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Creation vs. Evolution

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rex, Mar 19, 2004.

  1. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    Genesis 2:2. And the earth was a void and emptiness, and darkness was upon the faces of the deep [abyssi]; and the Spirit of God was brooding upon the faces of the waters.

    Before his regeneration, man is called the "earth void and empty" and also the "ground" wherein nothing of good and truth has been sown; "void" denotes where there is nothing of good, and "empty" where there is nothing of truth. Hence comes "thick darkness" that is, stupidity, and an ignorance of all things belonging to faith in the Lord, and consequently of all things belonging to spiritual and heavenly life.

    Such a man is described by the Lord through Jeremiah:
    My people is stupid, they have not known Me.They are foolish sons, and are not intelligent; they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and lo a void and emptiness, and the heavens, and they had no light (Jer. 4:22-23).

    Harry
     
  2. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    how true how true... :lol:

    wa:-do
     
  3. Mr Spinkles

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    >>Before going..., Spinkles, don't confuse "good manners" with "intelligence". They are not synonyms.<<

    inca, I swear I never ONCE confused your good manners with intelligence.
     
  4. inca

    inca Active Member

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    Good to know. Something else to add in scientific approach? No? It figures!
     
  5. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

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    We have to surrender to evidence objectively whether we like it or not. If you can't do that, you don't have a scientific attitude but you're dogmatic always believing what you want to believe.

    Funny, you don’t follow your own advice.

    I know I will hate to change some ideas but I will in behalf of science, not my prefered and beloved imaginary mental toy to play with during decades in order to satisfy my own ego.

    Let us know when you do decide to change some of your ideas.

    Let's say our universe is 5 billion years old. I really don't trust too much in the data giving by methods used.

    Do you even understand the data or the methods used?

    Because they are not measuring time in first place but activity on time which is different and based upon some speculations.

    Confirmed. You don’t understand the date or the methods.

    The rythm of acceleration is the Principles of Physic Cosmology: Every time the universe duplicates, the perception of time divides in the middle. When universe was small it duplicated faster, when it gets bigger it takes more time to duplicate.

    Your capacity to shovel it higher and deeper gets higher and deeper all the time.

    Scientist George Ferrows (not a Creationist) calculated the probability against entropy or gravity appearing by itself in a number followed by 123 zeros never happening in nature. He recognizes the universe urges the believe in a "creator". And of course, this is not an anecdote cos he was using math which is an exact science though U-know-Who will never understand that.

    You’ll need to provide a source for this – I want to see that math.

    A scientist requires more than memorizing formulas, he requires imagination.

    Yes, but a credible scientist will not allow his imagination to rule his logic, as does people like Hoagland and Van Flandern.

    We have read many times and saw the images in Scientific American and books or other magazines about the deformation of the space, the illustration of the iron ball upon a sheet and the smaller balls been affected by the weigh of the ball on the tissue

    That is reference to general relativity – the ball and sheet analogy is used to describe GR to laymen.

    Kaku imagined the point of view of fishes inside the aquarium if they were taken out from their liquid universe. Hawkings thinks in bubbles connected with other soap bubbles-universes via bridges or wormholes.

    Please remember these guys are sensationalists selling books that WOW the laymen. I can see that it works, too.

    …and the virus discussion continues ad infinitum…

    That was quite a ramble – it made no sense at all but it was quite a ramble, nonetheless.

    So when you think about physics & metaphysics, space and time, we're entering in the realm of speculation

    Don’t confuse physics with metaphysics – it is only metaphysics in which speculation is logic.

    And sometimes you ask yourself how can you distinguish science from science fiction and philosophy

    It’s clear to me that you have yet to distinguish science from science fiction. I’ll give you a hint; it’s not on TV or in movies.

    Yet I can make the things even more complex for the evolutionists if I quote this If 1% of the readers is capable and patiente enough to read 21 pages of that site, that would be good. Yet it's not the only one with this idea.

