Descendants of Canaan....cursed by God

[fallingblood]

I do take the genesis account to be historical so i dont have problem with Noah and his 3 sons as being the starting point of all nations today...there is evidence for that

Outside the Bible, there is no evidence for that. But please, if you can show me some credible sources, I would be more than happy to research it a little more.

but i have to ask, if you dont think the genesis account is historical, then why would you accept even Abraham?

I don't think the first 12 chapters, or up to chapter 12, is historical. The reason being that it has long been considered to be pseudo history or prehistory. Basically, it was a way to bring the Jews up to date from the creation of man.

I find the rest of Genesis to be semi-historical, as in the sense that it does contain some historical truth, but should not be taken alone.

 

[james2ko]

Just out of curiosity,.....Were the Egyptians idolators, at the time that Abraham impregnated Sarah's Egyptian 'hand maiden'?

Josephus tells us while Abraham was in Egypt, he had great influence on the Egyptian leaders and taught them arithmetic, astronomy and the ways of the true God. The Egyptians had much respect for him. Although, he probably didn't convert every one, his influence was most likely widespread. (Antiquities I. VIII, 1, 2)

Abraham went from Mesopotamia to Canaan, down to Egypt, then back to Canaan, where he bore Ishmael, all in a span of 11 years (compare Gen 12:4 with Gen 16:16). I have yet to find a source indicating how much time he spent in Egypt and how long his spiritual influence lasted. If someone has a source, please share it.

 

[fallingblood]

Josephus tells us while Abraham was in Egypt, he had great influence on the Egyptian leaders and taught them arithmetic, astronomy and the ways of the true God. The Egyptians had much respect for him. Although, he probably didn't convert every one, his influence was most likely widespread. (Antiquities I. VIII, 1, 2)

Abraham went from Mesopotamia to Canaan, down to Egypt, then back to Canaan, where he bore Ishmael, all in a span of 11 years (compare Gen 12:4 with Gen 16:16). I have yet to find a source indicating how much time he spent in Egypt and how long his spiritual influence lasted. If someone has a source, please share it.

I would be wary of Josephus regarding Moses. All we can really take from him on the subject is pure tradition. Since the time period between the two is so vast, Josephus is not the best source.

 

[james2ko]

I would be wary of Josephus regarding Moses. All we can really take from him on the subject is pure tradition. Since the time period between the two is so vast, Josephus is not the best source.

I realize Josephus is not gospel but that's all we have outside of the bible regarding the question asked about Abraham

 

[Ben Masada]

Does this curse still exist today? Who are these descendants? Should descendants of Shem or Japheth marry the descendants of Canaan, today?

IMO, the answer is that they have become the Gentiles in general. The Canaanites of then could not marry the descendantes of Shem, who took possession of the Land of Canaan, and eventally, Abraham came from, form a people of his own in the Israelites. This would turn the descendants of Shem into Gentiles. The descendants of Japheth migrated to the north where they formed the Greek People. As selection went on, of Abraham was born Isaac whom the promise was made, which would turn all the other descendants of Abraham into Gentiles. Of Isaac were born two sons. One, Jacob, gave origin to the Israelites, who would turn his brother Esav into a nation of Gentiles. Jacob grew into a group of tribes named Israelites which a few years later split into ten and two kingdoms. Ten Tribes in the North and two in the South. The Ten Tribes turned into Gentiles with the incursions of Assyria, and the Two Tribes, Judah and Benjamin became the Jewish People of today plus the converts from among the Gentiles.
Ben

 

[Thorwald Johansen]

IMO, the answer is that they have become the Gentiles in general. The Canaanites of then could not marry the descendantes of Shem, who took possession of the Land of Canaan, and eventally, Abraham came from, form a people of his own in the Israelites. This would turn the descendants of Shem into Gentiles. The descendants of Japheth migrated to the north where they formed the Greek People. As selection went on, of Abraham was born Isaac whom the promise was made, which would turn all the other descendants of Abraham into Gentiles. Of Isaac were born two sons. One, Jacob, gave origin to the Israelites, who would turn his brother Esav into a nation of Gentiles. Jacob grew into a group of tribes named Israelites which a few years later split into ten and two kingdoms. Ten Tribes in the North and two in the South. The Ten Tribes turned into Gentiles with the incursions of Assyria, and the Two Tribes, Judah and Benjamin became the Jewish People of today plus the converts from among the Gentiles.
Ben

