• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Classic failed science predictions and a faulty cosmological model exposed

dad

Undefeated
Nope archeology does not support the OT.
Archeology of the Hebrew Bible

"William Dever, Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, -
From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people
Most things are upsetting to some people . So? I see no questions raised in your quote. Only glib doubts.


One of the first efforts of biblical archeology in the last century was to prove the historicity of the patriarchs, to locate them in a particular period in the archeological history. Today I think most archeologists would argue that there is no direct archeological proof that Abraham, for instance, ever lived.
What were they looking for? His tomb is in Israel! Ha. Three religions accept Abraham as real!

We do not just see bent light, we see black holes and all sorts of astronomical events that gravity makes predictions about and those predictions are accurate. Our best evidence shows it's the same laws of physics we have here.
Hey, we all see stuff out there. You just explain what we see with your religion.

Exactly, you could say a turtle did that! And that's exactly what you are doing! HA HA But science doesn't do that, it creates models and predictions and goes with whatever provides the best evidence.
Nonsense. The little dense hot soup thingie was a lot more squeezed in than a turtles insides! Of course science invents stuff.

Yes except these "fables" have evidence. When evidence supports something else then science will explore that evidence.
You beliefs are not evidence. Get over it.

I don't "believe" in inflation. It's a model that has some reasons to think it's true and some to think it's wrong. That's what science does, it investigates and looks for new evidence, models, ideas and such.
Inflation might be completely wrong. But unlike turtles and your idea it has evidence.
So you have no clue either way and admit it may be wrong, but claim it has evidence so it's cool. Seriously?

"Fishbowl" = turtles. Provide evidence.
False. The term fishbowl refers to the solar system and area. We have actual evidence that exists and that man has not been more than a light day away via probes.


You are being disingenuous and dishonest in this request. You know you could Wiki Radiometric dating yourself.
No one asked you to explain radioactive decay. You made a claim that gave distances to stars. You were asked to explain how.

Observed on earth 140 years ago.

You then said - "So they say the distance is 25,000 ly away. Then they say we saw the light 140 years ago. Ha." You said "HA" because if the supernova was 140 years old and 25000 light years away that cannot make sense. So you said "HA". Because that cannot make sense.

But..................at the end of the article they corrected the mistake and said the supernova was over 25000 years old. Is it really this hard to admit you made a mistake? This actually explains a lot.
I see. So now you need to prive distance out to 25,000 ly! Good luck with that.

RIght and why would the nature of spacetime that we have locally be different beyond the solar system?
Who says spacetime exists beyond the fishbowl? Time of some sort likely exists and space of some sort also. We do not know that space and time are woven together as they are here in the fishbowl though, out in deep space.

Especially when we can see that everything is operating the same
Being observed here in our time we would experience and see it all in our time here. That does not mean that the same time is involved out there!

. OH wait, I KNOW, I KNOW!!!!....because the light coming to us is actually coming from a completely different set of physical laws ...AND the light just happens to fool us and make it look like the laws are the same!!
Well, I could argue for some variation of that, however that is another topic for another thread! In this thread the issue is what time is like out there, and space. (not laws)
DO I have evidence? No of course not, this idea is the same as turtles. So am I just saying that it's a possibility? NO!!!!!! I KNOW EVERYTHING.

Losing it eh?

Maybe a new force will be discovered that could produce a black hole, who knows what science will discover?
Maybe God has a recycle system of death and new birth in the universe as He does on earth? Who knows what black holes really are, and what they really do? Since science does not know sizes or distances though, what they claim is 1000 times a big as the sun might be the size of a football field for all we actually know. The implications are staggering.

In modern physics time is 1 dimension of spacetime.
They visualize it that way. That doesn't really mean much. They do not know what time is! They do not know what space is! Time and space as we know it in the fishbowl may be 'spacetime'. All that means is fishbowl time and space! Tat has no application for the universe at large.

It slows from acceleration and gravity and these effects have been demonstrated. So time follows the laws of physics.
Yes, fishbowl space and time are known to work a certain way. Thus far, and no further, you shall not pass!
 

dad

Undefeated
And outside of your make-believe world and into the actual world the Israelites emerged from the Canaanites around 9BC. The Canaanites gods were headed by El and Asherah. Yahweh was a minor storm god.
Prior to that was Egypt. Your myths were not remotely the first.
False. Egypt was post flood! God and His people and history were around a long time before this.



He does not appear to have been a Canaanite god, although the Israelites were originally Canaanites.
[23][24][Notes 3] The current scholarly consensus is that Yahweh was originally a "divine warrior from the southern region associated with Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman".
Then the consensus for believers is that the foolish phony ignorant so called scholars do not know God or history or truth. So?



HA, did I not say this was one big " I know you are but what am I". And here you go copying my words.
When talking about black holes and stars we usually think of big. However you would need to be clear.

GR is the reason planets orbit suns. GR is the reason sun form. GR is the reason asteroids come from deep space and orbit our sun.
Strange fantasies. Of course you have no proof.

Planets, suns and orbits are all things we see across the universe.
How do you think that helps you?


You need to be more precise if you want a response. YOu already know we see light from deep space.
You see light here. Nowhere else. Ever. Period. We see it in our space and our time here. That tells us nothing about deep space time.
Spacetime is a huge part of modern physics.
Prove it exists outside the area of the solar system?

Special relativity and Minkowski's work on relativity have shown time is 1 of a 4 dimensional spacetime.
Relativity is relative to the fishbowl. Minkie did not even know what time was!


We are here. This provides zero evidence that our solar system operates with different laws of physics than any other. In fact we can clearly see we are one of billions all operating under the universal laws.
There you go with that silly laws canard again. It gets old fast. The issue, once again, for deep space is not laws.