    ROTFLMAO! Coffee… through nose… laptop… clean up…
     
  6. inca

    inca Active Member

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    But I will have some fresh new to give:
    Hummingbirds who didn't change in 30 million years of pseudo-evolution and "striking resemblance" after that alleguedly constant "change" . They guess the SIZE was cdue to climate changes. I SAY, indeed more than that, the aspect of science shall be answered not by paleonthologists but by geologists regarding the whole planet Earth:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3691169.stm

    Neanderthal who had the crown of their teeth formed 15 % FASTER than we do now but the interpretation required a further explanation:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3663865.stm

    Someone was making fun of the knowledge 1000 years ago, perhaps needs to know what was the source of an accurate map done in 16th Century with information we are learning NOW:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3683087.stm
     
  7. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    The Holy Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation was written in correspondences. In order to understand the Word you have the knowledge of correspondences.The science of correspondences and representatives was the chief science among the ancients; especially among the eastern nations.In Egypt more than elsewhere. Likewise among the Gentiles, as in Greece and other places, however, that science is among the lost sciences, particularly in Europe.

    The idolatries of nations in ancient times arose from the study of correspondences among them for the reason that everything appearing on the earth has a correspondence-as, for instance, not only trees, but also animals and birds of every kind, as well as fish, and so on.

    The ancients, who had a knowledge of correspondences, made images for themselves that corresponded to spiritual things, and they took delight in them, because they symbolized such things as had to do with heaven and so with the church.

    They put images like this not only in their temples but also in their houses, not as objects of worship, but to remind them of the heavenly things which they symbolized.

    In Egypt they therefore set up images of calves, bulls, snakes, children, old people,and maidens, among other things, because a calf symbolized the innocence of the natural person, bulls the affections of the natural person, snakes the prudence of the sensual person, a child signifies innocence, old people wisdom, maidens affections for truth, and so forth.

    After a knowledge of correspondences was there extinguished, their descendants-who did not know what these things symbolized-began to worship the images and figures set up by the ancients, first as holy objects, and finally as deities, because they were placed in and around temples.

    The hieroglyphics of the Egyptians came from the same origin. So did other similar things in other nations-such as Dagon with the Philistines in Ashdod, whose upper half was like that of a man and its lower half like that of a fish. This image was invented because a man symbolizes rational intelligence and a fish natural knowledge.

    The correspondences of the Lord's words, in John "My Father and I are one", means this that the Soul and Body are one in Jesus Christ.

    The five foolish virgin without oil in their lamps correspondences to those who are in faith alone,without charity. The lamp correspondences to faith,charity means love.

    May I ask a question: When is this guy going to stop drinking? :drink:

    Harry
     
  8. inca

    inca Active Member

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    ...or a Chinese map made 1300 years ago with the same 12 divisions of the "heavens" as in other cultures, something of a knowledge based upon earlier documents "revealed" by the gods:
    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=517627
    Interesting indeed and not off topic cos "Creation" includes "heavens and Earth". And the counting of the kings or gods with long life span as in the Bible, Sumerian and Chinese account will reveal many things that are invisible for the ones who don't know.
     
  9. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    funny how you keep posting the same creationist web sites over and over (eaven though you clame to not be pushing creationism) and not forming your own arguments...

    anyway... about this website :
    http://www.anzwers.org/free/livedragons/evolutio.htm

    the pic on the top right is an admitted forgery... done by the same people who did the effect for the BBC's 'walking with dinosaurs'...
    the pic below that of the 'smiling sea dragon' is of a bottle nosed whale... a rather rare whale species that washes up on shore from time to time..
    heres a picture of one:

    the unkown armor plated fish.. is in fact a Sturgeon.. best known for providing the world with caviar... Here is a picture:

    The idea that the komodo dragon is a dinosaur and not a veranid lizard is just silly...
    And I love how the pictures of the 'civil war pterodactyl' never have any fur... Its now known that they had fur on thier bodies... but it wasn't discovered untill the late 80's...

