now) he was created before everything else and helped Jehovah God create everything else

Once again, that's wisdom talking, not Jesus.

Why would he say that he was "from the realms above"if he did not start out as an angel?

John also says that Jesus will return to God. God is from above. God is not an angel. Faulty logic at work here. "Angels live in heaven. Jesus comes from heaven. Therefore, Jesus is an angel." Has it occurred to you that not every being in heaven is an angel?

Again, firstborn of all creation, God created all other things through Jesus.

So? This is not cogent to your argument.

See how the scriptures are actually in harmony there? They make sense. Thats also how I know the bible makes sense. Because when used correctly, it tells the truth, not lies and contradictions.

I see how you have contrived in your own mind to make it harmonize. When used correctly, the Bible does transmit truth. But it does so sometimes through contradiction. You can't simply make the contradictions go away. You have to look deeper.

There is one way to interpret the bible not many.

False. The Bible lends itself to many interpretations. That's what's wonderful about it. Substitutionary Atonement is one interpretation. It's not one I share.

Yes really, what do you believe Jesus is?

Emmanuel -- God With Us. God Incarnate. The Word (which was God and was made incarnate).

 

[lockyfan]

I haven't been misguided by anyone. Least of all, you. But I do know that the Bible isn't nearly as "clear" with regard to many statements that are made about it, as you seem to think it is.

A prophecy about the Messiah -- not about Jesus.

Once again, that's wisdom talking, not Jesus.

John also says that Jesus will return to God. God is from above. God is not an angel. Faulty logic at work here. "Angels live in heaven. Jesus comes from heaven. Therefore, Jesus is an angel." Has it occurred to you that not every being in heaven is an angel?

So? This is not cogent to your argument.

I see how you have contrived in your own mind to make it harmonize. When used correctly, the Bible does transmit truth. But it does so sometimes through contradiction. You can't simply make the contradictions go away. You have to look deeper.

False. The Bible lends itself to many interpretations. That's what's wonderful about it. Substitutionary Atonement is one interpretation. It's not one I share.

Emmanuel -- God With Us. God Incarnate. The Word (which was God and was made incarnate).

Show a contradiction, using scriptures, not man made ideas to form your argument

God is with us is what Emmanuel means. Also means that Jesus, who was the Messiah (scriptures again show us this) was the perfect reflection of his Father, Jehovah God.

There is one way to read the bible and one way only. If you interpret it any other way, you do not have harmony amongst your congregation and we are told yet again in the scriptures, that we need to be as one in the truth of the bible.

If you can not believe that the bible tells the truth, without mans traditions, then you will find that the priests and religions of our day, are jsut as bad as the Pharisees in Jesus' day.

Maybe you need to look deeper into "the deeps things of God"and get yourself an "accurate knowledge of the truth" of what the bible Really teaches.

So did Judas do God's Will?

 

[lockyfan]

Oh and i forgot to mention.
Jesus is the Word of God
He is Gods King in the Kingdom of Heaven that has started its reign in heaven and will soon be upon this earth
Michael the Archangel is the leader of those Armies
The king leads the Armies of heaven

Jesus, was an angel before he came to earth and yet again after.

 

[SpiritualBeing]

Hmmm, how very interesting. I believe that Judas did carry out the will of God, for was it not prophesied in the Old Testament that the Son of God was to die to save man from sin? Is jesus not always talking of the prophesy that was made about Himself?

I will try and find quotes, but I warn you, they will not be easy to read. I have got one of the old King James Bibles, and the way that the words are written, I find it hard to believe that anyone could ever read it. Anyway, I'll do a bit of searching.

Blessings,

:candle: