Did Jesus say he was God???

[Harikrish]

Jesus was in spirit form before Abraham was alive on earth.When Jesus came in the flesh, as the Son of God,he became lower than the angels by becoming human.When Jesus was resurrected after he had been put to death,he received immortal life.He ascended back to heaven where he is once again a spirit form.

Hebrew verse says Jesus was made lower than the angels and for his sacrifice he was glorified and honoured. It does not say he was made God.

When Jesus appeared after his resurrection before his disciples. They thought he was a ghost because all that was left if him was flesh and bones. How could he go to heaven when he was in a perishable body? He was also very human and hungry and asked for food and then ate what was served to him.

Luke 24: 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself ! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.
41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

Paul wrote no physical body can enter heaven because it is perishable. Flesh is perishable, bones are perishable, therefore, Jesus was perishable.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

 

[icebuddy]

And strangely enough you do not believe Jesus when he says differently. Why do you believe Jesus' opposers over Jesus?

I disagree with you. You said yourself that God wrote the bible as we know it... In it God wrote through John 5:18 that being Gods son made him equal to God. Thats not Jesus opposers, thats directly from God through Johns writings.

Is it because it supports your preconceived view and that is what you believe because you would rather believe what you want it to say than what Jesus actually says?

Lets test this: John 20:28 Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and My God", correct? Seems simple enough to me, yet whats your answer to what I see as so clear in scripture. You say my beliefs are "Preconceived", yet I studied with JW for over a year and later came to believe as i do now. I just would never look to Jesus who is the image of God and say "NOT GOD". That sound wrong and looking back at how Thomas dealt with the same situation he proclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". The Milk became meat... We all Start off believing Jesus is the Son of God, but as we read and feed off scripture with prayer many believe as I do...

Why not believe Jesus instead of his opposers? He said....
John 17 King James Version
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
(notice here that Jesus is speaking to the Father, and he calls himself his Son)

I agree that Jesus is the Son of God. He emptied himself to become the son of God. The Eternal Word of life 1John 1:1-5 (Already Eternal and with Life) became the son of God when he was in Marys Womb as mentioned at Hebrews 1:5 and Ps 22:10. After being with Jesus after he was resurrected, Thomas saw what many dont, that Jesus is Jehovah. Yes, the son of God is not separate from God, but is a critical part of who Jehovah is.

Paul knew OT scripture better than us. What Does Jehovah say at Isaiah 44:8? He is our Rock and he knows no other... Then why did Paul write 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 ?

You say Im not listening to Jesus, yet you dont know Fully what I believe. i do believe Jesus is the Son of God, submitting to the Father, all of what you believe almost. But I see where Jesus came from, he was no angel, not created, but the Eternal word of God and part of God as the word. I would never look to Jesus and say, "Not God". i wouldnt even think it for 1 second anymore. I use to, but like I said, "Milk became meat". If Jesus wasnt God and with God before the creation, we wouldnt see what we see in the bible. Why would anyone in a million years post passages of Jehovah and directly apply them to Jesus? What I see going on is that you see Jesus as the lamb, but fog up when he is the lion. You see him as the offspring of David but not as the root of david fully. Jesus sustains all creation by his very word, he is God for only God can do that.

2 As thou( this would be the Father) hast given him (Jesus) power over all flesh, that he(Jesus) should give eternal life to as many as thou (the Father) hast given him.

So Jesus never had any power until this point? Dont forget I believe Jesus was All Powerful, emptied himself and was subject to even men on earth. Because of this, he was in need of getting his power back, although he is still the man who mediates for us now. NOTE: Jesus submitted himself to men on earth, does that mean he was not a man? Just showing you that just because one chooses to submit doesnt negate who they are..

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (thee here is the Father....remember he is speaking to the Father) the only true God, (and now while still speaking to the Father calls the Father the only true God) and Jesus Christ, whom thou ( thou is God again that Jesus is speaking to) hast sent. (and that God sent him, Jesus Christ.)