    as for anchient people and the twisting snake model... well have you ever seen snakes fight?
    they do so by twisting thier bodies around one another and wrestling for dominance...
    some pictures of this:
    http://www.brantacan.co.uk/AddersM2.jpg
    http://www.brantacan.co.uk/images/Contest5.jpg
    I find this to be the more plausibel explanation for the symbol...

    and for historic accounts of flying lizards and snakes... well they do exist.. in the jungles of asia
    the 'flying lizard' Draco...
    http://www.centralpets.com/pages/critterpages/reptiles/lizards/LZD2644.shtml
    and flying snakes:
    http://student-www.uchicago.edu/~jjsocha/flyingsnake/flyingsnake.html

    wa:-do
     
  10. Mr Spinkles

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    Better quit drinking coffee while you read these, Q
    :drink: :lol:
     
  11. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    and yes science knows about Gigantopithecus blacki a truely massive prehistoric ape found in china...

    check out:
    http://www.meta-religion.com/Paranormale/Cryptozoology/Extinct_animals/gigantopithecus_blacki.htm
    http://www.uiowa.edu/~nathist/Site/giganto.html
    http://www.skullsunlimited.com/gigantopithecus_blacki_skull.html

    and Meganthropus also a giant prehistoric ape...
    http://www.evolutionnyc.com/IBS/SimpleCat/Product/asp/product-id/892385.html

    unfortunatly very little is known of them just some pieces of jawbone and possibaly some skull pieces... but we both dislike building animals from just little bits of bone so I'll move on...

    Its funny how with Eohippus your willing to believe that the dentition and the structure of the legs and hips and the feet could change so drastically to become Hyrax but it could not change just a little to become Equis... especally when we have so many transitory species between them...

    It would take A LOT more evolution to make Eohippus a Hyrax than an Equis...

    wa:-do
     
  12. inca

    inca Active Member

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    It's you the one who says we have found ape-man fossils. They were not. They were just apes. I answered but you didn't understand. Define what's bizarre, please and specially WHY do you think is bizarre. Perhaps cos you never heard it before! Weren't you the one who never heard the word "hypertricosis" or was somebody else? But, I'll explain more:
    Partial info leads to misunderstanding. You don’t know my whole thought. We have discussed pages just to know each other partial point of view. I don’t rely exclusively in Jewish account. I recognize we, humans, do possess an onthogenetic and collective memory which remembers historical facts like recorded by fire in our neurons, not mere archetypes or symbols. For instance, not too many people are aware the even in Sumerian account Adamu-Adapa was made in the image “selem” and likeness “dmut” of his creators exactly like Hebrew record, and the cuneiform account existed thousands of years before the Biblical episode. Chinese & Sumerian culture are linked in many ways. China didn’t have so much Christian influence to import their culture, yet some details in their ideograms are curious. The word “covet” is represented by the ideograms of a single woman staring a couple of trees (it can also mean she was staring the woods) and is the same old account of a woman desiring the fruit of a couple of trees (knowledge & everlasting life) which are omnipresent in Assyria, Babylonian and Sumerian accounts without talking about others. In Genesis we read 3 criticisms: snake blames the god is hiding information from the original couple; Adam blames god cos he gave him the wrong woman and Eve blames the snake who deceived her. In Chinese the equivalent of the word “critic” is 3 mouths. The word “vessel” is the composition of the ideogram for “ship” + 8 + mouth which reminds us there were 8 human mouths in the ark (Noah and his wife, his 3 sons and 3 respective wives).
    www.creationism.org/chinese2.jpg

