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Creation vs. Evolution

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
as for fossils....

Who was Adam and Eve?
If they were the first humans then what about the neandertals? What about Homo erectus? What about all the other hominids? How do you explain them?

what about the origen of birds? Where did they come from?
Is Archeopteryx a bird or a dinosaur?
what about Confusicornis?
Sinosauropteryx?
Microrapor?
where do you draw the line? What is a bird?

wa:-do
 

Death

Member
Archy is a dinobird, though people tend to refer to it as a bird. Though it has several features unique to reptiles, rather than birds.

Mutations are nto inherently bad to the organism, as you'll notice, influenza, the common cold and HIV change rapidly and we've had no luck wiping them out.

Other mutation success stories would be flavobacteria and MRSA, and soon VRSA, and certain forms of entereococci. All the above mutations have been observed in recent times, within living memory.

There was a common ancestor of hominids, i think that's the "eve" you're referring to, if you mean one actual animal that suddenly spawned all the different hominids at the same time, i think you've got a severely wrong end of the stick.

Evolution isn't a "random" process, mutation effectively is, but mutation is only half the story. The other half is selection, and that's no more random than water rolling downhill.

The information argument is bunk since noone's stringently defined what information is, if they mean matter, it has observed being added, if they mean functionality, it has also been observed being added. Spetner is also a creationist.

Google "nylon bug." That pretty much refutes the whole information argument against evolution.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Inca:

I have a couple of questions for you.

First of all, if evolution is bull****, how did we get here? I mean really, there are no ancient fossils of modern man. If not from Cro-Magnon man and the like, where in the hell did we come from???

Secondly, to explain your fly vs. gamma ray analogy:
Did you ever think that if eyes on a fly's wings were particularly helpful to survival, they might not have gone away? We're not talking about immediate restructuring of DNA here. If the eyes proved to be a huge advancement for the flies, then eventually the ones who were not as predisposed to pass them on to their offspring, and that resulting offspring, would have dies, whereas the ones who were more susceptible to passing on the eyes, would have done so and the species would be changed. Eventually, only the flies who were the most predisposed to keepig and passing on the eyes would be left, and they would repopulate the species. In your situation, however, the eyes were not needed, and perhaps were even disruptive to survival. Because of the lack of need, it died out. Simple economics, really. Likewise, take the giraffe. At one time, the giraffe is thought to have been a realatively short creature. However, as food became scarce perhaps, only the tallest ones were able to reach the food, whereas the others died of starvation. The species kept growing and growing until it rechec the height that was appropriate for its chosen method of survival.
 

inca

Active Member
The occasional sacrifice after a while meant thousands of people who had to be slaughtered per year. In the beginning the Nahuatl and Quiche people were selective.
Your point is correct, we don't have to believe every rock or mountain with a face. Yet when the specific game of shadows and light strike in certain day like equinoxes, solstices, eclipses and there are plateaus artificially created and different kind of stones were used to make "sits" to stand to the right distance and when the whole place presents dozens of images representing human races and different animals, the thing is completely different. That's why I say anthropologist and archeologist Daniel Ruzo had to examine the place for many years as others did with Nazca lines. No simple erosion but artificial images. Also we need to know the statues in certian communities were not statues as depicted by Egyptians, Greeks and other people. In Mesoamerica and South America they prefered to "hide" the monuments and play more with shadows and light in "sacred days".
Q: I knew that almost 75 years old brain doesn't know anything about anything in science field. But now we know he doesn't know anything about movies either!!!! May anyone help his arthritic brain and advice him to buy amagazine specialized in the 7th art explaining the film? Buy CINEFLEX, number 85, cost 9.50 cents. He can start reading from page 71.
R U "talkin' 2 ME?????
 

inca

Active Member
...of course he can't and won't understand me. He doesn't even understand a movie Clarke had written back in 1948 in a short story! Tell that idiot to check "The Sentinel" and the discovery of a crystalline pyramid (oh-oh, like Mayas, Moches and Egyptians, wowowwowaw!) erected on top of a remote lunar plateu millions of years before and shielded through the ages by an invisible force field.
"Duality" my a....s.
 