Jesus is fully part of having eternal life and knowing God. The Greek word for "AND" is not a separating word. It means also, with kinda like God is our "God and Savior" now seen fulfilled in the True God and Savior.

4 I have glorified thee (Jesus here is still speaking to God the Father)on the earth: I have finished the work which thou (this would be God ) gavest me to do.

Amen! I believe as you do too, just more...

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (and here Jesus does not say that he is God, only that he receive the glory that he had before the world was.)

Yes, 1john1:1-4 says that was Eternal Word of Life. Every Jew saw Gods Word as God, not as something separate and less God

And so why not believe Jesus and what he says instead of his opposers?

Why not have a full belief? Not being mean, just pointing out. Look at Titus 2:13-14
First off Titus calls Jesus God and if thats not enough he says who gave himself to redeem us. If that together isnt enough, whos appearing? God the Father is invisible and can never be seen... So who exactly is going to appear? Revelation 22:12 Jesus is called Alpha and Omega clearly in scripture, but i have heard many work arounds for this. Ask yourself, who is appearing? who are we gonna see? When that happens (Death or his return) are you prepair to look to him and say, "Not God"? (Thats what you are doing to Jesus, who is the Image of the invisible God)

Why is that those that say they are led by the Holy Spirit do not agree on what they have learned with the help of the Holy Spirit? They should be in exact harmony on their beliefs and as we have seen, they are not.

Im in harmony with many believers. Even those not even living close to me... I will admit that there are some different people that visit this page.

So you believe that when he hands all back to God that he, Jesus, will become God with God. That is will be God? But until that happens he is not yet God?

Thats tricky, i believe Jesus started off as God and although emptied himself and put on humanity that I will never forget his starting point and will always see him as God. However, He is now a resurrected man with Gods Power. That is why you hear God/Man from time to time... Dont you think it interesting that it takes an act of Jesus for God to be all in all?

You really shouldn't be asking others what their religion is.

I think the opposite. There should be nothing to hide when talking about these issues. Why would anyone want to believe someone if they have no others who believe as they do? At some point one needs to join with a body of believers or he/she will find hardship that just might overcome them...

They may be your beliefs but that doesn't mean they are true.

I believe them. I will agree that i dont know everything, but when it comes to the Image of God and looking to Jesus and thinking "not God" is very dangerous to me..

And why shouldn't he be on this page?

i asked his purpose for being on this page. Thats very different from what you just said... Whats his goal on being on this page...

God bless....

You too, just remember that Im very passionate of what I believe. i use to believe as you in many ways when I first became a christian. i just think that something opened up in my mind that allows me to see the way i do. Your beliefs are good and your love for Jesus is what maters. i just dont see how one can be in the same situation as Thomas and say to Jesus, "My Lord but not my God". (Thats how I see it)

PS - These are my belief and I believe them to be True

 

[Nada]

Hebrew verse says Jesus was made lower than the angels and for his sacrifice he was glorified and honoured. It does not say he was made God.

When Jesus appeared after his resurrection before his disciples. They thought he was a ghost because all that was left if him was flesh and bones. How could he go to heaven when he was in a perishable body? He was also very human and hungry and asked for food and then ate what was served to him.

Luke 24: 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself ! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.
41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

Paul wrote no physical body can enter heaven because it is perishable. Flesh is perishable, bones are perishable, therefore, Jesus was perishable.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

That's because Jesus is not God.

 

[Harikrish]

Lets test this: John 20:28 Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and My God", correct? Seems simple enough to me, yet whats your answer to what I see as so clear in scripture. You say my beliefs are "Preconceived", yet I studied with JW for over a year and later came to believe as i do now. I just would never look to Jesus who is the image of God and say "NOT GOD". That sound wrong and looking back at how Thomas dealt with the same situation he proclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". The Milk became meat... We all Start off believing Jesus is the Son of God, but as we read and feed off scripture with prayer many believe as I do...

John like Peter were fishermen and therefore illiterate. That makes it unlikely John was the author of the Gospel of John. The people were surprised Jesus surrounded himself with ignorant illeterates.

Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

The Thomas incident is only found in John. None of the three other Gispels mention the Thomas incident even though Jesus appeared before all tbe disciples.

John's gospel was the last gospel to be written. It differs substantially from the other gospels and Jesus is made a deity in John suggesting Jesus after the crucifixion was gradually exalted to a deity by later Christians and John's gospel reflects those changing doctrines.

 

[`mud]

I get awfully confused sometimes, about Jesus that is.
Ok...Jesus was in heaven with the spirits, and God, and he was an angel.
Hari says that Jesus was lowered to be a man, and he wasn't God, so he must have been an angel.
And John 10:30 said that Jesus said that he and the father are one, higher than a man, higher than an angel, one with God ??
Also...Jesus was before Abraham, so says John again that Jesus said, "before Abraham was born, I am !", didn't God say that to Moses ?
So Bible says "Jesus was in spirit form before Abraham was alive on earth. When Jesus came in the flesh, as the Son of God, he became lower than the angels by becoming human. When Jesus was resurrected after he had been put to death, he received immortal life. He ascended back to heaven where he is once again a spirit form."......Now I didn't say that, and someone said that Jesus took up food and ate from the servings offered to him, into a dead body, with damaged feet and hands, for proof of his torture. I added a little of that, I thought it made sense.
Oh well...doesn't make sense to me...hey Theif, wise me up !
~
'mud

 

[JM2C]

Jesus is forced to come up with a different answer, something more acceptable because his first try was unsatisfactory. Jesus has put his foot in his mouth before.

So he replies with a question in John 10:34 " Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?

It is a bit of convoluted logic that he references to god figuratively calling people gods in Psalms. The man is desperate, his first answer was unsatisfactory and he is about to get stoned. So he brings up past examples where people were also called gods and therein is his justification and rationalism. Thus offering the semantic legality of his claim.

if you read Psalm 82:6 God was referring to the “gods” as “men” in verse 7 of Psalm 82. The Lord Jesus Christ used Psalm 82:6 to strengthen His argument, a kind of fortiori argument. Please read and understand the following verses that you FORGOT to add.

Jn 10:35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

Jn 10:36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

If, terms like “gods” can be applied to ordinary mortals, how could they, the Jews, accused The Lord Jesus Christ of blasphemy when He applied them to Himself, “the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? –John 10:36”

The Lord Jesus Christ was not offering a false claim like you’ve suggested “The man is desperate” for an answer and quoted Psalm 82:6 to avoid stoning.

The Lord Jesus Christ was merely asserting what He was by right, and that is, The Son of God.

In verse 29 of John 10, The Lord Jesus Christ said, “My Father” as in the “only begotten Son of God” –John 1:18 from eternity “the glory which I had with thee before the world was” - John 17:5.

The “only begotten Son of God” –John 1:18 is the same as in Heb 1:8 “But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God”

Therefore, calling His “only begotten Son” –John 1:18 as
God in Hebrews 1:8 “Your throne, O God” is what the Jews
were thinking when The Lord Jesus Christ said, “I and the
Father are one.” –John 10:30, read also John 5:18.

Blasphemy, the Jews said.

 

[Harikrish]

if you read Psalm 82:6 God was referring to the “gods” as “men” in verse 7 of Psalm 82. The Lord Jesus Christ used Psalm 82:6 to strengthen His argument, a kind of fortiori argument. Please read and understand the following verses that you FORGOT to add.

Jn 10:35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

Jn 10:36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

If, terms like “gods” can be applied to ordinary mortals, how could they, the Jews, accused The Lord Jesus Christ of blasphemy when He applied them to Himself, “the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? –John 10:36”

The Lord Jesus Christ was not offering a false claim like you’ve suggested “The man is desperate” for an answer and quoted Psalm 82:6 to avoid stoning.

The Lord Jesus Christ was merely asserting what He was by right, and that is, The Son of God.

In verse 29 of John 10, The Lord Jesus Christ said, “My Father” as in the “only begotten Son of God” –John 1:18 from eternity “the glory which I had with thee before the world was” - John 17:5.

