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Featured Did God Want Jesus to be crucified?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Why would I accept the Christian story? I'm not Christian.

    And if you are not finding the information in Tanakh, then you and others are making it up. Changing Jewish texts.

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  2. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Kind of. True, the Romans don't need much motivation to go on a killing spree, but the area had been volatile since before the Romans, and they got there trigger happy to begin with, and Jesus' tantrum at the Temple didn't help matters.
     
  3. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Bull, go to any Jewish site and read up on it.

    We have had this discussion before - Poetic, and reference to past events.

    Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

    Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

    Isa 52:4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime (in the past) into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

    Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

    Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for YHVH hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

    Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

    Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for YHVH will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

    Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

    Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHVH revealed? (See Isa 52:9-13.)

    Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHVH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHVH.

    Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

    Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.


    It doesn't matter how you twist it - the suffering servant in these is ISRAEL.

    No he didn't! Someone writing that text long after his death, - misunderstood a text about King David and YHVH.

    "In this passage the first word (LORD) in Hebrew is the four-letter (yud-hai-vav-hai) sacred name of G-d. However the second (Lord) is a completely different word spelled (aleph-dalet-nun-yud). ..."

    This “Lord” (in blue) which is not entirely capitalized above is the Hebrew word “adoni,”(pronounced adonee), with a “chirik” vowel under the letter yud. It means “to my master” or “to my lord” with a lower case “L” like the “lord of the manor.”

    "Psalm 110 was composed in the third person to be sung by the Levites, and thus reflects their point of view, for they would call their king “my master – adoni.” In other words, the Levites are saying that “God spoke to our master (King David). Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

    https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/psalm-110-a-jewish-perspective/

    Pure baloney - it say certain things will happen before the child knows the difference between good and evil. The two kings they are at war with die. OBVIOUSLY not some future Jesus. The child was born then to a young woman. No virgin birth.

    I've already provided the Jewish Hebrew information showing this means salvation. And I pointed out that the CHRISTIAN scholars agree with the Jewish scholars. It doesn't matter if you don't.

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  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Rabbis' Dilemma: A Look at Isaiah 53 - Jews for Jesus
    We had the discussion, showed how the logic was flawed, and then you go back to the same as before, ignoring any objections to your points. :rolleyes:
    If you want to go back to Israel being the servant regardless of context; that is your choice, you can create what ever ideology you want to believe, and stick with it.
    We have the same statement in all 3 Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 22:41-46, Mark 12:35-37, Luke 20:41-44), therefore there is reason to question if it was his speech.
    Not sure where the Psalms are written in third person, most seem to be David writing poetically to the Lord himself; he doesn't write for others to speak it, he writes from his heart....

    Yet if you can show that clearly, would be interested in learning where that happens.
    So we know at a minimum the child shall be a teen after the northern kingdom will be taken; Isaiah 7:8 says it is at least 65 years in the future before Ephraim is taken....

    So we're dealing with a future prophetic statement, any time after Israel has been taken.
    The word anointed/messiah (H4899 מָשִׁיחַ mâshı̂yach) does not mean salvation...

    When dealing with Messianic prophecy, we should look for the actual word Messiah, and see what is prophesied.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  5. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Same -old! - same-old!

    I stick to the actual Hebrew language and translations and you folks try to twist them.

    It doesn't matter what "messianic" CONVERTED Jews think after listening to Christian twisting, - like virgin births, and "Lucifers" that aren't even in Isaiah, and autonomous evil Satan, etc. They drank the Kool-Aid.

    The word we are discussing as SALVATION in that text, was translated as salvation, by BOTH Christian AND Jewish scholars. You are the one that is wrong.

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  6. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I figured God reasons that if he abuses his son from the "disease" he invented to make everyone's life miserable, through the serpent he put in the garden on a forbidden trees that he put there but nobody can have, then people will see how good he is and follow him.
     
  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    We're not discussing the word Salvation (H3444) to then discuss the concept of the word Messiah (H4899). :rolleyes:

    To establish Messianic prophecy we should deal with the specific word 'Messiah' which we find in two places prophetically in the Dead Sea Scrolls on Isaiah 52:14, which then defines who the Servant is, which is why Isaiah 53 has always been seen as Messianic, and Daniel 9:26, which is also about the Messiah.

    Both then contextually fit together, the Messiah is cut off from the land of the living, as happened.
    So basically you're saying everyone is insane other than you, and with your lack of capabilities at even listening properly or recognizing when you've been showed to be flawed in logical understanding, this repeatedly makes no sense sorry.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  8. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    You can go on-and-on-and on about this, - and it won't change a thing.

    In the sentence we are discussing, - all of the experts, Jewish, Christian, and other, have all translated the word as salvation.

    See # 63.

    52(53) Verse by Verse with commentary - https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-53-verse-verse/

    Psa 98:1 A Psalm. O sing unto YHVH a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.

    Psa 98:2 YHVH hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.

    Psa 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

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    #68 Ingledsva, Oct 23, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    So you don't listen, even when shown that wasn't what we were talking about...
    OK we will swap to the bits you want to talk about instead:

    Psalms 98:3 He has remembered his loving kindness and his faithfulness toward the house of Israel. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu).

    Isaiah 52:10 Yahweh has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu).

    These lines of text only define that the word Yeshuah (H3444) is a symbolic reference to Yeshua in some places.

    In both these it expresses that we shall physically see the Salvation from our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu), this happened in the person of Yeshua....

    It isn't a reference only to a name, and metaphoric concept, yet the roots are Yeshua Elohim, thus implies Yeshua was a of a divine nature sent down here, as he stated.

    As we go over the Yeshua (H3444) references within Isaiah especially, it implies that 'YHVH shall become Yeshua' in Isaiah 12:2, that 'Yeshua shall be a light unto the Gentiles' (Isaiah 49:6), in Isaiah 25:9, 'we shall physically see the Salvation from YHVH'.

    People would translate it to Salvation, as that is what Yeshua's name means; most Hebrew names are also spiritual references, reading them only one way is shortsightedness.

    To be clear, these are not name references in the Tanakh, they're metaphoric descriptors, that expand across the book to define that YHVH shall be seen physically manifest in the Servant/Messiah he sends to fulfill the plan.
    As for dealing with the website posted much of it is made up, not matching context, over exaggerating, and adding loads of statements to make it fit, so not going to waste time detailing each.

    In my opinion
    . :innocent:
     
    #69 wizanda, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  10. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Like I said - You can go on-and-on adding your Christianized views to JEWISH texts, - and you will still be wrong.

    They are right concerning their texts, - and you are wrong.

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  11. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In my opinion:

    The idea you think it is either of those understandings, shows you're not aware of what you're talking about...

    The Jews according to the text have been blinded to understanding its meanings (Isaiah 29:9-14) with them currently cut off.

    Whereas Christianity is established by the Pharisees John, Paul and Simon the stone with them going directly against Yeshua's teachings.
    If you could even show this, I'm always open to learning; so far you post a load of text with bits in colour, don't listen when corrected, and continue as if you know everything.
    Show with evidence, as so far you have not... Anyways guess it isn't worth replying anymore, as you're not willing to look at any alternative view.

    Peace B with U :innocent:
     
  12. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    I have shown the scholarly view of BOTH Jewish and Christian scholars on that word, in that text.

    You on the other hand have shown no actual evidence for your views. You are pushing your view of Christianized teachings onto Jewish texts.

    You are wrong.

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