    In Greek myths, PANdora was coveting the box that eventually caused all sort of evil and death in the world. PANdemonium and PANdora came form the same entity which was PAN, the goat-hybrid creature pretty much like the demons in the shape of goats related to Samael (Satan whose name is Semael in Sumerian account) and Lillith (Lulu or hybrid in Sumerian) as described in Isaiah 34:14. The name of Pandora’s husband was Epimeteus meaning “who thought after” (the consequences of her imprudence…like Adam) and of course, Pandora was made of clay. The Arabs, Meso and Southamerican people remember the use of blood in creation. The same details in spite of natural and logic oral deformation due to the passing of generations and generations.
    If we believe Genesis and Sumerian account, we are pushed to understand we were not naturally smarter than the rest of animals! We HAD to be transformed into the gods’ likeness in physical sense and in other aspects as well. They wanted to achieve something. What was their purpose you may ask? We were created to work or to “cultivate the land” (Genesis 2:5,6). Now, cultivate is a modern translation coming from the Latin word “cultus” but involves more than harvesting the fields. That’s why it’s given the detail in Eden there was gold of excellent quality (Genesis 2:10-12). Author Sitchin wants to give a literal translation of the places but he forgets the manuscripts passed through several hands so I disagree with him in where he marks the spot of those events (but that’s another story, right?). The detail explained in Genesis was explained extensively in Sumerian account. That is the famous gold given as gifts for the gods and not always as current money. That’s the gold “god” reclaims for himself (Hageus 2:8, the book after Zephaniah and before Zechariah). The astronauts today use gold –among other things- to wear it in their helmets to protect them from ultraviolet rays and we can interprete from Sumerian account the gods needed gold powder to use it in their own planet Nibiru to dodge the escape of gases. We were genetically modified not cos direct intervention of Almighty Himself nor for natural evolution but to do exactly what we are doing with apes now, yet the purpose was making an army of slave clones. The gods were fed up of mining gold themselves and wanted free hand work. The sin was related to sex as I said before. Yet sexual breeding provided the help and understanding of Adamus genes. In the moment the hybridation and sterilization problem is solved in the chromosomes, the couple bare children, the children of sin. That was not supposed to happen. It was like one of the episodes of Planet of the Apes when the ape couple had their chimp baby and humans wanted to kill them cos that would mean the extermination or competition with human beings. It’s reasonable to understand then why the gods talking un plural expelled them from Eden greenhouse pyramid laboratory, they were jealous or worried as Genesis 3:22-24 and 11:6, 7 clearly mentions. Sumerian account is much more detailed yet.
    A couple of critics here say I confuse science fiction with science. I’m not. I use the films & books as examples cos to be a science fiction writer like Clarke and Asimov you need to know real science to be a step ahead. Eventually real science return the favor converting science fiction into science. The film Space Odyssey 2001 was done before we went to the Moon. The film Battlefield Earth was based upon a science fiction writer who’s a Scientologist himself, R. Hubbard. I don’t know too much about these people but the little I know I disagree with them. Yet that writer is not completely lunatic in his books. In the film, the alien Psychlo is performed by a giant John Travolta with a GIANT SKULLS LIKE PERUVIAN SKULLS and Bob Marley hair and Spock eyebrows; he has 6 FINGERS IN ONE HAND ( a detail not too many spectators payed attention).

    www.s8int.com/giants1.html

    But if you consider what I say absurd cos lack of understanding why do I have to waste time and extra energy talking about the simian line on the palm of the hand of a certain mutant and the astonishing details which I'll rather than write about????? Hmmm?

