Did Jesus say he was God???

[Muffled]

When you speak to people,especially about the Word of God,its usually a good idea to do so with love.You should not tell me things like,"I believe this means you can't prove your point."
If you feel strongly about something,just ask.You do not have to be harsh or sarcastic about it. Jesus said,"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:35

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

So let us be civil about things and speak with love

I beleive He also said "you brood of vipers."

I believe it would be very unloving of me if I did not say that I believe you can't prove your point. I would want you to say the same thing to me if you believed it were true.

I don't believe I have done so but will be happy to be reproved if you find any.

 

[Muffled]

It's all but impossible for me to picture any Jews following Jesus if he said he was God. I hypothesize that the very early Christians believed that Jesus was of God, but when the church later became more gentile, the "of" was dropped and Jesus became essentially deified.

I believe the Holy Spirit would have corrected that if it were so but instead we find the Holy Spirit confirming it through the apostle Paul.

 

[Nada]

I beleive He also said "you brood of vipers."

I believe it would be very unloving of me if I did not say that I believe you can't prove your point. I would want you to say the same thing to me if you believed it were true.

I don't believe I have done so but will be happy to be reproved if you find any.

When Jesus called those Pharisees "vipers" ,there was good reason for it.These men blasphemed against the holy spirt when they knew very well that it was by Gods doing that Jesus did what he did.

How you do things is how you do things.I do not approach things in that manner.

 

[Nada]

I believe the Holy Spirit would have corrected that if it were so but instead we find the Holy Spirit confirming it through the apostle Paul.

The disciples and Jews knew that Jesus was the Son of God because of prophecy.Peter confirms this.

 

[metis]

I believe the Holy Spirit would have corrected that if it were so but instead we find the Holy Spirit confirming it through the apostle Paul.

But if you believe the HS inspired the "N.T.", and since Jesus on numerous occasions refers to "the Father" in terms that are separate from himself, then Jesus simply cannot be God. One might argue that Jesus is of God, but that's simply not the same as being God.

Also, Paul's writings you gotta be careful with since he uses dualistic statements frequently, which undoubtedly reflected his Hellenistic education. For example, at one point he says to obey all authority because all authority is from God, but if you take that literally I think you can see where there could be a problem.

 

[Nada]

Revelation 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

 

[icebuddy]

The point isn't what I believe but what does your scripture say. Your scripture, according to the text that quote the biblical Yeshua, no information is given.

We are Talking about Phil 2:6 to be exact. In it it says Jesus was in the "Nature" or "Form" of God. The verses before this says we should have humble ourselves to one another although we are all equally created. So as a man, I am to act like Jesus and humble myself to another man although Im equal to that man. In the same way, Jesus who was God and creator also humbled himself. what are your thoughts on that passage and those around...

This isn't about one's personal belief. I've already explained with the biblical Yeshua said. In your scripture he presents and explains his being and nature and at no time does any suggest he's "God" rather he has a god over him giving him commandments.

What you are not exactly giving full attention to is that Jesus became a man, a Jew, just like all Jews. Jews have a God and Jesus becoming man also has a God. But before becoming a man was God and Creator. So much so that in Hebrews the Father quotes passages of YHWH and says it was Jesus who was being talked about in Psalms 102:25-27. When you read the Psalm, who do you think or say that is...?

I believe, according to your very on scripture, that he "existed". Your scriptures don't leave any room for me to speculation what he was before his god sent him or what he was when, according toy your scripture, he ascended. Both show he was seperate from his god.

John 1:1 says he was God and with God... 1John 1:1-5 says Jesus was the Eternal Word. It is the view of the Christian belief that there is only 1 God and that this 1 God Created by himself and that no one helped him nor is like him... Yet the New Testament writings says Jesus was God and with God and Created everything and is exactly like the Father and is Gods Image. To Say Jesus is separate from God is to focus only upon the 33 years that Jesus emptied himself. You focused on the humbled Jesus. Scriptures says Jesus is not only the offspring of David(man with a god), he is also the Root source of David (Him who holds everything together by his very existence)

Again, I never said he was. You have me confused with someone else.

What is your belief so i can understand...?

Not according to your scripture. The biblical Yeshua says he has a god before being sent, after being sent and after his ascension....

Please show the passages you are talking about. You keep saying "Your Scripture" then assume you know it better than the ones who claim it theirs... The Scriptures says exactly that Jesus was the "Eternal Word" before becoming a man. 1John1:1-4

Not according to your scripture. The biblical Yeshua seems to maintain he has authority granted him by his god on Earth and in heaven. This would mean before his god sent him he had authority given to him and after his god sent him he maintained that authority...which is why the phrase (all authority is given to me in heaven and on Earth) make sense...Also see his prayer to his god (John 17:2) where he utter the same thing...

In that prayer John 17:2 Jesus clearly says there was a state of existence he had before he became a man that he wants to return to. To return to the Glory he had before the world was created and before he emptied himself. John 1:1 and 1John1:1-4 says this was the Eternal Word. You are again focused on a humbled Jesus. Do you agree that "my scripture" says Jesus is in a lowered humble state while a man?

Not according to your very own scripture.....and I just explained to you that he had been given that authority before being sent and before his ascension back to heaven (so your scripture says)

Please post those scriptures. It is our belief that Jesus was God and the Eternal Word (not created) before the word was created. Has All Authority and although he was God, emptied himself to become a man and Die for our sins. After tasting death he was resurrected into the glory. Please post those scriptures you say explain your thoughts...

PS - All the above are my beliefs that I believe to be true.

 

[icebuddy]

I do not believe a mere man would allow for any interpretation of the verse. I did not empty myself of anything before I was born. So whatever Jesus may be a mere man is not among them.

Do you believe Jesus was the Eternal Word before his birth on earth? (1John1:1-4)
Do you believe Jesus Created everything before his birth on Earth?

What is your belief/Religion? That might help me understand your thoughts... Because you said "you did not empty yourself to become a man" has me guessing...

 

[icebuddy]

Let me ask a rhetorical question: why is it supposedly necessary to believe if there's no real objective information? Again, one could "lean" in a particular direction but I really doubt one must somehow believe if they feel there's insufficient evidence. OTOH, if you feel there is sufficient evidence, that's a diferrent matter, and I not gonna press you on this.

I feel there is enough sufficient evidence for my belief to be true. Besides, its more than just a belief, its a relationship with Jesus. This relationship is very real to me...

How can no belief be a belief?

Because you believe that you have no belief... If there is a God and he really exists as I believe, your non-belief has you believing that he is not real. Making your non-belief a very real belief.

As far as the latter question is concerned, Jews are all over the board on this even though Judaism posits one god. As for me, I "lean" in the direction of naturalism, ala Spinoza/Einstein style, which "leans" in the direction that whatever caused this universe/multiverse I'll call "God" and pretty much just leave it at that.

Thanks for your answer.

 

[metis]

I feel there is enough sufficient evidence for my belief to be true. Besides, its more than just a belief, its a relationship with Jesus. This relationship is very real to me...

I can live with that.

Because you believe that you have no belief... If there is a God and he really exists as I believe, your non-belief has you believing that he is not real. Making your non-belief a very real belief.

I never said that God is either real nor unreal as I have no belief either way, and no belief is no belief.

Thanks for your answer.

You're welcome.

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus did not need to correct Peter because Peter spoke correctly when he said that
“You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God" which is why he said " Blessed are you, Simon....

Jensen,
Good to see your post! You are correct, but i would like to add that Jesus "became" the son of God at a point in time. (Hebrews 1:5) i will never argue that Jesus is the "Son of God' or the "Messiah" while in his humbled state walking the earth for 33 years.

The question Im looking at is: What was Jesus before God said to him "Today you are my son, I am your Father"? Before Jesus emptied himself to become God the Fathers Firstborn son.

Remember that If Simon Peter would have said, "You are a Man, a Jew" he would not be wrong either, but he would be missing some important information about Jesus. Just as I believe seeing Jesus as "Son of God the Messiah" is also correct, we must not miss out on other important information about Jesus. For example, when Peter said this, did he know Jesus Created everything and was the Rock of the Jews that followed them... Read Psalms 23:1 with John 10:11

 

[Dirty Penguin]

We are Talking about Phil 2:6 to be exact. In it it says Jesus was in the "Nature" or "Form" of God. The verses before this says we should have humble ourselves to one another although we are all equally created. So as a man, I am to act like Jesus and humble myself to another man although Im equal to that man. In the same way, Jesus who was God and creator also humbled himself. what are your thoughts on that passage and those around...