I have a problem with "The ten tribes turned into gentiles." The Israelite tribes were anointed by God. How do we know how God 'perceives' these ten tribes that you speak of (above)? What proof do we have, that God has forsaken them and their descendants? Perhaps God wanted this 'split' in the Israelite tribes, to take place. What if God wanted to make these 'lost tribes', Christians?

 

[Ben Masada]

I have a problem with "The ten tribes turned into gentiles." The Israelite tribes were anointed by God. How do we know how God 'perceives' these ten tribes that you speak of (above)? What proof do we have, that God has forsaken them and their descendants? Perhaps God wanted this 'split' in the Israelite tribes, to take place. What if God wanted to make these 'lost tribes', Christians?

If you are honest with your question, I will make it my pleasure to prove to you that God has removed them from the classification of His People and turned them into Gentiles too. The proof is in Psalm 78:67-69, when God forever rejected the Tent of Joseph and confirmed that of Judah on behalf of David whom He had promised a Tribe to serve as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I King 11:36) Then, Jeremiah read the text and understood the same as he declared under prophetic inspiration that as long as the Lord which gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of he moon and of the stars for a light by night, the seed of Israel shall cease from being a nation before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35,36) The seed of Israel here is meant Judah, because this was the seed which Israel, the fallen virgin, according to Amos 5:2 gave birth, according to Isaiah 7:14,15,22; 8:8. That's Judah identified by name, by Isaiah himself.
Ben

 

[Thorwald Johansen]

If you are honest with your question, I will make it my pleasure to prove to you that God has removed them from the classification of His People and turned them into Gentiles too. The proof is in Psalm 78:67-69, when God forever rejected the Tent of Joseph and confirmed that of Judah on behalf of David whom He had promised a Tribe to serve as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I King 11:36) Then, Jeremiah read the text and understood the same as he declared under prophetic inspiration that as long as the Lord which gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of he moon and of the stars for a light by night, the seed of Israel shall cease from being a nation before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35,36) The seed of Israel here is meant Judah, because this was the seed which Israel, the fallen virgin, according to Amos 5:2 gave birth, according to Isaiah 7:14,15,22; 8:8. That's Judah identified by name, by Isaiah himself.
Ben

Thank you for your reply. The scripture 'underlined above', is true, as witnessed today. You will note, that it does not say that God will 'forsake' the other tribes, and destroy their descendancy, or take away their anointment of being 'the chosen children of God'. The above scripture simply states, that they will cease to be recognized as a nation (ie. twelve tribes in one nation). In the Bible, it is written, that, "All Israel shall be saved."

 

[weirdpuckett]

Nope. Both genealogies refer to Joseph. It would have been pointless to mentions Mary's genealogy as it would have shown nothing. More so, both claim to go through Joseph.

Wrong! Read carefully the genealogies in Matt 1 and luke 3 . . .look at david and the son of David in both-notice how one includes "Nathan" and the other "solomon"? two different sons of David . . .How then can they both be the genealogy of Joseph?

 

[weirdpuckett]

If you are honest with your question, I will make it my pleasure to prove to you that God has removed them from the classification of His People and turned them into Gentiles too. The proof is in Psalm 78:67-69, when God forever rejected the Tent of Joseph and confirmed that of Judah on behalf of David whom He had promised a Tribe to serve as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I King 11:36) Then, Jeremiah read the text and understood the same as he declared under prophetic inspiration that as long as the Lord which gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of he moon and of the stars for a light by night, the seed of Israel shall cease from being a nation before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35,36) The seed of Israel here is meant Judah, because this was the seed which Israel, the fallen virgin, according to Amos 5:2 gave birth, according to Isaiah 7:14,15,22; 8:8. That's Judah identified by name, by Isaiah himself.
Ben