inca

Active Member
As I said what was achieved setting eyes on the wings wasn't a natural process. Everything is already written and I have explained with detail the experiences in the past so I don't think I have to repeat it again. Same happens with adaptations, they can't go beyond certain limits. None of the things you have written have demonstrated "jumps" from species to others.
Even Darwin admit the stupidity of his own logic about the evolution of a complex organ like the eye. Imagine how come the species reproduced themselves until the sexual parts were ready and compatible to interact with each other. It just wouldn't work until each and every part is fully developed! So, if the system would take that time and effort to produce sexual organs, why to create them in first place? Yet, even now after alleguedly millions of years of evolution, we have the same chickens with eggs, the different kind of eggs of the reptiles, the feathers of the birds, the fin in sharks, etc. All kind of Russian salad. No evolution to transform into something else. No bull&%$# ! That story always sound fishy but is marvelous design and set in magazines and BBC specials on tv.All crap packed in golden packages.
All the strata evidence in geological layers demonstrate an explosion of life in different times, no half way process between one thing and another. I don't have the desire to mention each and every scientists (in a long list) admiting insects were insects since the beginning of their appearance into this planet, the same happens with birds, mammals, etc. I could and you can send them letters to respective universities for them (as experts) take you out of misery. But I won't. It's you the one who believes that litter. You do your homework. Mentioning 1% of "good" mutations won't lead you to new species. That's your dogma and I have already mentioned what scientists say. If you don't wanna believe them nothing that I say will change your mind. So let it be written,so let it be done.
Some animals may dissapear and had different shape, yet the dissapearence of some never explained how did they come in first place. That was always a tricky argument used by evolucionists. I can ask you how come spermatozoid appears or egg cell. It's already a program made by a law the scientists rely upon. More than million animal species have a singular program based upon the same "letters" in DNA with the proper alterations. It never meant they HAD to evolve one from another. Darwin , for example, set an imbecil argument about the peaks of some birds, since they were different they meant evolution. That was a huge mistake. That's just a simple adaptation in the same DNA plan. If you now go and say the same idiotic argument in a university talking about the differences of noses in human races they are gonna laugh at you and explain the superficial differences and the genotype and phenotype.
I have said the genetic experience was made upon those "hominids".
Whole life in the universe is something not even the biggest mind have unraveled. Probably you're aware some of the brightest minds are suggesting the whole universe is a hollogram based upon binary code (or other codes) information. Now, if a narrow minded archeologist and palenthologist finds a rudimentary sharp stone like an arrow point, there's no problem in admiting there was someone who did it. Sagan sent a message in code to be understood by alien inteligence. If we receive a code from outside we will recognize an entity, right? But when you see DNA code or marvelous laws in the universe and cosmo - experts talk about anthropic principle, how come the same people can't see evidence of a Law Giver? Is an arrow or Sagan's message something better than life? Therefore, that's my answer to you. God didn't make our life on Earth directly as we understand from Hebrew words in Genesis. There were other creatures created somehow in spiritual realms. These creatures sowed life on Earth. It was not an stupid deaf and dumb meteor in parmsperm theory. When different species created in different times (days in Hebrew is "yown" and indicates thousands of years or even millions, sorry Creationists!) were already existing. It was time to select some of the creatures (maybe Neanderthal) to make genetic experiences to forward "evolution" in short time.
By the way, I don't pretend to write here everything the people believe is usually what they are lead to "eat". I can start with the parallax calculations with trigonometry awfully applied to far away stars and ending in the ignorance about our own planet Earth and Moon formation, past rotation and spinning around the Sun , each one of the methods measuring activity on time RATHER THAN TIME, spilliting of Pangea (the cause is ignored) ,etc,etc,etc.
 

inca

Active Member
"The giraffe is THOUGHT to be a relative short creature". You see? That's a theory, no facts. If the relative was a lamb, well, we have different species of animals, some with horns and some without horns. Very close in Africa in the same environment we have very short people side by side to extremely tall people. What the f*$#*& does that mean? That one "evolved" from another? Welcome to the list of stupid arguments accepted by 99.9% of people who don't use the gray mass!!!
 
inca-- are you being serious about the invisible force field thing, or are you being sarcastic? I'm not trying to make fun but I honestly can't tell.
 