I know right? So funny. Science with their learning new stuff all the time? WTF? What a bunch of weirdos huh!
HEY SCIENCE.......did you improve on your theories today? HA! Good burn, am I right?

HEY SCIENCE.........did you change your story today??? Right though? Damn son..I mean, no germs, germs...hey science MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
The real joke these days is that anyone would care what the dreamers say or how often they change their foolish stories.
C'mon, we don't see Yahweh changing his mind.
True.

Because we see gravity across the universe.
That means very little when we see it at unknown distances working on objects of unknown size. How could you do the math??

I know you believe this can't possible be the same gravity
First we would need to know distances and sizes. You don't. Then we might ask some other questions like could anything change of affect gravity, or are there any other forces we do not know about that could mimic it or be confused with it etc etc etc. Science is not even in kindergarten on these matters!

Black holes, neutron stars. galaxy formation, galaxy clusters, pulsars, superclusters are all examples of GR operating in space just as it does here.
You have never seen a galaxy form. You think it takes millions of years. You have been looking what, a hundred years or a few hundred? Ha.

Inflation might be wrong? Yep.
That means all the stuff after it would be wrong also.
.

Yes if the model has predictive power and evidence it could be worth exploring. Like most science deniers I'm sure you are ok with modern advances in medicine like MRI, Xrays and all sorts of computer technology. Yet when the scientific method is applied to cosmology you get all worked up because your LOTR fantasy book might be threatened.
Ideas must be properly applied where they are applicable. You do not get to apply them willy nilly and project into all the universe.


Demons are from myths
Says you. History and millions of people would disagree.


there are limits to sizes suns can be and an entire science of understanding the composition, size, and so on of suns.
False. You do not even know distances or sizes of any star. That is not science, but sorcery misnamed!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Says the science denier who believes in sorcery.
Exactly. And thank God that most Christians actually do accept most scientific axioms, and most Christian theologians don't have a problem with accepting the ToE as they feel God was behind it all.

Accordingly, God was and is the "Immovable Mover", as Aquinas called Him, and science explains what happened next as far as the evolution of our universe, Earth, and life-forms. The fact that material things evolve is just plain old common sense based on overwhelming observations, and genes are material things-- thus life evolves. Therefore, the ToE is enlightenment based on facts that should overwhelm the darkness of medieval superstition but, unfortunately, with some they prefer the darkness, I guess.

Thus, science is not the enemy of Christianity, but ignorance very much can be.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Most things are upsetting to some people . So? I see no questions raised in your quote. Only glib doubts.

What you see is irrelevant. The article explains archeology shows the myths in the OT were enlarged to seem more spectacular than than they were, that exodus is likely a myth, that Israel was not monotheistic but the more popular religion has Yahweh have a consort Ashera, that nothing in the OT is even meant to be historical and that no stories from the OT can be shown to be true from archeology.
It was Thomas Thompsons work however that united the field in the belief that Moses and the patriarchs are myth and were not actually real people.



What were they looking for? His tomb is in Israel! Ha. Three religions accept Abraham as real!

There are many ways archeologists verify past events. Three religions also think Yahweh is a real god yet that is obvious mythology. Religions believe scriptures regardless of the truth. There are billions of Hindu who believe Lord Krishna walked the earth based on scripture and oral stories passed down.
That's what religions/myths do, they tell stories about make-believe people and gods.

Hey, we all see stuff out there. You just explain what we see with your religion.

Science is not religion because it's always looking to re-evaluate theories and laws and look for new discoveries. Only science denier fundamentalists with their head stuck in the mud sit in their parents basement using science machines to tell people how wrong science is. Their reasoning? Well they learned about it from other science denier fundamentalists. Who needs evidence when you can deny science and make up your own reality?

Nonsense. The little dense hot soup thingie was a lot more squeezed in than a turtles insides! Of course science invents stuff.

The fact remains, your idea is = turtles. Same amount of evidence, predictive power and lack of viable theory.

You beliefs are not evidence. Get over it.

I didn't say my beliefs were. We see and measure electromagnetism which is evidence. We interpret it using out best understanding. what you do is make stuff up with zero evidence to match up with your book of sorcery.

So you have no clue either way and admit it may be wrong, but claim it has evidence so it's cool. Seriously?

Yes you follow evidence and see if it pans out. It might not? What exactly is your problem with that?
When you fly on the next airplane do you want it to have been built from lesser models, each time gaining improvments and allowing us to see what improvements could be made. Or would you rather have someone draw up a new draft for a new design for a plane and you get in and fly the test flight?

You understand the scientific method as well as anyone else. You're just being a big baby.

False. The term fishbowl refers to the solar system and area. We have actual evidence that exists and that man has not been more than a light day away via probes.

I know what it means. It means turtles.




I see. So now you need to prive distance out to 25,000 ly! Good luck with that.

No I don't. I don't need to prove anything to you? I am 100% fine with you sitting around in obscurity, learning zero science, internet trolling, denying science, never having evidence for your idea, making fundamentalists look like crackpots and never winning a debate. Totally fine.

Who says spacetime exists beyond the fishbowl? Time of some sort likely exists and space of some sort also. We do not know that space and time are woven together as they are here in the fishbowl though, out in deep space.

Because we can see things operate the same in deep space. Until you demonstrate all that is some "illusion" you are a crazy-person.

Being observed here in our time we would experience and see it all in our time here. That does not mean that the same time is involved out there!

troll using turtles theory

Well, I could argue for some variation of that, however that is another topic for another thread! In this thread the issue is what time is like out there, and space. (not laws)

we can see what it's like.
This is evidence that it's the same. What is your line of evidence to counter that ???

