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Covid vaccine. Who took it, who didn't?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by We Never Know, Apr 3, 2021.

?
  1. yes, I trust it

    26 vote(s)
    70.3%
  2. no, I don't trust it

    9 vote(s)
    24.3%
  3. undecided

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    I can't read caps and don't attempt since I still have eye issues.

    I honestly and genuinely don't know what you are referring to. I haven't said I didn't do the things you said, I was saying I judge behavior and speech not people.

    I don't know if you missed it (and probably if it happens distinct/direct again, I can use site feedback or report).

    Unvaccinated people have been called uncaring, ignorant, dogs, crying babies, blind, and so forth-literally. It is an insult to many and no unvaccinated (one that have chose not to get it and/or those against it) have not called people names.

    Just when you warn, warn (just giving a suggestion), warn as a whole. If you want to warn me privately and specifically, than that's fine too.

    My question, though, was is it alright to call names (in general not just this thread) but not alright to complain about it (as per when RFers create threads for that purpose-as one example)?
     
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  2. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    No. When posting in a thread as a member I'm subject to the same rules that any other member is, no more, no less.

    If I see something that I object to, and point it out without breaking any of the rules, I can do that.

    It doesn't mean I'm obligated to go back through the thread, or various threads and find other examples of people from the other side of the argument doing the same thing.

    Just because I work here ( for free ) doesn't mean every single thing I do in here has to be work.

    Look, I'm going to be frank here.

    I have a hard time understanding a lot of what you write.

    So I'm just going to say this: if you think you have a legitimate complaint about anything that violates the rules, go ahead and report it.
     
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  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I asked: “Just how are those who are taking the vaccine doing that for other people?”

    I was asking about their motives for getting the vaccine, not about how it contributes to herd immunity.

    Long-term prospects for the pandemic probably include COVID-19 becoming an endemic disease, much like influenza. But in the near term, scientists are contemplating a new normal that does not include herd immunity. Here are some of the reasons behind this mindset, and what they mean for the next year of the pandemic.

    Five reasons why COVID herd immunity is probably impossible
    Only God tells me what my moral duty is.
    That is just another way of saying that all people who choose not to be vaccinated should be ashamed. Why not just say it outright, afraid of a moderator note?

    Fear and uncertainty are not the only reasons why a person would not want the vaccine, but even if those were the reasons they are nothing to be ashamed of. Imo, the people who should be ashamed are the self-righteous people who are trying to legislate morally for everyone else.
    How is that relevant to what I said? No, I never got a vaccine in my life and I don’t have children.

    I said: “If the shoe was on the other foot and people were asked to do something that that they did not want to do, something that provided no benefit to themselves, in order to help others, you would find out how quickly they would rebel and refuse.”

    Do you want to argue that point? Can you prove that people are getting the vaccine as some kind of heroic act? Can you prove that most all people are not selfishly running to get the vaccine to save themselves (and maybe their immediate families) and so they can safely engage in activities like ball games and concerts? How is that heroic?
    I do not need to be totally isolated in order to not pose a risk to other people. I have a mask and am socially distant when I go grocery shipping late at night when there are about three people left in the store. I just heard on the news that the risk of the virus living in surfaces is slim to none. Should I just stay home and not eat because I might hurt someone in a car accident on the way to the store?
    That sounds like a lot of fear to me. If you want to think that way and live that way that is your own business, but what I think and do is my own business. My husband and I have been going to grocery stores twice a week since March 2020, but he stays in the car. Neither one of us has gotten sick. The only other place we have gone is to the bank a couple of times and to the vet clinics where we remain in the car.
    Yes, my circumstances are different from most people. My routine has hardly changed at all. I cannot say what I will do in the future as I never think ahead or plan anything. I just live one day at a time.
    If you are fully vaccinated why do you need protection from those who are not vaccinated?

