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Featured Did God Want Jesus to be crucified?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Everything Jesus said and did was 100% God's will. Jesus said that doing His Father's will was His food and drink. The only reason He came was to do His Father's will, to fulfill all righteousness.
     
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  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Jesus did not crucify himself.
     
  3. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    So? What's your point?
     
  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Did you give up thinking?
    You said
    Did Jesus crucify himself, according to your superior whatever?
     
  5. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    If you have read the Gospels then you know what I think. I think it happened just as it is written.
     
  6. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    God actually inserted a trick law into the Mosaic Law for the sake of this. This was, as Paul explains, so that Christ could be cursed in our steads. The law which had no function at all except targeting the killing of Messiah stated that anyone hung on wood would be cursed. In that way, even a sinless, perfect human being could be cursed.
     
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  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    If God's will was for Jesus to be crucified then the ones doing the deed were doing God's will and it was THEY who crucified Jesus.
     
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  8. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Did Jesus make the Romans crucify him?
     
  9. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    It was the whole point of Christ being sent to earth.
     
    #29 Enoch07, Oct 16, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
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  10. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Jesus also didn't tempt Himself but it was God's will that Satan tempt Him. You're not making much sense. Just because someone else nailed Jesus to the cross does not mean God's will was not fulfilled.
     
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  11. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    No, they still had a choice.

    If the Romans would not have killed him someone else afraid of Jesus's influence would have killed him.
     
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    YOU said, "Jesus always did the will of God". Did you not say that?
     
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  13. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Except that the suffering servant in 53 is the Hebrew people.

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  14. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    That is taken out of context. Read the text from the top. We have how to handle murdered people, and how to handle criminals condemned to death, don't leave them up to be a blasphemy to God, and rotting corpses obviously defile the land.

    22 If a man commits a sin for which he is sentenced to death, and he is put to death, you shall [then] hang him on a pole.

    23 But you shall not leave his body on the pole overnight. Rather, you shall bury him on that [same] day, for a hanging [human corpse] is a blasphemy of God, and you shall not defile your land, which the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.

    Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 21 (Parshah Shoftim and Ki Teitzei)

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  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In my opinion that is the dumbest argument ever:
    1. They did not fulfill Isaiah 53:1 which links with Isaiah 28:9-19 (rumor to rumor), and the 'arm of the lord' in Isaiah 52:10 (Yeshuat Eloeinhu) + Psalms 98
    2. They were seen as a majestic nation, which was desired by many; they still are presented as a chosen people, which is desired by many.
    3. They are not in a depressed state, and not disliked by people; that is a self loathing statement, people like the Jews.
    4. They have not carried anyone's suffering or sins; they have been cursed, yet not that anyone acknowledges that, and sees them as accursed.
    5. They have not been pierced for anyone's sins, they've not been crushed/put to death/tortured as a sin offering for anyone else.
    6. They have not had everyone's sins put on them; tho they might have helped confuse all the sheep, yet they're not directly responsible.
    7. They have not been silent as they were slaughtered, neither was it done in the form of a sin offering.
    8. The disobedience of the 'people' is the Hebrew people; yet then they can't be the person who is cut off from the land of the living for their sins.
    9. They were not put to death with the wicked or rich, and are clearly not free of violence or deceit.
    10. They were put to death for part of the plan, yet not as a sin offering.
    11. They haven't carried anyone's sins, their knowledge has not lead many to righteousness, neither have they arrived at the light from their actions of being put to death.
    12. They haven't got an inheritance to share with the strong, they've not continued teaching the things of God until death, and then acted as an intercessor for people's sins.
    If we just ignore all contexts of the chapter, then maybe we could make it fit in my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #35 wizanda, Oct 17, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017
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  16. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Why I should even bother answer an anti-Christian - is my error this time. Such as you ignore what the Christian teachings are, and I frankly don't care. Still, here is what the Christian scriptures say:
    Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​
    Also, from the OT - different translations
    Deuteronomy 21: 23 His body shall not remain upon the tree, but shall be buried the same day: for he is accursed of God that hangeth on a tree: and thou shalt not defile thy land, which the Lord thy God shall give thee in possession. (DRC)​
    In this then, we have two witnesses to my statement, one from the OT and one from Paul. That your translation doesn't say this directly, while the DRC and others state this clearly and also corroborate Paul's interpretation of this, is enough to prove my point. Even modern English translations contain this:
    ESV: 23 his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God. You shall not defile your land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance.​
    Here the man hung on a tree it says clearly, followed by "or a hanged man is cursed by God." So, a man hung on a tree is cursed; but, I don't expect you to agree. And, I don't care. Let the reader read, let the reader meditate on the scriptures and see if what I quote is according to scripture, all scripture.

     
  17. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Jewish people.

    Read it in context. Look at 52.

    Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

    Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

    Isa 52:3 For thus saith YHVH, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

    Isa 52:4 For thus saith the YHVH, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

    Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith YHVH, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

    Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

    Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for YHVH hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

    Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

    Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for YHVH will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

    Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

    Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHVH revealed? (See Isa 52:9-13.)

    Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHVH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHVH.

    Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

    Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

    See also
    Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20

    The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see
    Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22.

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  18. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    That is the JEWISH translation from a JEWISH site, of their OWN text.

    And I might add, - did you miss that it starts with If a man commit a sin for which he is condemned to death...?

    Was Jesus out there committing sin? Was Jesus condemned to death for SINS he commited??? NOPE!

    Not about Jesus!

    *
     
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  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Isaiah 52:1-9 is a different timeline, as no longer shall uncircumcised enter Jerusalem, only those clean shall enter, so that is Messianic age time.
    Isaiah 52:10 has Yeshua Elohim at the end of it (salvation from our God), so it is specifically stating that Yeshua is the servant listed, not Israel.
    This is where sheep have been led astray; that says Jacob is his servant; not the generations to come, it is the promise made to Jacob that shall be upheld... The people are under a curse; not some chosen vessel anymore.

    Isaiah 43:28 Therefore I will profane the princes of the sanctuary; and I will make Jacob a curse, and Israel an insult.”

    Isaiah 65:15 You will leave your name for a curse to my chosen; and the Lord Yahweh will kill you. He will call his servants by another name,

    Quoting every servant reference out of context, like many do with the Servant songs is beyond ridiculous to me, and have shown on here many times, where it is flawed logic.

    Considering Isaiah 52:10 states Yeshuat Eloheinu, and in Isaiah 52:14 it has the word anointed in the Dead Sea Scrolls version, then it specified Yeshua as the Servant by name in the text, making up stuff using false equivocation is shoddy to say the least in my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  20. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Paul was educated at the feet of a Pharisee. His writing teach us more than any of the other apostles. You speak of a translation site for Jews. I say, 2000 years ago, I think they knew more than they do today having rejected Messiah.

    I answered, and in true fashion you reject the clear directives of both Paul and of our scholars by whom we have many many fine translations, not only in English, but likewise in many other languages that all state the same that the ones I quoted do.

    So, keep doing what you want. We have our faith apart from the infidels, the apostates from God, etc.Without the ransom in Christ all you have is an assured alienation from God.
     
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