inca

Active Member
I tell you something. You're 16. You are certainly someone who reads. That's good. Yet, I'm not gonna butter you up. I regret to say it's not enough memorizing data. You need to think. Try to do this. Keep a file about recent investigations and compare after some years and for once in your life try to be skeptical NOT ONLY IN RELIGION but in what you digest as "science" in order to harvest science from "science". And then after when you have doubts and enough unsolved questions, try studying ancient religions and compare each one of them. Who knows, there's always hope that cocky teenager mind who thinks he(she)knows truthalltruthandnothingbutthetruth... becomes a little less naïve. Don't worry, adults have been accepting the same excrement served as scientific supper and not even asked themselves anything in all this time. You can save yourself and be one of the few who escapes from common mediocrity. But beware! Don't say it aloud your doubts and whay you consider idiotic to your teachers at the university. They SHALL be angry with you. I tell you in advance. Go ahead and make your day. My part in this theme can be extended forever but I already wrote too much. Nobody wants a wise a...s!
 

inca

Active Member
Painted Wolf: If you took the time to read EVERY LINK that I posted you could well be aware of the question you ask me about who were Adam & Eve. The Genesis account hides things and there was a Sumerian influence. In fact there were several experiences with genetic engineering of the Annunaki. George Lucas probably figured the name ANAKIN from them or the Biblical giants children of Anac and the saber beam sword was inspired in Genesis 3:24 (although he probably ignores Judges 6:21, 22). If you have time and DESIRE to learn something, read again everything that I posted and don't "jump" information. You can take the spiderweb and dust out of your Bible and check those texts.
In the Sumerian account there were a lot of mutants including some modern diseases explicitly mentioned in the creation of the several Adamus or Adapas. The very name in Sumerian means "in their image". I recomend you to read Zecharia Sitchin's "Genesis Revisited", "Cosmic Code" and "12th Planet". Criticism always will come by the same people who hate reading and "jump" information. So go ahead, read and judge after and keep on studying until finding "nearer" to the truth. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle, between Creation and Evolution, something like an hybrid between 2001 Space Odysee & Planet of the Apes (the old versions and the new one). Then you can read the Popul Vuh of the Mayas and you will also read the same myths about monkey-men...but in inverse process! Don't make fun of Artur Clark, he was a friend of Carl Sagan who was a friend of Hoagland. Sitchin & Hoagland are Nasa's consultant. And as chimp Dr. S, says to astronaut interpreted by Charlton Heston: "don't look for it, Taylor, you may not like what you find".
 

inca

Active Member
...The wise ones will check the books, the pages, the authors..the stupid ones will grab to the same old leftover...
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Inca,

First of all, I just want to say that if I seemed cocky to you, I am truly sorry for that was not my intention at all. I am up for being proven wrong any day of the week.

Against my better judgement, I didn't read through this entire thread before I wrote my post, but as you referred to your previous posts, I will give them a look.

I also just want to add that I try to never take anything at face value. I believe in evolution, not because it has been spoon fed to me, but because I feel it makes good logical sense. I have investigated creationism as well, but in the end evolution won the battle.

I'll check out more of your other posts and be back.
 

inca

Active Member
Spinkles, I'm quoting exactly from the magazine specialized in films mentioning the short story Clarke did in that date. In the movie 2001 Space Odysee (if you rent it again) you will see when the astronauts touched the black monolith there was a terrible noise as a kind of alarm.
Victor P: religion comes from a word "religare" meaning to tie up or unite something with God. Probably something missing. It was never meant to be part of a club but something personal. So, I don't have a "logo".
 
Inca-

Thanks for calling people with a different opinion than you stupid, dumb, ignorant, etc- all that name-calling really reflects on how intelligent you must be :roll:

First of all, the things you are pointing out here are debates that are ocurring within the scientific community about the different aspects of the theory of evolution. You seem to be very interested in, and knowledgeable about, science and various scientists. So I think we still agree that, if we want to find out where humans came from, we need to investigate the matter using scientific methods and not a literal translation of the Bible stories. Just like most theories, there are exceptions and gaps in our knowledge that we can't explain yet. However, I highly doubt many scientists would interpret the various problems with the theory of evolution as proof of Creationism, which is a religious belief.