The verse isn't quoting the biblical Yeshua and serves as the writer's interpretation. When Yeshua continuously says his god sent him, his god instructed him, his god loved him, his god blessed him, his god gave him......we don't assume he himself is "God"...He's telling you plainly what his nature is.

What you are not exactly giving full attention to is that Jesus became a man, a Jew, just like all Jews. Jews have a God and Jesus becoming man also has a God. But before becoming a man was God and Creator.

Not according to your scripture. He clearly acknowledges the fact that he has a god that sent him. In order to be sent there must be a sender. But we know that according to your scripture that even after ascension he holds that he has a god.

So much so that in Hebrews the Father quotes passages of YHWH and says it was Jesus who was being talked about in Psalms 102:25-27. When you read the Psalm, who do you think or say that is...?

Nothing in the OT has anything to do with the biblical Yeshua. When you read all in the the OT that is attributed to Yeshua...and you read them in context you don't arrive at the conclusion they're talking about him unless you're approaching the scripture with preconceived ideas/understandings.

John 1:1 says he was God and with God... 1John 1:1-5 says Jesus was the Eternal Word. It is the view of the Christian belief that there is only 1 God and that this 1 God Created by himself and that no one helped him nor is like him... Yet the New Testament writings says Jesus was God and with God and Created everything and is exactly like the Father and is Gods Image.

This too has been dealt with in this thread and after many discussions breaking down the Greek as well as what we find in the Aramaic Pe****ta Jhn. 1:1 does not equate to the biblical Yeshua being "God"

What is your belief so i can understand...?

One does not need to be Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Pagan etc to have an understanding of your scripture or the context of the stories/history written.

Please show the passages you are talking about. You keep saying "Your Scripture" then assume you know it better than the ones who claim it theirs... The Scriptures says exactly that Jesus was the "Eternal Word" before becoming a man. 1John1:1-4

I've given a few chapters and verses already. I touched on the ascension of the biblical Yeshua and the store laid out in Revelation 5 which shows that even after his ascension it show he has a god.

In that prayer John 17:2 Jesus clearly says there was a state of existence he had before he became a man that he wants to return to. To return to the Glory he had before the world was created and before he emptied himself.

Actually it says (with). That takes on a whole new meaning.

John 17:5
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

I will leave the interpretations up to you. To me it's clear. Just like this verse here.....

John 14:23
"Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

 

[Shuttlecraft]

I knew a young street preacher in Leicester (England) about 15 years ago and he always drew a good crowd because he seemed sensible and had good commonsense.
I lost touch with him after I moved to Plymouth but decided to drop him an email for old times sake earlier this year and was shocked at how he's changed.
He's now a minister at a Baptist church and tells me he believes Jesus IS God.
I told him he's wrong, and we politely stopped emailing each other.

The moral is that since he became a minister, he probably devotes himself to endless bible study and it's sent him half-nutty and made him lose his sense of perspective and his grip on Jesus.
That's why Paul had to warn people to keep it simple-
Paul said - "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)

 

[Jensen]

Jensen,
Good to see your post! You are correct, but i would like to add that Jesus "became" the son of God at a point in time. (Hebrews 1:5) i will never argue that Jesus is the "Son of God' or the "Messiah" while in his humbled state walking the earth for 33 years.

I don't plan to post very much....I agree that Jesus became the son of God at a point in time. And I'd never argue against Jesus being the Son of God, or the Messiah as I believe that he was.

Do you believe that he was the Son of God and Messiah only while on the earth for the 33 years?

The question Im looking at is: What was Jesus before God said to him "Today you are my son, I am your Father"? Before Jesus emptied himself to become God the Fathers Firstborn son.

Happy searching.

Remember that If Simon Peter would have said, "You are a Man, a Jew" he would not be wrong either, but he would be missing some important information about Jesus.

Which he wasn't.

Just as I believe seeing Jesus as "Son of God the Messiah" is also correct, we must not miss out on other important information about Jesus. For example, when Peter said this, did he know Jesus Created everything and was the Rock of the Jews that followed them... Read Psalms 23:1 with John 10:11

Are you arguing for the trinity, that Jesus is God, or for Jesus' pre-human existence?

Peter was very clear in that he stated that Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah. And Jesus did not add that you're correct but I'm also God.