    I am glad to hear that you will be able to resume normal activities that you enjoy. Even if my husband and I were fully vaccinated that would not change our lifestyle. I am not saying I like our lifestyle but I cannot change my husband. He has no interest in doing anything outside the house and I don’t like going places alone. The only thing that would change my lifestyle is if he died or we got a divorce. So there you have it. Do you want to live that way? Divorce is not an option. And you think I am worried about getting Covid? If I am worried about anything I am worried about how much longer I can live this way, to be honest. I try to repress these feelings but now I am in tears. It is a hopeless situation and there is no solution unless God steps in, and we all know the chance of that happening. ;) However, if I did not believe in God and an afterlife then I would feel really hopeless.
    That is one reason I never go on Facebook. No, you should not waste your time trying to help people like that.
    Thanks for that information. I did not know you could get Covid after you have been vaccinated.
    I fully agree, and if I was in contact with people I would want the vaccine. Right now I am not but that could change in the future. Right now my biggest worries are now I am going get the money owed to me by one of my tenants as he now owes me over 13,000. He needs to at least start paying some of it or I will have to file a lawsuit. My other biggest worry is a cat that has an upcoming vet appointment to have her teeth cleaned.
    Yes, I see some of the stories on TV. People who are going to and fro and know they are going to have contact with others should get vaccinated, especially if they have a family. I consider it irresponsible not to do so.
    I do not think we need to see this kind thing to know that the vaccine is warranted for people who are exposed to other people outside the home.
    That is true. The vaccinated person will likely survive, as the evidence has shown, and the unvaccinated person has a lesser chance of faring well.
     
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  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    It's hard to articulate words.

    I wasn't expecting you to. "You statements" tend to be accusatory, but they're not meant to be.

    It's in the rules. I just didn't report it though a repeated attempt because its somewhat common on RF but once in awhile insults are very direct and distinct.

    I ask that you respect my complaint and if it is a direct violation in the rules, I will report it in site feedback.
     
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  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, I am not saying that. My ONLY point was that you don't know his motive.
    No, I am not saying that. Of course it is not okay.
    I fully agree, but many people are acting as if they know.
    Sorry, I did not catch that. I went through the video rather fast and planned to watch it again later. I am no history buff so I'd need to know what happened during the last pandemic in order to have an informed opinion.
     
  6. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    The part of the video where he makes a comparison between covid and the Spanish flu begins at 22:10.

    From what I could gather he's suggesting that the first wave (the Spanish flu came in three waves) of the Spanish flu primarily affected the elderly and people with weakened immune systems, just like covid does, and that the second wave differed from the first in that there was a spike of mortality among younger people (suggesting that that's what we're in for next).

    Everything that I remember, as well as everything that I've been able to find since we started this thread, suggests that the Spanish flu was basically indiscriminate in all three waves (although some sources say that the highest infection/mortality rates were among people of childbearing age across all three waves of the flu), and while the second way was more virulent, there wasn't any noticeable change in the specific demographics affected.

    All sources seem to agree that the Spanish flu was different from other pandemics in that it affected the young and healthy as much or more as the very young and the very old.

    Death from 1918 pandemic influenza during the First World War: a perspective from personal and anecdotal evidence

    So if I'm reading all this correctly, Boosche is trying to draw parallels between the Spanish flu and our present pandemic that aren't there.
     
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  7. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    I don't know what you mean by "respect your complaint", but once again, I'm posting in this thread as a member. Period.

    If by "respect" you mean deal with it in some way, then no. It doesn't work that way.

    If you want something dealt with officially you have to either report it or use site feedback.

    Now, I'm going to continue to post in this thread as a member and I'm going to completely ignore anything that even sort of hints that I should be doing otherwise.
     
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  8. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    I answered the question asked.

    But if it's motives you want, my principal motive is to protect myself, but I am glad to be helping others in the process, so both are motives. It's much like our solar collection panels. What's my motive, to help with global warming or to get free power? Yes.