Losing it eh?

I was doing a version of you. Der.

Maybe God has a recycle system of death and new birth in the universe as He does on earth? Who knows what black holes really are, and what they really do? Since science does not know sizes or distances though, what they claim is 1000 times a big as the sun might be the size of a football field for all we actually know. The implications are staggering.

Black holes are Saurons way of eating the universe. The one ring when used with the others creates the illusion of the laws of physics in deep sapce acting the same as earth. And Middle Earth.

They visualize it that way. That doesn't really mean much. They do not know what time is! They do not know what space is! Time and space as we know it in the fishbowl may be 'spacetime'. All that means is fishbowl time and space! Tat has no application for the universe at large.
space and time follow strict rules and we see those rules being followed across the universe. DO you have evidence that this visual is an illusion?
We expect X-rays from black holes and other events in deep space. When these x-rays arrive what is your evidence that something different is happening? Why have you not tried to explain these nonsense theories? Not even a reason?

Yes, fishbowl space and time are known to work a certain way. Thus far, and no further, you shall not pass!

You say the laws go no farther and give no evidence. Trolley, troll troll.
when you go to San Fran do you ride the TROLLEY?
Is your favorite sport TROLLEY BALL?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
False. Egypt was post flood! God and His people and history were around a long time before this.
Yes there were other cultures but Yahweh did not exist until 9BC:
From the 9th into the 6th centuries BCE the Yahwistic religion separated itself from its Canaanite heritage as Yahweh became the main god of the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and of Judah.

Far before Genesis were much earlier flood stories, one - Epic of Gilamesh is almost the exct Noah story. This is where the Israelites took the myth from:

For well over a century scholars have recognised that the Bible's story of Noah's ark is based on older Mesopotamian models.[11] Because all these flood stories deal with events that allegedly happened at the dawn of history, they give the impression that the myths themselves must come from very primitive origins, but the myth of the global flood that destroys all life only begins to appear in the Old Babylonian period (20th–16th centuries BCE).[12] The reasons for this emergence of the typical Mesopotamian flood myth may have been bound up with the specific circumstances of the end of the Third Dynasty of Ur around 2004 BCE and the restoration of order by the First Dynasty of Isin.[13]

There are nine known versions of the Mesopotamian flood story, each more or less adapted from an earlier version. In the oldest version, inscribed in the Sumerian city of Nippur c.1600 BCE, the hero is King Ziusudra. This is known as the Sumerian Flood Story and probably derives from an earlier version. The Ziusudra version tells how he builds a boat and rescues life when the gods decide to destroy it. This remains the basic plot for several subsequent flood-stories and heroes, including Noah. Ziusudra's Sumerian name means "He of long life". In Babylonian versions his name is Atrahasis, but the meaning is the same. In the Atrahasis version, the flood is a river flood.[14]:20–27

The version closest to the biblical story of Noah, as well as its most likely source, is that of Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh
Noah's Ark - Wikipedia

This is how historians put the events. Now, as well as science denying I imagine you will go into some history denial as well. Fine with me, take the loss. I smashed your science now I''' smash your history.



Then the consensus for believers is that the foolish phony ignorant so called scholars do not know God or history or truth. So?

Well they don't know your pretend mythical version in your mind no? But in the real world smart people know stuff about history. And historical records show Yahweh was a minor storm god who lived on a tent on a hill. El was the chief Canaanite god while Yahweh lived on a hill"

El, "the kind, the compassionate", "the creator of creatures", was the chief of the Canaanite gods,[38] and he, not Yahweh, was the original "God of Israel"—the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[39] He lived in a tent on a mountain from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, with the goddess Asherah as his consort.[38][40]"

Keep that knowledge out of your folks basement! Don't let it in!

When talking about black holes and stars we usually think of big. However you would need to be clear.

Is this what it's like when you try to be clever? I'm embarrassed.

Strange fantasies. Of course you have no proof.
How do you think that helps you?
You see light here. Nowhere else. Ever. Period. We see it in our space and our time here. That tells us nothing about deep space time.
Prove it exists outside the area of the solar system?
Relativity is relative to the fishbowl. Minkie did not even know what time was!
There you go with that silly laws canard again. It gets old fast. The issue, once again, for deep space is not laws.

That means very little when we see it at unknown distances working on objects of unknown size. How could you do the math??[

First we would need to know distances and sizes. You don't. Then we might ask some other questions like could anything change of affect gravity, or are there any other forces we do not know about that could mimic it or be confused with it etc etc etc. Science is not even in kindergarten on these matters!


all of those responses assumes a idea you haven't proven, given evidence, given one single source and is a fantasy you want to be true for some reason.
However you have failed to show it's a reasonable possibility and have lost all lines of debate pertaining to it.
I'm not answering to your trolling "turtles" crap any longer. I can only win once, now it's just repeating the same stupid point over and over?

You have never seen a galaxy form. You think it takes millions of years. You have been looking what, a hundred years or a few hundred? Ha.

We can see it's evolution. They follow the laws of physics just fine.

That means all the stuff after it would be wrong also.
Big bang cosmology doesn't require inflation.
.

Ideas must be properly applied where they are applicable. You do not get to apply them willy nilly and project into all the universe.

And seeing electromagnetism and using it to make assumptions is a proper application. Until an alternative arrives.
Do you actually think all scientists working on outer space should now just say "hey let's no longer assume the light we are looking at is actually carrying correct information. Let's just assume that for no reason even though it appears like it is carrying correct information and it fits the idea that the laws are universal, even though it does that, and even though are calculations about gravity waves DID come true and even though the CMB experiments DID work out and countless other breakthroughs, let's just drop it all.
Let's all just go back to out parents basement and wait until Yahweh casts a spell of illumination. We can troll other scientists online and when they ask for evidence we will just ignore their requests and keep saying the same stuff over and over.
Says you. History and millions of people would disagree.