    They come to Earth -in the film- and they need gold from the mines and use humans as slaves. The story takes place in the future though Sumerians explained the same plot thousands of years ago. Another version of the story is seen in Stargate when the alien Ra sends humans to planet in Orion constellation through a vortex with the liquid effect (similar to Casimir effect known in physics) to use them as slaves in the mines to supply his own technology to preserve his body like Egyptian mummification. He was the god who gave culture to ancient Egyptians but for a too high price. The ideas were taken from the research done by engineer Bauval, reporter Hancock, Egyptologist West, geologist Schol, Nasa consultant and Sumerian and Hebrew scholar, Sitchin, etc. In this case the advance of knowledge about the past led to science fiction about the future.
    So the choosing of apes to make genetic experiences was not because we were too bright in the past. It wasn’t practical to perform such wonders…let’s say in a dolphin. Human brain is bigger in volume (average 1.600 cc) than the chimps, the orangotango (500 cc), gorilla (600 cc) and chimp (600 cc). Dolphin brain is bigger than human, both of them have an average of 1600 cc but the brain of the dolphin has the double of number of circumvolutions (that means more cerebral power) and 3 times more cerebral cells. But it would be impractical to make genetic engineering on them living in the water! The gods needed human miners using their hands the same way Egyptians trained baboons to sweep their temples.
    Even creating such mingle of ape and gods’ image, the brain of the children in the jungle won’t help them too much unless they get in contact with a medium providing the program. An excellent Pentium without the programs is worthless like a new tv with flat liquid screen without programs to see! I believe that hallucinogenic “tree” was the perfect medium, like a glove for a hand.
    www.jornalinfinito.com.br/series.asp?cod=81
    www.jornalinfinito.com.br/series.asp?cod=80
    www.dhushara.com/book/consum/consum1.htm
    www.dhushara.com/book/wass/wasson3.htm
    www.montana.edu/wwwai/imsd/rezmeth/transmit.htm
    www.peyote.com
    www.umsl.edu/~rkeel/180/hallucin.html
     
  13. inca

    inca Active Member

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    Spiritual Son: What you do is eliminate the Hebrew source or grab to Christians interpretation. Nowhere in Genesis there's a reference to any "church" and your speculation of the meaning "regeneration" is not shared by the Hebrew understanding. Cain's wife accoding to the Book of Jubilees was his own sister-wife, an endogamy that started with the very Eve taken from Adam's flesh and bone, genetic endogamy to be exact. Women were not usually mentioned by name yet Genesis 5:4 admits Adam had daughters and sons. The Book of Jubilees provides the name AWAN.
    When it's said Cain met his woman it was not like the translations saying "met" or "knew" cos the Hebrew "yadha" means knowing by -sexual- experience. So, everytime there was such carnal knowledge a boy was born (Gen 4:1, 17 and in verse 25 we see the awful translation in some Bibles saying Adam knew his wife AGAIN). It was not a case of "glad to meet you again darling" but I guess you need to research more in this forum to get rid of Christian repetitions in the same books.
    What I post from Principles of Physics was taken from reknown physicist Ph D Gerald Schroeder. Everything else is based upon scientific facts. Has anybody hear an unknown guy say "I wanna see the math" Allow us to laugh! The poor old decrepit guy doesn't even know how to multiply! If he wanna know, he shall do his homework, don't you agree??? Let's continue to ignore his oh-oh-oh wonderful insight about the topic! HA-HA-HA!
     
  14. inca

    inca Active Member

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    Please click on yellow letters to read "gold of excellent quality"..
     
  15. inca

    inca Active Member

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  16. inca

    inca Active Member

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    By the way, Q's prediction about the future of Earth and Mars is wrong too!
     
  17. Mr Spinkles

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    Good question I'm wondering the same thing :lol:


    Once again:

    If humans didn't evolve, then why don't we find any human fossils way back in the fossil record? Why, instead, are there so many fossils that appear to be partly ape, then half ape half human, then partly human, then mostly ape? What is your alternative theory to explain these observations (a scientific explaination please--no sci fi movies)?

    Are the following photographs fossils of modern man, exactly how we are today? Or are they photos of modern apes, exactly as they are today? If not, how do you scientifically explain these fossils which share characteristics of both man and ape?

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/sts5.jpg
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/oh24.jpg
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/1813.jpg
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/java.jpg
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/1470.jpg
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/3733.jpg
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/15000_side.jpg
     
  18. Mr Spinkles

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    wow, painted wolf you really know your stuff.
     
  19. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    maybe the aliens had to give it a few goes before they got it right?

    still doesn't explain where all the othe animals came from...

    :eek:mg:

    wa:-do
     
  20. Mr Spinkles

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    ROTFLMAO!!

    :lol:

    I hope the aliens don't draft me, I'm a hemophiliac! :eek:mg:
     
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