    Both are motives, and either would be enough to justify the expense. I would take the vaccine if all it did was protect others, and I would take it if all it did was protect me. So which is my reason? Both.

    If herd immunity never occurs, so be it. People refusing vaccination and mutating variants may keep the process brewing. In that case, the vaccine is only for the one being vaccinated.

    And the term is relative. If the vaccine makes it the case that I can live life outside my home again, that's herd immunity enough. That's not the case now.

    Incidentally, herd immunity doesn't mean that everybody is immune or that infections don't occur. We create herd immunity every flu season, and though immunized people still get influenza and some may die, the community is mostly protected. That may be the most we can expect here, but nobody is saying to not get a flu shot because it doesn't guarantee immunity from infection.

    I didn't want to use those words with you.

    I think I already did with the rubella example. That vaccine exist to protect the unborn, not the vaccine recipient.

    That's probably correct, although hand washing and avoiding touching the face are still prudent until more data is available. Why do you accept that science, but not the science that recommends getting the first vaccine you can get as soon as you can get it.

    No, it's simply risk management. We began this pandemic like everybody else, uncertain about how this virus can be acquired, and more importantly, how it cannot. We decided to minimize our risk because we could. We're both retired, we don't live with children, and everything we need s delivered to us, including groceries, mail (including Amazon), prescriptions, and vets. We didn't need to go outside with any of those people, so we didn't. And I am fortunate to have a wife who could also give up everything for a year-plus. So, we did the full-court press.
    This was an easy adaptation to make, and we were fortunate that it was even possible to make it.

    For example, our home has a twelve foot wall around it, but when the trash guys come by and stop outside of it, there are people standing on top of the trash (it's Mexico, and they've only recently purchased a few compacting garbage trucks), so some of these guys are shouting to one another while standing higher than the wall. Is this a way we might acquire the disease? It travels by aerosol, but how close do they need to be and for how long to acquire this infection if indeed it can be acquired this way? Who knew? So, when the trash guys are here, we close the door for 30 minutes. Is that fear? No it's intelligent risk management. I don't know what the chances of catching the virus this way was, but I do know that catching it could be devastating, whereas the cost of closing the door is basically just getting us to do it.

    I am hoping to avoid coming into contact with the more lethal variants, which are ten times more likely to be found in any given number of the unvaccinated as in an equal number of the vaccinated. If this wasn't a possibility, there would be no need to avoid them.

    Good luck to you and your husband what ever you do. And though I think it would be a mistake for me to follow in your footsteps, I'm not trying to guilt you. Maybe these words will be helpful to somebody.
     
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  9. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    No one is right or wrong if they do or don't take the vaccine.

    No one is a hero or villain if they do or don't take the vaccine.

    No one should be called names if they do or don't take the vaccine.

    No one should be belittled if they do or don't take the vaccine.

    No one should be disrespected if they do or don't take the vaccine.

    These 5 vaccine commandments I present to everyone ;)
     
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  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    If someone gives me a distinct insult like a couple of days ago, which does not happen often, I will contact site feedback.
     
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    And now I just hired you on as my new God. :D
     
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  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    You should post them up somewhere. Nice.
     
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not doubt that those are your motives but I was referring to most people’s motives. Of course we cannot know people’s motives unless we ask, I just have an opinion. I think most people are selfish. I do not think most people are like you because you care about humanity, not only yourself. You would have made a good Baha’i. :)
    Although those are your true feelings? I understand. I have strong feelings about certain things and I try not to blurt them out but sometimes I slip up. The other day I said I would burn every Bible in the world if I could and I could not live that down. I am coming to the conclusion I should not post to Christians anymore. There is no point because they do not ever budge one iota on what they believe. Of course I am not budging either but then again I do not believe my religion is “the only way.” The belief that Jesus is the Only Way and Christianity is the Only True Religion just drives me up a tree. :(
    Maybe you misunderstood what I was asking so I will restate it.