Demons are myths. Millions of people saw Sai Baba levitate and surgically heal people in India in the early 1900's. Yes, they were all fooled. People believe all sorts of nonsense, by the millions.
Millions of people believe in an alien crash at Roswell. Millions of people think mediums talk to their dead grandmothers. Millions of people think psychics are real yet not one physic ever predicted a global pandemic from China in 2020, the race riots or any other specific event. Not one even saw the internet was coming.
The devil entered Judaism after the Persian invasion.
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam"


Congratulations still believing in Persian myths.

False. You do not even know distances or sizes of any star. That is not science, but sorcery misnamed!


Yes we know the drill, light coming in from deep space has been altered by alternate forces of nature. Or is it alternate forces from demons? So it can't be trusted. Says the crazy dude in his folks basement with zero evidence.
The only remaining mystery is why would you want to continue debating something you have been getting completely spanked on? You make a statement and you give evidence. If it's a conspiracy theory then you give even better evidence. You think the laws of physics "must" be different but they conspire in such a way as to make it "seem" like they are consistent across the universe.

You failed to give any type of evidence for this wack-a-doodle non-science, religious dogma in the first post and just seem to want to continue to get beat up. When I ask for evidence and you do a run-around, give no evidence but keep stating the same thing, as if your point stands, but it doesn't.
You haven't even elevated it out of - guy on a street corner with cardboard sign "The world Will End Tomorrow" status yet? That's you getting whooped. Over and over and over....
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You see light here. Nowhere else. Ever. Period. We see it in our space and our time here. That tells us nothing about deep space time.
How do you know or what makes you believe that there exists "deep space"?
Prove it exists outside the area of the solar system?
If we cannot assume that light works outside of the solar system according to the same physical laws as here, what evidence is there that there exists anything outside our solar system? It cannot be anything that we see, because according to you we can't assume light works according to the same laws outside the "fishbowl" (nor can we assume that physics in general does) so there exists infinitely many possible explanations for why there appears to be something outside the solar system when in fact it is merely e.g. the spontaneous emission of light at the boundaries of the actual fishbowl universe. Basically, if we can't assume that basic notions such as light operate outside the solar systems as they do here, then what evidence do we have for such a thing as "outside our solar system/fishbowl"?
 

dad

Undefeated
What you see is irrelevant. The article explains archeology shows the myths in the OT were enlarged to seem more spectacular than than they were, that exodus is likely a myth, that Israel was not monotheistic but the more popular religion has Yahweh have a consort Ashera, that nothing in the OT is even meant to be historical and that no stories from the OT can be shown to be true from archeology.
It was Thomas Thompsons work however that united the field in the belief that Moses and the patriarchs are myth and were not actually real people.
For those that believe there is no God, it might be hard to know what to look for as evidence. For example, we would not look for old bread remains in the dessert (manna). God had those removed each day. He is quite a clean Guy and an amazing recycler. Likewise, He was there Personally leading the freed slaves day and night. So why would I expect some messy remains in the dessert?

There are billions of Hindu who believe Lord Krishna walked the earth based on scripture and oral stories passed down.
So what? What if they were? Why would I care? There are real spirits, good and bad.

That's what religions/myths do, they tell stories about make-believe people and gods.
No. Natural, physical only science tells us it is all natural, and if they can't see it it doesn't exist.


Science is not religion because it's always looking to re-evaluate theories and laws and look for new discoveries.
False. It is a religion that is so false that is has to have built in mechanisms to replace belief based claims exposed as false and wrong.

Try to remember that smart people that doubt the belief based nonsense sold as science are not science deniers. They are just honest!
The fact remains, your idea is = turtles. Same amount of evidence, predictive power and lack of viable theory.
Speaking of honesty I never offered any turtle idea.

I didn't say my beliefs were. We see and measure electromagnetism which is evidence.
You see and measure it here! It does exist here as we know.
We interpret it using out best understanding.
Interpreting is not projecting.

When you project out into the unknown, all you do is make stuff up with zero evidence to match up with your false so called science religion of sorcery.


Yes you follow evidence and see if it pans out. It might not? What exactly is your problem with that?
You do not follow what we know, you project. Man has no probes even one little light day away from earth. For that area we can know some things. We can tell how much time for example a signal takes to reach earth. Out in the wild black cosmos you cannot know or do that. So you project and invent and make stuff up.


When you fly on the next airplane do you want it to have been built from lesser models, each time gaining improvments and allowing us to see what improvements could be made. Or would you rather have someone draw up a new draft for a new design for a plane and you get in and fly the test flight?
Planes moving in the fishbowl are totally irrelevant to deep space time.

Because we can see things operate the same in deep space. Until you demonstrate all that is some "illusion" you are a crazy-person.
We see light from deep space here. Nowhere else. Ever. Seeing light here tells us nothing at all about time and space out there. Think out of the fishbowl.


space and time follow strict rules and we see those rules being followed across the universe.
Get a grip. You have never seen anything out of the time that we have here in the fishbowl.
DO you have evidence that this visual is an illusion?
The light that enters the fishbowl is real. What it means and tells us is a matter of belief. For example the time involved in that light reaching us.

We expect X-rays from black holes and other events in deep space. When these x-rays arrive what is your evidence that something different is happening? Why have you not tried to explain these nonsense theories? Not even a reason?

