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Featured Did God Want Jesus to be crucified?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Baloney - the Bible says in multiple places that the suffering servant is Israel.

    And that is also what the Jews say it says, and is about.

    The rest of you are just making things out of the wind.

    And baloney to that Yashua named in it.

    It is yeshû‛âh feminine passive participle, = deliverance, salvation, victory , etc.

    Not even the Christian Bibles dare fudge that into the name of Jesus. And you know they would if they thought they could.

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  2. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    You don't seem to get that it doesn't matter how many times Christians mistranslate, or twist, Jewish texts, and claim they are correct. - Only the Jews themselves, knowing their own texts, and the Hebrew language, are correct.

    The rest of you just want to fudge the texts to make it look like Jesus.

    And I might add that you don't know whom actually wrote ANY of your Christian gospels, or if anything in those later texts are even accurate.

    And it is not a "translation site for Jews," it is a Jewish site with both the Hebrew and THEIR translations for English speakers.

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  3. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Bye!
     
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  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Prove it, by being specific within each reference, and you will fail, as each reference has a specific item listed; if we wish to ignore contexts then that hypothesis can fit.
    The people who've been cut off, and blinded to understanding according to the text, don't have a clue what is going on (Isaiah 29:9-14).
    It is 'Salvation from our God', which is a specific metaphor, as Yeshua is the spirit of the Lord, thus it isn't only a name it is a concept.
    His name was Yeshua, which we find multiple symbolic references for throughout the Tanakh. :innocent:
     
  5. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but of course He didn't nail Himself to a cross. I never said or implied that. He did God's will constantly and it was God's will (obviously) that someone else nail Him to the cross.
     
  6. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I can't help but conclude that Ingledsva has had some hideous experience in her life that has turned her totally against God. She will have to come to terms with whatever it is some day. In the meantime I am very seriously considering putting her on ignore. I tire of all the hatred of all things Christian from her without just cause.
     
  7. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Death is an interesting topic and not one we have much of a clue about. That aspect of society that should have a clue are just as clueless. Since they should have some insight and clearly they don't well then we can ask such questions till someday we have a bit of clarity.
     
  8. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    Knowing God has perfect knowledge of everything which has happened and will happen on the time line of His creation, it is logical to assume God knew in advance what would happen. Then, assuming Jesus was God and not the son of God, He would not only know what would happen, He would expect it to happen to Him. It did not glorify him, it fulfilled His purpose, which was to give testimony to His chosen people. Satan's rebellion in heaven has had dire consequences.
     
  9. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    None of this changes any of the facts I gave you. No Jesus in the text.

    I'll take the Hebrew translation over you folks whom twist it . They know their own language.

    Also - the "cut off " stuff is just bull. Read the whole Tanakh.

    It is written in a style of - they did wrong and YHVH was angry, and they lost a war, or went into captivity, etc. However, it always has YHVH redeeming them. And their covenant with YHVH is forever.

    It is only people trying to stand on top of their religion, - Christians, etc. - that claim they are lost, and that the JEWISH messiah is Jesus, (even though he doesn't fulfill the prophecies,) and that Christianity is the Messiah's, and God's, new religion. Baloney!

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  10. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    First - don't make up crap about me.

    Second - it is not hatred to challenge Christian twisting of another religion's texts.

    And I might add that this is a DEBATE site. Were you expecting to just proselytize? No challenge to what you say?

    You are quite capable of a rebuttal, - instead of this crap, - if you have proof contrary to what I am saying.

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  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Then why did he pray for it to be taken from him? Why did he ask God why he had abandoned him?

    Also the elephant in the room - Supposedly this God is omnipotent and everlasting. If Jesus was God and God can't actually die, - then OBVIOUSLY there would be no actual sacrifice for sin.

    Also - Tanakh has no "Satan's rebellion in heaven."

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  12. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In my opinion:
    Sorry you did not provide facts, you gave conjecture and beliefs, that can be clearly shown wrong by the timeline, context, and statements within the text.
    Since his name was Yeshua, not a made up transliterated version to fit with other religions; it is equivalent to H3444 (Salvation) and his full Hebrew name Yehoshua (H3091).
    This is the Hebraic version, Yeshua fits within a Hebraic belief system; just not a Hellenized one.
    Read it multiple times, Deuteronomy 28, Leviticus 26 are the Curse stated by Moses, this took affect at the 2nd temple destruction as history shows, which Yeshua stated was because of ignoring him (Luke 19:41-44), as the text relays (Jeremiah 25:30-38, Zechariah 11).
    If we read everything pertaining to this, there is a remnant that will return who have accepted the Messiah, and the Marvelous Work of the Lord (Zechariah 8:1-17, Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23:1-8).

    There are multiple covenants, and most are currently disannulled...
    • Sinai Covenant was broken (Jeremiah 31:32).
    • Abrahamic Covenant was broken when they chose to pay for its nullification with 30 pieces of silver into the Potter's Field in the House of Israel (Zechariah 11).
    • Arron & David covenant to maintain prophets and kings exists; yet not for the lost sheep who murder them.
    • Covenant made with nature, animals (Hosea 2:18), and the Everlasting Covenant of Jeremiah 31 shall happen when the Messianic age happens.
    Actually people who read, and comprehend the text properly with all allocations of what is specified can come to that decision like myself; prefer all the facts, so if you know otherwise show where with evidence, not just keep saying baloney, and provide conjecture to make claims.
    Unfortunately that is very short sighted, only seeing prophecies that relate to the Messianic age as fulfillment of the Messiah shows a lack of reading comprehension.

    Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 52:14 in the Dead Sea Scrolls version, both have the word Messiah/Anointed, these are the only word specific Messianic text, and both happened to Yeshua; no one else could cut off Jerusalem, and have these fulfillments, unless they truly were the Messiah, as these are signs according to Isaiah that a remnant will return (Isaiah 7 + Isaiah 8).
    Christianity is established by Paul, John, and Simon the stone (petros), unfortunately that is part of the prophesied deception, which contradicts the Tanakh, and Yeshua in my opinion. :innocent:
     
  13. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Those posts that actively oppose Christ and His teaching I have very little respect for. I think your posts fall well into that category. I see you as an opponent to Christ - which puts you on the wrong side, as far as I'm concerned. As long as you choose to reside there you can expect Christians to have very little respect for your posts/opinions.

    No, I do not think anything you type on here is a fact. It may be a fact in your mind but that is the only place it is a fact. The fact that you think it is a fact is a fact and that boils down to just being your adverse opinion.

    Psalm 79
    8 Do not hold against us the sins of past generations;

    may your mercy come quickly to meet us,

    for we are in desperate need.

    9 Help us, God our Savior,

    for the glory of your name;

    deliver us and forgive our sins

    for your name’s sake.

    Matthew 6
    14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.



    Therefore, we, as Christians, forgive you for the evil you post against us. May God bless you and cause His face to shine upon you for good and not for evil.
     
  14. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    The argument can be made philosophically, just not biblically.

    Christ was crucified in God's mind before Adam and Eve were born, per the scriptures.
     
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  15. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    Assuming Jesus was God and not the son of God, much of the NT gospels are in error. The son of God salvation message promoted by gospel authors is not true, it was invented by Jesus movement leaders to promote Christianity. To derive at this conclusion, research is required. If you do it, you'll find the gospels were written 45 to 65 years after Jesus was murdered. They were not Jewish, did not live in areas were the events happened, and were not eyewitnesses. They depended on gossip or rumors for their information about Jesus.
     
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  16. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    You have a very strange idea of what conjecture is.

    I quoted straight from the text, and used the translation by the people whose text it is.

    You on the other hand are putting out what YOU believe, along with Christianized twistings, etc., and expecting us to just run with it.

    You are going against the translation from both the Jewish and Christian scholars, on that sentence.

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  17. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    LOL! I'm using the Hebrew language, and related scholarly exegesis.

    You on the other hand, are twisting another religion's texts, and calling me evil for pointing out you error.

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  18. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Apparently you haven't read my posts. I am well aware of the takeover of what Jesus taught, by later people, whom gave him a vergin birth because they misunderstood Isaiah, etc.

    Why would you assume Jesus is God? If he existed - He was a Jewish teacher and would have taught ONE YHVH only.

    Nowhere do we have him making a claim to be God. Not even in the later Christian texts.

    Where are you coming up with that, "His purpose, which was to give testimony to His chosen people." ?

    The Jewish Messiah is not a god, and you can go to one of their sites and read the prophecies which the Messiah must do. Jesus does not fulfill them.

    Also - again, - where are you coming up with - "Satan's rebellion in heaven." That is not in Tanakh.

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  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Conjecture: an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information. - conjecture define - Google Search
    In my opinion:

    So far you're not just quoting text, you've been placing things outside of contexts, and then saying this fits with this ideology; even when shown evidence that there are flaws in logic...

    You've made Isaiah 53 about 'Hebrew people'; which was a later Jewish thought, which was strongly rejected to begin.

    You're using Isaiah 52:1-9 interlink with Isaiah 53, when it has a different timeline mentioned in the text, it is a time when 'no circumcised will come into the land' and 'where the people shall know the Lord is the one who speaks', which means it is in the Messianic age time, not before it.
    I don't expect anyone to run with things, i expect people to ask questions if they don't understand the contexts that are being applied; yet generally people just put their own perspective back again, and don't really listen to the ideas presented.
    Yeshua said that he was the Lord of David (Matthew 22:41-46), that Israel was his House (Matthew 10:25), that the temple was his house of prayer (Matthew 21:13), etc.
    No one misunderstood Isaiah other than the Jews trying to say it was only a young woman, not a virgin; it can mean both, and fits with the prophetic nature to the statements provided.
    This is the problem with not listening, you've just repeated the same argument i've already explained is flawed in the last post; you've ignored the statements and then argue the same with the next person.

    The word Messiah/Anointed is found in two places, Isaiah 52:14 (Dead Sea Scrolls Version) and Daniel 9:26, both happened to Yeshua...

    The rest of the Messianic age prophecies as Yeshua, and the prophets state are to happen later, not at the same time in my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #59 wizanda, Oct 19, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
  20. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    If you read gospels prior to the NT, you find Jesus making references to the "Kingdom of Heaven" as if he had complete understanding. Then, if you read the OT you find references to the Messiah, as a prediction of Jesus, the "Jewish savior." As for Satan, who else would he be but a rebellious angel? As for my stories about Satan's rebellion in heaven, I have posted them on this forum. I admit to no Bible references for them. I have had dream revelations about God and the universe which don't fit with traditional theology, but make a lot of sense as an explanation for why God created the universe, communicated with humans, and has remained absent from our world. There are other things most people don't know about God, etc. There are twelve angels in heaven, Satan is number thirteen, paradise happened during the dinosaur era, and God is not pleased with humans. He expected the earth to remain unmolested after the fall of paradise. It revolves around "free will." The main reason for God's displeasure with humans is because they don't obey His commandments. As for the universe, God didn't make it for humans, He made it as a prison for Satan. Humans are collateral damage.

    As for confirmation of NT gospel errors, I suggest reading a formidable book, Jesus Before the Gospels by Bart C. Ehrman. There are other references which mention errors in the NT gospels. Apparently, it is a well kept secret about the Bible.

    For happiness, you're better off accepting the Christian salvation story. Have a nice day.
     
    #60 Repox, Oct 20, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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