    If people were asked to do something that that they did not want to do, something that provided no benefit to themselves, in order to help others, don’t you think they would rebel and refuse? Well, we already know that many people have done that when they refused to do such a simple thing as wearing a mask, and they refused to cancel their holiday travel plans. So many people are selfish. That is one thing I respect you for because I know that you are not selfish. Trying to protect yourself and your wife is not selfish.

    BTW, I am constantly doing what I don’t want to do by continuing to be a Baha’i because I believe it is the right thing to do to help others.
    Fair enough. You cannot be too careful, and if you can do it why not do it? I am just not all planned and organized that way. My way if dealing is just to stay home except for groceries and vet appointments and luckily I don’t need anything else. Nobody comes on our property which is basically like a fortress.
    I appreciate that. Every bit of new information is beneficial for me and others and I do take everything you say into consideration. I am not an anti-vaxxer; I just have not made a choice yet. It’s kind of like I am not anti-retirement, I just have not made a choice yet. I play everything by ear.
     
    #273 Trailblazer, Apr 6, 2021 at 6:56 PM
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021 at 7:45 PM
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  14. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    What are you on about?

    Well you seem to be encouraging people to ignore their advice.

    That should be 'gods' - they do not believe in the same entity. Whichever god you believe in, most people think you are wrong.

    Of course it's not irrelevant. The word 'God' without further explanation is meaningless.

    Nobody has ever objectively demonstrated that any sort of god exists. Although you can have an expert in beliefs in gods, you can't have an expert in their existence if you have exactly zero objective evidence to go on.

    The short term evidence is quite clear for both the vaccine and what it prevents. Also, vaccines have a very good track record.

    The short-term risk of COVID are known. Hence the evidence at present, is totally clear about the path of least risk.

    What are you talking about? Vaccines produce an immune response that can be and is measured.

     
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  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Statistics do not predict individual risks, all they do is give the overall picture and scare people.
    No, that is NOT what I am doing. I think everyone should do what is right for them and their individual life situation, and given most life situations involve social interactions I think most people should get the vaccine.
    That was not my point. My point was that most people believe in something they call God (or gods) that is greater than themselves.
    That is true, if we were having a discussion about God, but we were talking about vaccines.
    That’s true.
    That’s true.
    If you are talking about risk of getting seriously ill and/or hospitalized and/or dying the path of least risk is taking the vaccine, from what we know so far. But there is more to health than just one virus that might make one sick.
    That might be true, but other effects upon the body cannot be measured and as such they cannot be known. If people want to be single-focused on preventing the symptoms of Covid-19 that is their choice, but I think more broadly and I consider my long-term health. Although I have no fear of death, I have a certain amount of anxiety about what it will be like in the next world. But the main thing is that I don’t want to leave behind those I love and am responsible for, which is a good reason to try to maintain the good health I have and stick around as long as possible.
     
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  16. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    If someone does have severe reactions or death from the vaccine the manufacturers cannot be sued. It’s unlikely or very difficult to receive compensation from the government either.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html
     
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  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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  18. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    Had my second jab. :ghost:
     
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  19. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    My husband and I received our vaccination this week. So far no side affects at all. It was the J&J vaccine, so there's no second shot.
     
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  20. goledensilence

    goledensilence New Member

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    I haven't had it and don't plan on taking it. The thing for me is I just don't see the point of getting this experimental vaccine injected into my body. It doesn't stop you from getting COVID and it gives people a false sense of security. We still have to social distance and we still have to wear masks so there's no real reward. I also saw an article that said the vaccine would be good for up to a year so why on earth would I want to take it? Lets also look at the companies being able to make the vaccine. I don't trust Johnson & Johnson at all. They have a faulty history with their baby powder and they recently had to toss out a bunch of vaccines because of an error. AstraZeneca's vaccine was recently linked to blood clots as well.
     
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