 

[JM2C]

The moral is that since he became a minister, he probably devotes himself to endless bible study and it's sent him half-nutty and made him lose his sense of perspective and his grip on Jesus.
That's why Paul had to warn people to keep it simple-
Paul said - "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)

If you read the following verse or verses then you would understand the meaning of verse 3.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom WE did not preach, or if ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with him.

Different preacher, different spirit, and different gospel.

Did Paul and the other apostles preach that Christ is God? YES!

Ro 9:5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And these are the “simplicity and purity that is toward Christ” that Paul and the other apostles were talking about in verse 3, that the false apostles were trying to corrupt/pervert, even as we speak today, with their sophisticated philosophies, as Satan’s agents VV13-14.

They were trying to preach a different gospel to the Corinthians. The dangers of this intellectual deception, as in the garden when Satan deceived Eve –verse3, can lead to apostasy.

Paul warned Titus with this same “sophisticated philosophies” in,

Tit 1:10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.

False apostles like these are apparently the Gnostic Judaists who professed as Christians seeking to infiltrate the churches with their false doctrine –Read Acts 20:28-29 Ac 20:29 “I know that after I leave, savage wolves [in sheep’s clothing –Matthew.7:15] will come in among you and will not spare the flock.”

They try to implant onto Christianity different aspects of Judaism, just like today –read Bible Student’s posts about mixing the Law of Moses with grace, and present this hybrid as a doctrine with higher “sophisticated philosophies” away from the [Shuttlecraft]"simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)[/quote]

These false apostles/teachers are known as the “hybrid Christians” in sheep’s clothing. “Deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ” -2Cor. 11:13.

2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

 

[JM2C]

THE MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY​

Why change “Echad” to “Yachid” in Dt 6:4?​

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity has been generally misunderstood among the Jewish people, with the result that they believe we worship three Gods. To set forth this idea and the reason for its strong hold on the Jewish people to-day we propose to quote rather extensively from the writings of one who is in a position to understand the problem, - from the writings of Ex-Rabbi Leopold Cohn. Says he:

"The reason that the Jews have become estranged from the doctrine of the Triune God is found in the teachings of Moses Maimonides. He compiled thirteen articles of faith which the Jews accepted and incorporated into their liturgy. One of them is 'I believe with a perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is an absolute one' (Hebrew, 'Yachid'). This has been repeated daily by Jews in their prayers, ever since the twelfth century, when Moses Maimonides lived. This expression of an 'absolute one' is diametrically opposed to the word of Godwhich teaches with great emphasis that God is not a 'Yachid,' which means an only one, or an 'absolute one,' but 'Echad,' which means a united one. In Deuteronomy 6:4 God laid down for His people a principle of faith, which is certainly superior to that of Moses Maimonides, inasmuch as it comes from God Himself. We read, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE,' stressing the sense of the phrase 'one' by using not 'yachid,' which Moses Maimonides does, but ' Echad,' which means a united one.

"We want now to trace where these two words, 'yachid' and ' Echad,' occur in the Old Testament and in what connection and sense they are used, and thus ascertain their true meaning.

"In Genesis I we read, 'And there was evening and there was morning, one day.' Here the word ' Echad ' is used, which implies that the evening and the morning - two separate objects - are called one, thus showing plainly that the word ' Echad ' does not mean an 'absolute one,' but a united one. Then in Genesis 2:24 we read, 'Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.' Here too the word ' Echad ' is used, furnishing another proof that it means a united one, referring, as it does in this case, to two separate persons.

"Now let us see in the Word of God where that expression 'yachid,' an 'absolute one,' is found. In Genesis 22:2 God says to Abraham, 'Take now thy son, thine only son.' Here we read the word 'yachid.' The same identical word, 'yachid,' is repeated in the 12th verse of the same chapter. In Psalm 25:16 it is again applied to a single person as also in Jeremiah 6:26, where we read, 'Make thee mourning as for an only son.' The same word, conveying the sense of one only, occurs in Zechariah 12:10, 'And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son.'

"Thus we see that Moses Maimonides, with all his great wisdom and much learning, made a serious mistake in prescribing for the Jews that confession of faith in which it is stated that God is a 'yachid,' a statement which is absolutely opposed to the Word of God. And the Jews, in blindly following the so-called 'second Moses' have once more given evidence of their old proclivities of perverting the Word of the living God. The Holy Spirit made that serious complaint against them through Jeremiah the prophet, saying, 'For ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God' (Jer. 23:36).
"This is therefore the belief of the true Christian. He does not have three gods, but 'one,' a Scriptural one, which is in Hebrew ' Echad,' and which consists of three personal revelations of God as we shall see in the following Scripture.