At absolute most, your arguments suggest that the theory of evolution needs to be revised or added to, a statement with which some scientists agree. However, in no way do your arguments make the theory of evolution, which is based on science and logic, inferior to the theory of Creationism, which is based on religious stories written over a millennia ago. You yourself use science to illustrate holes in evolutionary theory. Surely you must agree that, just because the theory isn't perfect, we should throw scientific investigation into the subject out the door because the answers were there all along in stories contained in the Bible.
 

inca

Active Member
Has anybody told you the difference between an example and reality? Read the previous messages to understand the context of the conversation with somebody else. Something to add to the issue Mr. United Atheist? He-he!
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Inca-
>The so-called Eohippus, the ancestral of the horse was probably a daman, an animal who actually exists in Africa.<

ok, I'm going to give you the bennifit of the doubt in thinking you haven't actually compaired the two for yourself...

Eohippus aka. Hyracotherium and daman aka the Hyrax are nothing alike... Lets compair....

here is a picture of the so called Eohippus
http://www.researchcasting.ca/hyracotherium_vasacciense.htm
and here is a picture of the skull of Hyrax and the body
http://www.skullsunlimited.com/graphics/Hyrax_Skull.jpg
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/mzm/heterohyrax_brucei.jpg/view.html

as you can see they are quite different...
1 the Hyrax has large rodent like insisors while eohipus does not... in fact it has horse dentition with nipping front teeth and a gap leading to the canine teeth and another larger gap leading to the molars... like horses...
2 eohipus' skull is longer and lower and not as short and wide as Hyrax
now on to the body....
1 Hyrax is plantigrade (it walks on the soles of its feet) Eohipus is ditigrade (it walks on the tips of its toes)
2 the legs of Eohipus are far longer and straiter than the legs of Hyrax... wich overall looks very rodent like...

and if your going on the number of toes then lets include other animals with the same arangement...
Rodents (wich look more like Hyrax than Hyrax looks like Eohipus)
- Agouti, Viscacha, and Cavy
Tapiers
and some prehistoric Rhinos...

as for building an animal based on a singel bone... I dislike that as well... fortunatly Eohippus/Hyracotherium is known from several nearly complete skelitions... including the skulls, hips, legs, feet, ribs and vertebra...

wa:-do
 
inca-- so what exactly do you beleive happened? Is the Earth 6,000 years old etc? I don't think you've adequately accounted for all the humanoid fossils that seem to be a mix of human and ape characteristics.

If humans didn't evolve, then why don't we find any human fossils way back in the fossil record? Why, instead, are there so many fossils that appear to be partly ape, then half ape half human, then partly human, then mostly ape? What is your alternative theory to explain these observations?

Also, inca--could we be a little more civil to others? We all have a passion for this issue...let's be friends anyways though. :)
 

inca

Active Member
I think it deserves a better explanation of my points. I'm not a defender of all theories of Creationists. I'm not confusing religion with science. All my arguments so far have been using scientific data not religion. Theory of evolution has been around enough time to be proved. It just missed the target. How funny is I show the similarities between a daman with the so-called ancester of the horses and someone mentions the differences of the skulls. Yet, in the evolutionist books you find the design of a fish and then they explain the parts were the "ancestral" part of an organ in the mammals!!!!!! That's a typical example how come the arguments can be used only by them whenever they want but not against them! The existence of the daman until now, it doesn't mean the daman didn't change or did have "adaptations" in the past. My point was and is, the fact that you find a fossil doesn't mean we have to believe the lables they put on. All hominid fossil don't necessarily mean they were ancestrals of humans (in that sense the evolutionist doesn't care about differences, right???? Very oportunistic!), they could've been no missing link at all but species of apes. The survival of the most skilled has always been a fiasco. The less skilled survived (chimps, Rhesus, orangutangos, gorillas and in fact all kind of beings:reptiles,birds,sea mammals, fish, etc) altogether with us, the most "evolved" creature. Yet the most skilled than apes, the missing link dissapeared! First we have to demonstrate why on Earth those missing links dissapeared in first place. I repeat, dissapearence doesn't explain how come they came to existence and fossils are complete all over the place, no hocus pocus magic.
 
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