All sorts of wavelengths of light reach the fishbowl. Just because they do does not mean that they do for the reasons you have invented and because of your religion.

You say the laws go no farther and give no evidence
How many times will you claim time is a law? Seriously?
 

dad

Undefeated
Yes there were other cultures but Yahweh did not exist until 9BC:
When the written record of the creator that Adam and Eve knew came down is not when God started to work or exist.
Far before Genesis were much earlier flood stories,
Again, the written record is not the marker of when a record existed.
one - Epic of Gilamesh is almost the exct Noah story. This is where the Israelites took the myth from:
Not at all, the other way round. Your dates are wrong, and you are operating under false assumptions.

There are nine known versions of the Mesopotamian flood story,
Irrelevant, that was not the flood of Noah.



And historical records show Yahweh was a minor storm god who lived on a tent on a hill. El was the chief Canaanite god while Yahweh lived on a hill"
Sounds like some stoned out pagans used to walk the earth if they wrote that!
I would not look to peoples that engaged in child sacrifices for records myself.


We can see it's evolution.
I do not believe you. You did not see a star millions of years ago. You inserted a godless belief set and imaginary time onto what ewe see!
Big bang cosmology doesn't require inflation.
That is a pillar of the fable. Wear it.

And seeing electromagnetism and using it to make assumptions is a proper application.
You can call what you see in the fishbowl anything you like.

Until an alternative arrives.
It arrived! It is called you never really knew at all.
Do you actually think all scientists working on outer space should now just say "hey let's no longer assume the light we are looking at is actually carrying correct information.
No more than I would assume all muslims would suddenly say 'let's all believe in the hindu gods now instead'.

Let's just assume that for no reason even though it appears like it is carrying correct information and it fits the idea that the laws are universal,

No thanks. I prefer sanity and actual reason. I also do not passionately embrace wild baseless beliefs that lead to anti bible conclusions. You see when people do that, and then badmouth believers, the bible and God, this tells us why they embraced the delusion.

Demons are myths.
Says you, who has no possible way of knowing. Why revel in ignorance?

Millions of people saw Sai Baba levitate and surgically heal people in India in the early 1900's.
Rope?


The devil entered Judaism after the Persian invasion.
The serpent, also called Satan and the devil actually was here since the garden.


Yes we know the drill, light coming in from deep space has been altered by alternate forces of nature.
Time is not a force of nature nor is space. Focus.
Your religion is exposed.
 

dad

Undefeated
Three religions also accepted the Earth is fixed while the sun move.

Three religions also accepted slavery and other types of servitude/bondage.
The bible says earth is a fixture of our reality. It does not say it doesn't move. The bible showed God setting slaves free, so you seem to have your gods conflated.
 

dad

Undefeated
How do you know or what makes you believe that there exists "deep space"?
That is a common term. We can see stars and they are a lot further out than spacecraft. Why do you have something against the idea it is a bigger universe than man has been to?
If we cannot assume that light works outside of the solar system according to the same physical laws as here, what evidence is there that there exists anything outside our solar system?
I have not talked about laws. I have pointed out that we do now know what time is like out there. When we see incoming light from far beyond the area of the solar system, it is assumed there is a lot out there.

It cannot be anything that we see, because according to you we can't assume light works according to the same laws outside the "fishbowl" (nor can we assume that physics in general does)
No. What is not known is what time is like out there. Time or space. So let's not hear you claim anything took billions of years.
so there exists infinitely many possible explanations for why there appears to be something outside the solar system when in fact it is merely e.g. the spontaneous emission of light at the boundaries of the actual fishbowl universe.
The bible says God made the stars. That means that they are real. I do not need science to tell me this.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is a common term. We can see stars and they are a lot further out than spacecraft.
No, what we can see is light we assume to be light and electromagnetic radiation more generally we assume to be reflected or emitted from things like stars outside this solar system because we assume that light and physics more generally holds elsewhere outside the solar system as it does here.
You question that assumption. Ok, no problem. The issue then becomes the basis for assuming anything about what you "see" or might "see" using technology (or anyone else might "see") because all you "see" is light in this solar system. You cannot see distant stars. You assume you can because you assume that there is no reason to suppose that outside the fishbowl things work differently such that you can't trust light signals or other information from "deep space". But then you question that assumption by asserting that we have no basis for assuming how light and other physical constants, laws, properties, etc., function outside the fishbowl.
Fine. So what basis do you have for asserting there exists anything "outside" the fishbowl? All you ever see is light inside the fishbowl. You have no basis for asserting that it ever came from outside the fishbowl as to do so would be to assert that light must behave in such a way as to reliably transmit information such that e.g., stars exist because we appear to see them.

When we see incoming light from far beyond the area of the solar system, it is assumed there is a lot out there.
Yes, because we assume that we can trust properties of light to behave in "deep space" as they do here.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
For those that believe there is no God, it might be hard to know what to look for as evidence. For example, we would not look for old bread remains in the dessert (manna). God had those removed each day. He is quite a clean Guy and an amazing recycler. Likewise, He was there Personally leading the freed slaves day and night. So why would I expect some messy remains in the dessert?

Thanks, I'll call archeology and tell them not to look for bread (manna).

As to Exodus, there isn't evidence outside the Bible, in historic documents and the archeological record, for a mass migration from Egypt involving hundreds of thousands of people.
There is no evidence of armed conflict of Israelites invading Canaanite cities.
Archeology isn't disproving the OT but it's showing it's not what it claims to be (in other words they are myths).


"The stories of Solomon are larger than life. According to the stories, Solomon imported 100,000 workers from what is now Lebanon. Well, the whole population of Israel probably wasn't 100,000 in the 10th century. Everything Solomon touched turned to gold. In the minds of the biblical writers, of course, David and Solomon are ideal kings chosen by Yahweh. So they glorify them.