"In the very first verse of the Bible we find two, manifestations of the Godhead. 'In the beginning God created . . , and the Spirit of God moved.' Here we see plainly that God taught us to believe that He is the creator of all things and that His Spirit is moving upon this world of ours to lead, guide and instruct us in the way He wants us to walk. So here in the first chapter of the Bible are two manifestations of God. - Loraine Boettner

 

[1robin]

Do you believe Jesus was the Eternal Word before his birth on earth? (1John1:1-4)
Do you believe Jesus Created everything before his birth on Earth?

Yes and yes.

your belief/Religion? That might help me understand your thoughts... Because you said "you did not empty yourself to become a man" has me guessing...

I am a Baptist. My point was that arguing only that Jesus is not God is not enough. I have no firm Trinitarian position myself as I have never seen the necessity to, but to resolve the issue it takes more than claims Jesus is not God. It must also be shown he is merely a man. While the former might have enough gray to support doubt the latter is impossible and we end up with the former by default. I don't normally argue for or against the Trinity. I attempt to clarify the argumentation about it.

 

[icebuddy]

It doesn't say that he is called "mighty God" but "mighty god" being that all letters were of the same case. Also the bible calls men "gods" and this does not mean they are God.

Psalms 82 ...5They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7"Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."…

Do you see my point?

Why did you jump to Psalms to show this... Wouldnt it be better to see how Isaiah himself uses the term "mighty god"? If you look turn a few pages and look to Isaiah 10:21 and see that he uses the term how I use the term. It is far better to use the same writer and how he uses terms then to jump to a different one... Wouldnt you agree?

He emptied himself of his own Will, and desires, to do only the Will of God.
If we were to do the same thing we would not be God either.

There's a small problem with your thinking... We are not the Image of God, we are not the Creator of all upholding everything by our very existence, we are not expressing God fully and exactly, there is so much more, but if you do not see it the way i do, not sure what to say... You equate Jesus to us as if he only is in a humbled state. Let me ask you this question: Was Jesus in a humble state (Emptied himself) when he was doing the Will of God?

 

[icebuddy]

He was the image of God, there is no verses that say he was Gods imprint stamped out in a human body.

Look a little deeper at Hebrews 1:3. Look up the word for "Exact Representation" or what ever your bible translates for "charaktēr" (Greek)...

Greek -
charaktēr

1. the instrument used for engraving or carving
2. the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
   1. a mark or figure burned in or stamped on, an impression
   2. the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

Jesus is God stamped out in human flesh according to what we read and believe. That is why we see so many old testament passages of Jehovah being applied to Jesus. We also see all the names for God in the OT being applied to Jesus in the NT...

PS - These are my beliefs and that of my Church that I believe to be true

 

[Jensen]

Why did you jump to Psalms to show this... Wouldnt it be better to see how Isaiah himself uses the term "mighty god"? If you look turn a few pages and look to Isaiah 10:21 and see that he uses the term how I use the term. It is far better to use the same writer and how he uses terms then to jump to a different one... Wouldnt you agree?

Tom, I checked back and you didn't use or post any verses in your message that I answered, and so why the objection of my using Isaiah to show that men can be called gods, and so there is no reason to assume that Jesus is God when being called god as we are not god when called god. That was my point when using that verse.

God is the writer, the author of the bible. And so will use whatever verses I see that support the view that I am giving. Especially, if it is clear and to the point and so easier to understand then verses whose meanings are more vague and therefore easier to make a mistake in understanding.

There's a small problem with your thinking... We are not the Image of God, we are not the Creator of all upholding everything by our very existence, we are not expressing God fully and exactly, there is so much more, but if you do not see it the way i do, not sure what to say... You equate Jesus to us as if he only is in a humbled state. Let me ask you this question: Was Jesus in a humble state (Emptied himself) when he was doing the Will of God?

Tom, the bible does say we were made in the image of God.

As for Jesus being in a humbled state, he is still, while in heaven at the right hand of God, subject to his God and Father, and therefore in a humbled state, just as we will still be when resurrected into God's Kingdom. The difference is that Jesus has a higher position then we will have being that he is the Son of God and the Christ and intercessor. Remember the verse that say that the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God? It is clear....no room for misunderstanding.