The tribe of Judah would supply a King to sit as ruler over "Israel" (who God changed Jacobs name to ) on a throne that would reign "forever" . ..do you take into account the word "forever" ?-God is referring to the "lion of the tribe of Judah"-Jesus -also in psalms 110(read the whole psalm carefully) David himself says "The Lord says to my Lord"- this means that the Psalm pertains to someone other than David that God is making these promises to . . . .David says of this one He will "rule" with a "sceptor" (King) and He will be a priest" forever" so He is a "KING/PRIEST" . . .In the order of "Melchizedek" . . .are you getting it ? Genesis 14:18 Shows this "Melchizedek" (Melchi ="King" in Hebrew -"Zadok"=righteous)of "
Salem (salem ="peace) This Melchizedek brought bread and wine and blessings and took a tithe (tenth) are you seeing who this Melchizedek is? Anyone? . . .. ????

 

[Wallace22]

James2ko I would appreciate it if you did not post lies. The Curse of Canaan is what it says "The Curse of Canaan" NOT the Curse of Phut, Mizraim or Cush. Only the Descendants of Canaan has been cursed like Noah said! Thanks!

 

[outhouse]

The genealogy in the bible has never ever been proven to be correct in any way shape or form.

There is no curse because its almost certain many never existed outside of scripture

James2ko I would appreciate it if you did not post lies

this is not acceptable here.

like Noah said!

Noah has ZERO historicity and is part of a legend that dates thousands of years before hebrews were even a culture.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

There probably never were a Ham or Canaan in the first place...

 

[outhouse]

There probably never were a Ham or Canaan in the first place...

figuring ancient hebrews culture started roughly around 1250BC at the earliest and legends were passed down through oral tradition there would be no accuracy beyond the cultures beginnings.

Add to the fact many of the legends were not passed down orally but created at a later date that reflects the current authors times and culture to pass on his theology and morals makes it highly unlikely the genealogy is any where near accurate.

 

[outhouse]

The Legends of Genesis: V. Jahvist, Elohist, Jehovist, the Later Collections

this link gives the real history behind how the legends were put together as far as we know

 

[gnostic]

I realize Josephus is not gospel but that's all we have outside of the bible regarding the question asked about Abraham

I would not call the gospels as being historical or factual. But yes, Josephus is not reliable historian.

 

[glyphkenn]

I'll attempt to answer this one and perhaps answer the others as time permits.

Originally the sons of Canaan settled in Palestine. Canaan, remember, was the firstborn of IIam. Canaan’s descendant and this includes the other sons of Ham-were to be "servant of servants" ( Gen. 9: 2 5 ) . Their children are to serve both Shem and Japheth (verses 26, 2 7 ) .

There is nothing wrong with serving we all have to learn to serve. Shem and Japheth must become God’s servants,too. That is why Canaan is called a "servant of servants." Many have quoted this in direct reference to the Negro. As brothers of Canaan, the Negroes have shared the same position in life, but Negroes are not Canaanites.The Canaanites were great traffickers of old. The word Canaanite in Zech. 14:21 is, in fact, translated as "trafficker" in the Jewish translation.

The Sidonians, descendants of Canaan, were famous see-men in the days of Solomon. The Greeks called them "Phoenicians." But the Phoenicians called themselves “Kna” or“Knana,” meaning Canaanite. (See Smith’s Bible Dictionary). When Israel entered the land of Palestine under Joshua, whole tribes of the Canaanites were destroyed or driven out of central Palestine (Judges 3: 1-4) because some of the Canaanites were extremely degenerate in their morals.

Notice Gen. 10:18, "Afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad." Where did they journey? The Canaanites settled the island of Malta and parts of Sicily, Southern Italy,Sardinia, North Africa and even Southern Spain and Portugal, where the sons of Javan were already living. (See Ency. Brit., articles, "Malta," "Sicily," "Carth- age," etc.)