The “only begotten Son of God” –John 1:18 is the same as in Heb 1:8 “But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God”

Therefore, calling His “only begotten Son” –John 1:18 as
God in Hebrews 1:8 “Your throne, O God” is what the Jews
were thinking when The Lord Jesus Christ said, “I and the
Father are one.” –John 10:30, read also John 5:18.

Blasphemy, the Jews said.

Now, let’s look at how Jesus uses this passage. Jesus had just claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:25-30). The unbelieving Jews respond by charging Jesus with blasphemy, since He claimed to be God (verse 33). Jesus then quotes Psalm 82:6, reminding the Jews that the Law refers to mere men—albeit men of authority and prestige—as “gods.” Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general. If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34-36)?
What you are saying is Jesus points to others who were considered 'gods' so he too should be considered a god because he was also chosen and sent. But that does not explain why the people could not accept him as a god and threatened to stone him for blasphemy. How can it be that the almighty God is not distinguishable from a common man?

That Jesus was tried, convicted and put to death for blasphemy concludes that people durning his time and in his presence remained unconvinced. The Jews 2000 years later are still not convinced Jesus was a God. So why are the Christians still using their Jewish holy scriptures to pervert what they have emphatically rejected. Why can't the Christians stick with their NT to build their case instead of distorting the OT against the wishes of the Jewish people to whom the OT was given.

Why does Jesus quote scriptures written 700 years before his time to validate his present situation. If he was a God he does not have to hide or convince the people by pointing to some reference in the OT that points to him. He is God he can prove it!!! Not point to some prophet who spoke of his likeness to a messiah some 700 years ago.

 

[JM2C]

John like Peter were fishermen and therefore illiterate. That makes it unlikely John was the author of the Gospel of John. The people were surprised Jesus surrounded himself with ignorant illeterates.

You mean illiterate and not illeterates?

Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

“unschooled, ordinary men” simply meant that they were unschooled in the rabbinical lore and were laymen according to the Sanhedrin of course, but they could read and write/spell and therefore were not “illiterate” and “ignorant”

 

[JM2C]

What you are saying is Jesus points to others who were considered 'gods' so he too should be considered a god because he was also chosen and sent.

”He was also chosen and sent” Who were the other chosen and sent by God as the Son of God?

 

[Harikrish]

You mean illiterate and not illeterates?
“unschooled, ordinary men” simply meant that they were unschooled in the rabbinical lore and were laymen according to the Sanhedrin of course, but they could read and write/spell and therefore were not “illiterate” and “ignorant”

Sorry for the typo. If you read the bible timeline you will find the Gospel of John was written towards the end of the first century's. Mark, Luke and Matthew are the synoptic Gospels and were written between 40-60AD. But John's gospel differs substantially from the earlier gospels suggesting John was not even aware of what was written by the other disciples. Or the author was not John and therefore the accounts were all made up to reflect the changing doctrines where Jesus was gradually being exalted to a deity.

 

[JM2C]

But that does not explain why the people could not accept him as a god and threatened to stone him for blasphemy. How can it be that the almighty God is not distinguishable from a common man?

As a god? or God? Are you confused with the “a god” and “God” arguments?

 

[Nada]

I get awfully confused sometimes, about Jesus that is.
Ok...Jesus was in heaven with the spirits, and God, and he was an angel.
Hari says that Jesus was lowered to be a man, and he wasn't God, so he must have been an angel.
And John 10:30 said that Jesus said that he and the father are one, higher than a man, higher than an angel, one with God ??
Also...Jesus was before Abraham, so says John again that Jesus said, "before Abraham was born, I am !", didn't God say that to Moses ?
So Bible says "Jesus was in spirit form before Abraham was alive on earth. When Jesus came in the flesh, as the Son of God, he became lower than the angels by becoming human. When Jesus was resurrected after he had been put to death, he received immortal life. He ascended back to heaven where he is once again a spirit form."......Now I didn't say that, and someone said that Jesus took up food and ate from the servings offered to him, into a dead body, with damaged feet and hands, for proof of his torture. I added a little of that, I thought it made sense.
Oh well...doesn't make sense to me...hey Theif, wise me up !
~
'mud