Now, archeology can't either prove or disprove the stories. But I think most archeologists today would argue that the United Monarchy was not much more than a kind of hill-country chiefdom. It was very small-scale."

Now, as well as telling physicists and cosmologists they are wrong you have suggestions for biblical archeologists. The monumental degree to your "wrongness" should be apparent by now to anyone reading.


So what? What if they were? Why would I care? There are real spirits, good and bad.
Because it demonstrates that millions or even billions of people can believe myths are real.

No. Natural, physical only science tells us it is all natural, and if they can't see it it doesn't exist.
Where does science say if you can't see something it doesn't exist? Did someone tell you that? Science requires evidence. If you think something is real then build a model, make predictions, prove it exists.


False. It is a religion that is so false that is has to have built in mechanisms to replace belief based claims exposed as false and wrong.
Provide an example.
Science is also right sometimes. If you drive a car, fly, use medical technology and use a computer then you are a hypocrite.
But you clearly don't know what you are talking about because science doesn't do belief. Only evidence. In your parents basement you might not be aware but many scientists still question and investigate things not yet proves (like inflation). So your conspiracy is a rant about something you made up in your mind.

Try to remember that smart people that doubt the belief based nonsense sold as science are not science deniers. They are just honest!

Whomever "they" is it isn't you. You are dishonest. I keep asking for source and evidence to support your turtles idea and you ignore the request but continue to make the same assertions.

Speaking of honesty I never offered any turtle idea.

But you did. Fishbowl = turtles.

You see and measure it here! It does exist here as we know.
Interpreting is not projecting.

turtle

When you project out into the unknown, all you do is make stuff up with zero evidence to match up with your false so called science religion of sorcery.

So you are saying cosmology is as B.S. as religion?

You do not follow what we know, you project. Man has no probes even one little light day away from earth. For that area we can know some things. We can tell how much time for example a signal takes to reach earth. Out in the wild black cosmos you cannot know or do that. So you project and invent and make stuff up.

Nope. They make theories and models and test them. The idea that electromagnetism isn't universal and only works local has no grounds for belief. Yet you thinks it's 100% true. Science is operating under the model that EM waves coming from space are giving us accurate data. So far no discrepencies or reasons to think otherwise has presented itself.
GR predicted gravity waves. We built a detector and found them coming from deep space. So not only does the EM spectrum give us information that fits our models but so does gravity/spacetime.

Is your mission in life to sit in your parents basement and bit(h about it? Why don't you get a PhD in cosmology and work towards demonstrating your idea?


Planes moving in the fishbowl are totally irrelevant to deep space time.

They are not. They both use the scientific method. Gravity and light from space are also investigated using the same scientific method.
If the laws of physics are different by continuing to study the universe this will also eventually be found out. Your solution is to whine and offer no explanation?

We see light from deep space here. Nowhere else. Ever. Seeing light here tells us nothing at all about time and space out there. Think out of the fishbowl.

The light travels from deep space. The gravity waves travel from deep space. How do you know that the light tells us nothing? How do you know the gravity waves tell us nothing?



Get a grip. You have never seen anything out of the time that we have here in the fishbowl.
turtle, show evidence. until then this is turtle nonsense. Also troll nonsense.

The light that enters the fishbowl is real. What it means and tells us is a matter of belief. For example the time involved in that light reaching us.

source your turtle idea


How many times will you claim time is a law? Seriously?

Time follows laws laid out in special relativity and general relativity. Time is a dimension, like space.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
When the written record of the creator that Adam and Eve knew came down is not when God started to work or exist.

God as a deity may or may not exist. The mythic Yahweh was made up by people around 9BC
You can believe whatever you like but scholarship recognizes Adam and Eve as just another myth:

"While a traditional view was that the Book of Genesis was authored by Moses and has been considered historical and metaphorical, modern scholars consider the Genesis creation narrative as one of various ancient origin myth"

Analysis like the documentary hypothesis also suggests that the text is a result of the compilation of multiple previous traditions, explaining apparent contradictions.[53][54] Other stories of the same canonical book, like the Genesis flood narrative, are also understood as having been influenced by older literature, with parallels in the older Epic of Gilgamesh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve


Again, the written record is not the marker of when a record existed.
The fact remains that when the Epic of Gilamesh was written not only were there no Israelites but no Canaanites or even Egyptians.
Entirely different gods were worshipped and the gods you believe in were far from being invented yet.

Not at all, the other way round. Your dates are wrong, and you are operating under false assumptions.

Nope. Noah - 6BC - Gilamesh 1600 BC
Because of elements of the story it can be dated to certain times:

"Noah's Ark - At one extreme are those who see it as a product of the Hellenistic period, in which case it cannot be earlier than the first decades of the 4th century BCE;[12] on the other hand the Yahwist (Jahwist) source has been dated by others, notably John Van Seters, to the exilic pre-Persian period (the 6th century BCE), precisely because the primeval history contains so much Babylonian influence in the form of myth"

While the earliest flood myth is from Mesopotamina:

"The flood myth originated in Mesopotamia.[21] The Mesopotamian story has three distinct versions, the Sumerian Epic of Ziusudra, (the oldest, dating from about 1600 BCE), and as episodes in two Babylonian epics, those of Atrahasis and Gilgamesh.[22]"

These are the facts from scholarship. Once again you are not even going to try to source your illiterate ideas?

Irrelevant, that was not the flood of Noah.

Right. The flood of Noah is also a mythical flood but written over 1000 years later into the myths of a different culture.