Most people are familiar with the Phoenicians from grade and high school days. In North Africa the Canaanites are called Moors a name probably derived from Amors, the Hebrew form of "Amorites." From these lands they have spread into North and South America since the days of Columbus. The Portuguese--of mixed Canaanite and Tarshish stock-have settled much of Brazil. And the Sicilians are thick in big cities in America. The underworld "Mafia" organization which springs from Cnnnanitish Sicily, is but a modern version of their ancient tendency to traffic among the nations of the world.

Canaanites have also intermarried into Esau-Turkey today (Gen. 26: 34), and Judah (Gem 38.2 ) , and Israel (Judges 3:5-7). Only a few Canaanites remain in North Palestine and Lehannn The Canaanites are seldom included in the prophecies which pertain to this twentieth century. They exert no great position or influence in the world. The main body of non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine today are not Canaanites, but Philistines!

Religion should fade away and give way to Moral thinking . Behind every genocidal act is belief that it's authorized be a God. You are an intelligent man . Are you saying that a some great truth was given to some middle eastern nomads 5 or 6 thousand years ago , that we are not more equipped more enlightened to refute today. We as humans are growing more intellectual everyday . We stagnate our minds by blindly following foolishness .
That passage has encouraged slave trade after slave trade for the greedy. So many beautiful people enslaved. Blindly following that story caused the masses to idly sit back and allow it. The exaggerated stories in the bible ,were not ment for us to pattern our lives after. The teachings of Jesus was. Jesus was a Moral Thinker. Though his teachings were not original they were special . We were done a disservice when the constructors of the bible decided to place th teaching and life stories of Jesus smack dab in the middle of the rest of that bigoted ,racist ,elitist ,oppressive to women,book. So don't try to intellectually explain . Just say it was foolishness. If someone wrote that today he would becosidered a bigoted fool. Just because it was written way back then does not make it holy.

 

[klijah]

:yes:1. The Youngest Son of Noah:
The youngest son of Noah, from whom sprang the western and southwestern nations known to the Hebrews. His name first occurs in Genesis 5:32, where, as in 6:10 and elsewhere, it occupies the second place. In Genesis 9:18 Ham is described as "the father of Canaan".
2. Ham as a Nationality (30 Nations came out of Ham):
The name given, in Psalms 105:23,17; 106:22 (compare 78:51), to Egypt as a descendant of Ham, son of Noah. As Shem means "dusky," or the like, and Japheth "fair," it has been supposed that Ham meant, as is not improbable, "black." This is supported by the evidence of Hebrew and Arabic, in which the word chamam means "to be hot" and "to be black," the latter signification being derived from the former.
It is interesting to note that the Biblical record defines Egypt as the Land of Ham.
-- Psalm 105: 23 "Israel also came into Egypt...the land of Ham."​

 

[CMike]

Just enjoy sharing the "little" knowledge and nuggets of truth God has blessed me with in hope that others will share theirs with me.



Although the Israelites invaded the land of Canaan and lived side by side with Canaanites for many years, there is no statement in the Bible that the Canaanites were racially different from Israel, though this has often been assumed. The Bible does not specifically tell us why Abraham did not wish his son Isaac to marry a Canaanite, but the most likely reason was because of religious differences. (The Pentateuch later forbade such marriages because
those of non-Israelite stock would introduce Israel to false religions. See (Deuteronomy 7:3-4).

In other words, Abraham did not want Isaac to marry a woman who would be a worshiper of Canaanite gods. With such practices going on among Isaac 's Canaanite neighbors, it seems likely that his children would be influenced to become involved in pagan religious practices. Thus Abraham was seeking to ensure that his descendants would continue to worship the one true God.

The reason was beause they were corrupt.

 

[outhouse]

The reason was beause they were corrupt.

Historically we see something completely different.


Israelites evolved from displaced Canaanites. Israel's head archeologist claims this as fact.


They forgot their own origins, they had no clue, and made this mythical curse.


End of story, no mystery here at all.