Jesus is not God.When Jesus said that he and the father are one, Jesus did not mean in a literal sense,he meant a spiritual union.Jesus is God's representative and does what the father would do.Thats what in His likeness means.Jesus display's God's attributes.His qualities.Yes Jesus is an angel.A spirit form.He is God's first creation.Firstborn over all creation as it says in Colossians 1:15.When Jesus stated "I Am" before Abraham,he was merely implying that he was in existence before Abraham was.The Pharisees assumed Jesus was implying he was God.They were incorrect.When God the Almighty told Moses, "I am what I am",God was really saying, "I will become What I choose to become." God's name Yahweh,Yehowah,Jehovah means "He causes to become."Yeshua,Jesus means "Jehovah is Salvation." Many people interpret these scriptures trying to use their own understanding.One must read and study thoroughly to get a better understanding.Theres a lot to learn but once you get the ball rolling it all turns into Oh..and Aww..moments

 

[JM2C]

Sorry for the typo. If you read the bible timeline you will find the Gospel of John was written towards the end of the first century's. Mark, Luke and Matthew are the synoptic Gospels and were written between 40-60AD. But John's gospel differs substantially from the earlier gospels suggesting John was not even aware of what was written by the other disciples. Or the author was not John and therefore the accounts were all made up to reflect the changing doctrines where Jesus was gradually being exalted to a deity.

As a Christian I do have the written proof about the earthly ministry of The Lord Jesus Christ and Paul’s epistles and that is good enough for me.

However, if you have doubt about the Historicity of Jesus then there is another thread called “How certain are we that Jesus was historical?”

In this thread there is a man and his name is “LegionOnomaMoi” an Agnostic and knowledgeable about the Historicity of Jesus and you will be surprise that he is NOT arguing against it but the other way around or defending it from atheist and others.

 

[Harikrish]

As a god? or God? Are you confused with the “a god” and “God” arguments?

Either way it is unthinkable anyone would dare to stone a God.

 

[JM2C]

That Jesus was tried, convicted and put to death for blasphemy concludes that people durning his time and in his presence remained unconvinced.[/quote]convicted with false witnesses

Mt 26:59 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death.

And please read the following verses.

 

[JM2C]

Either way it is unthinkable anyone would dare to stone a God.

Jn 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,

 

[JM2C]

When Jesus stated "I Am" before Abraham,he was merely implying that he was in existence before Abraham was.
The Pharisees assumed Jesus was implying he was God.
They were incorrect.
When God the Almighty told Moses, "I am what I am",God was really saying, "I will become What I choose to become."

In Greek, the words recorded in John 8:58 are "'prin abraam genesthai ego eimi." Literally, this is "Before Abraham was existing, I am." "Ego eimi" is literally, "I am." This is the present tense. To say "I have been" is to use the perfect tense. In Greek, this would have been "aemane." But Jesus didn't use it here. He used the present tense, "ego eimi" which is "I am." -BA

 

[Harikrish]

In Greek, the words recorded in John 8:58 are "'prin abraam genesthai ego eimi." Literally, this is "Before Abraham was existing, I am." "Ego eimi" is literally, "I am." This is the present tense. To say "I have been" is to use the perfect tense. In Greek, this would have been "aemane." But Jesus didn't use it here. He used the present tense, "ego eimi" which is "I am." -BA

Adam and family was before Abraham.so what!!!

 

[JM2C]

Many people interpret these scriptures trying to use their own understanding.

Really?

Jesus is definitely not God.There is so much proof that points to this.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

JW predicted the end of the world so many times and failed, are they God? NO!

Are they prophets of God? NO!

Read and Understand:

Dt 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”

Dt 18:21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?”

Dt 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

What is that again? “Many people interpret these scriptures trying to use their own understanding.”

 

[JM2C]

Adam and family was before Abraham.so what!!!

and your argument is.......