Sounds like some stoned out pagans used to walk the earth if they wrote that!
I would not look to peoples that engaged in child sacrifices for records myself.
That was a description of the original god of Israel - "the original "God of Israel"—the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[39] He lived in a tent on a mountain from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, with the goddess Asherah as his consort."

Later the Israelites conflated all the mythic gods into one:
"The Israelites initially worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal.[7] In the period of the Judges and the first half of the monarchy, El and Yahweh became conflated in a process of religious syncretism."

Even then Yahweh is a storm god:
"Yahweh is a warrior for his people, a storm-god typical of ancient Near Eastern myths, marching out from a region to the south or south-east of Israel with the heavenly host of stars and planets that make up his army"

BTW, Yahweh commanded the Israelites to kill the women and children of 6 nations. Deuteronomy 22.

Evidence for Canaanite child sacrifice was written into OT myths but archeologists have found no evidence they did anything except what Israel also did - kill animals for magic blood atonement rituals.

I do not believe you. You did not see a star millions of years ago. You inserted a godless belief set and imaginary time onto what ewe see!
If we know a supernova happened 25000 years ago and we see what it looks like now (140 light years away) and it's following the projected evolution of a supernova explosion this is evidence that time is operating the same out there. You can whine about it all day. Science doesn't care, it keeps gathering evidence and moving forward.
Meanwhile you get to use all the technology created by this scientific method. Next time you need surgery are you going to use prayer instead?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That is a pillar of the fable. Wear it.

No BB does not require inflation. Things change quickly in cosmology. New telescopes and supercomputers will help as well.
In fact plugging the laws of physics into a supercomputer and letting it run produces a universe exactly like we see. Even MORE evidence that the laws are universal.

It arrived! It is called you never really knew at all.
And yet all the predictions we have made have come true? Gravity waves, predicted, showed up,

No more than I would assume all muslims would suddenly say 'let's all believe in the hindu gods now instead'.
Muslims would believe in Lord Krishna if they had the lines of evidence cosmologists have for the laws of physics working in deep space.


No thanks. I prefer sanity and actual reason. I also do not passionately embrace wild baseless beliefs that lead to anti bible conclusions. You see when people do that, and then badmouth believers, the bible and God, this tells us why they embraced the delusion.

And there it is folks. He cannot reconcile a book of ancient myths with modern cosmological findings so we get the turtles/fishbowl nonsense. Finally you admit it. A fraud. You don't provide a source or evidence because there isn't any.
You are the dude who wanted Nicolaus Copernicus thrown in jail because he dared suggest the earth revolved around the sun.

Says you, who has no possible way of knowing. Why revel in ignorance?

I revel in evidence. Demonstrate demons.


Maybe? You get the idea, myths are B.S. They teach you life lessons but when the followers interpret the stories as literal you get people believing in fiction. Like demons.
Joseph Campbell - "Mythology = other peoples religion, religion = misunderstood religion


The serpent, also called Satan and the devil actually was here since the garden.
Genesis is from around:

"Scholars in the first half of the 20th century came to the conclusion that the Yahwist is a product of the monarchic period, specifically at the court of Solomon, 10th century BC, and the Priestly work in the middle of the 5th century BC (with claims that the author is Ezra), but more recent thinking is that the Yahwist is from either just before or during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century BC, and the Priestly final edition was made late in the Exilic period or soon after.

The early mentions of Satan are of him working with God to do God's violence -
"In 2 Samuel 24, Yahweh sends the "Angel of Yahweh" to inflict a plague against Israel for three days, killing 70,000 people as punishment for David having taken a census without his approval.

Satan tortures Job:
and so on.

the later ideas about Satan appear AFTER the Persian invasion ending around 300BC. At this point all of the common features of modern Satanism are borrowed from the Persian Zoroastrianism:

Historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[7] Christianity, Islam,[8] the Bahá'í Faith, and Buddhism.[9]

"and the modern infatuation with Satan influencing believers left and right was a late invention not happening until the middle ages:
During the Early Modern Period, Christians gradually began to regard Satan as increasingly powerful[144] and the fear of Satan's power became a dominant aspect of the worldview of Christians across Europe.
Satan - Wikipedia

Time is not a force of nature nor is space. Focus.
Your religion is exposed.
I have never said time or space is a force of nature.
Spacetime is a 4-dimensional field which the laws of special and general relativity describe.
I keep saying this over and over and you keep writing "uhhh...time is not a force of nature uhh....."
why do you keep repeating this.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The bible says earth is a fixture of our reality. It does not say it doesn't move. The bible showed God setting slaves free, so you seem to have your gods conflated.
Non-Hebrew slaves were treated as bad as any slave in history, including early American slavery:

Non-Hebrews, on the other hand, could (according to Leviticus 25:44) be subjected to slavery in exactly the way that it is usually understood. The slaves could be bought, sold and (when their owner died) inherited. This, by any standard, is race- or ethnicity-based, and Leviticus 25:44-46 explicitly allows slaves to be bought from foreign nations or foreigners living in Israel. It does say that simply kidnapping Hebrews to enslave them is a crime punishable by death (Deuteronomy 24:7), but no such prohibition exists regarding foreigners. War captives could be made slaves, assuming they had refused to make peace (this applied to women and children — men were simply killed), along with the seizure of all their property (Deuteronomy 20:10-15).

Hereditary slaves were born into slavery and there is no apparent way by which they could obtain their freedom.


Hereditary Slaves
The children of slaves were born into slavery. Exodus 21:4d (NASB):

If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.

Children and Women slaves of War:

deuteronomy 20
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you
If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.


Murdering Women and Children

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroya]">[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 20 - New International Version

Or y'know Yahweh could just have said "don't follow their gods? Wow, that's some bad morality. Slavery to murder.


 

dad

Undefeated
No, what we can see is light we assume to be light and electromagnetic radiation more generally we assume to be reflected or emitted from things like stars outside this solar system because we assume that light and physics more generally holds elsewhere outside the solar system as it does here.
What you feel is not important here.
The fact is that you have one little observation point in this universe. It is here and only here that you experience space and time. It is here that radiation exists that we observe.

You question that assumption. Ok, no problem. The issue then becomes the basis for assuming anything about what you "see" or might "see" using technology (or anyone else might "see") because all you "see" is light in this solar system.
No. What is in the fishbowl is seen and we know what it is like here. We know how fast light moves here. It is here that is the basis for our observations and experiences. When you see something entering this fishbowl from deep in space, we do not know what it existed as out there, before it got here. If time were different that would mean we could not gauge what time anything out there involved by looking at how long something takes here.

You cannot see distant stars. You assume you can because you assume that there is no reason to suppose that outside the fishbowl things work differently such that you can't trust light signals or other information from "deep space".
God made stars to be seen by man. So yes we see them. Merely seeing a tiny star in space does not tell us much. That star would be of unknown origin and size and distance for example if time were not the same out there.

But then you question that assumption by asserting that we have no basis for assuming how light and other physical constants, laws, properties, etc., function outside the fishbowl.
No one said laws. I mentioned space and time not laws.

Fine. So what basis do you have for asserting there exists anything "outside" the fishbowl? All you ever see is light inside the fishbowl. You have no basis for asserting that it ever came from outside the fishbowl as to do so would be to assert that light must behave in such a way as to reliably transmit information such that e.g., stars exist because we appear to see them.
I have the basis that God created the stars to be seen. They are there. That does not mean they got there in the way science claims or that they have a future as predicted by science, or that they are the distance science says, or the size.

Yes, because we assume that we can trust properties of light to behave in "deep space" as they do here.
The properties of light would not be what make light take so much time to move is space. The thing that matters is time itself.
 

dad

Undefeated
Thanks, I'll call archeology and tell them not to look for bread (manna).

As to Exodus, there isn't evidence outside the Bible, in historic documents and the archeological record, for a mass migration from Egypt involving hundreds of thousands of people.
There is no evidence of armed conflict of Israelites invading Canaanite cities.
Archeology isn't disproving the OT but it's showing it's not what it claims to be (in other words they are myths).
Part of the problem on your end is that your dates are wrong. Then you have the problem of not knowing what to look for and not to look for. Then you have the problem of holding pagan records as some indicator of truth or reality in the past about God or the flood etc.

"The stories of Solomon are larger than life. According to the stories, Solomon imported 100,000 workers from what is now Lebanon. Well, the whole population of Israel probably wasn't 100,000 in the 10th century.
Chapter and verse?

Everything Solomon touched turned to gold. In the minds of the biblical writers, of course, David and Solomon are ideal kings chosen by Yahweh. So they glorify them.
God did make him rich...so?

Now, archeology can't either prove or disprove the stories. But I think most archeologists today would argue that the United Monarchy was not much more than a kind of hill-country chiefdom. It was very small-scale."
It was huge in God's eyes. I would question what makes it seem small in your eyes.

Now, as well as telling physicists and cosmologists they are wrong you have suggestions for biblical archeologists. The monumental degree to your "wrongness" should be apparent by now to anyone reading.
I hope so because there sure is a monumental degree of wrongness going around.

Because it demonstrates that millions or even billions of people can believe myths are real.
Guess they all should have asked you what to believe then?

Where does science say if you can't see something it doesn't exist?
Where does physical natural science say spirits exist or that they can see them?

Did someone tell you that? Science requires evidence. If you think something is real then build a model, make predictions, prove it exists.
Science only deals in the natural. No one can show it evidence outside that little box it stuffed itself in. Don't blame us.

Provide an example.
The OP shows science was wrong in a prediction.
Science is also right sometimes
So are corner psychics. So?

. If you drive a car, fly, use medical technology and use a computer then you are a hypocrite.
If you claim any of that pertains to the edges of the universe or to the spiritual or to what nature existed on earth at the dawn of time, you are fooling no one.

But you clearly don't know what you are talking about because science doesn't do belief. Only evidence.
Your evidence for nature on earth being the same in the far past, is....?


Whomever "they" is it isn't you. You are dishonest. I keep asking for source and evidence to support your turtles idea and you ignore the request but continue to make the same assertions.
I have no turtles or turtle beliefs as you know, yet you persist in dishonesty.


But you did. Fishbowl = turtles.
No. The fishbowl is a term for the solar system and area. Nothing to do with animals.


So you are saying cosmology is as B.S. as religion?
Di I need to point that out?

Nope. They make theories and models and test them. The idea that electromagnetism isn't universal and only works local has no grounds for belief.
You can start by showing us how electromagnetism as seen on earth equals time in the far universe?!

Yet you thinks it's 100% true. Science is operating under the model that EM waves coming from space are giving us accurate data. So far no discrepencies or reasons to think otherwise has presented itself.
Accurate as it can be when it exists in the fishbowl!

GR predicted gravity waves. We built a detector and found them coming from deep space.
You can start off by showing us that ripples in spacetime do not start once they hit spacetime here!?
You seem to want to project our spacetime of the fishbowl into all the universe. If you are in a room, and someone is blasting huge speakers pointed at your walls with very loud music, the sound waves will rock your room. That does not mean they rock the universe.
So not only does the EM spectrum give us information that fits our models but so does gravity/spacetime.
The only spacetime you know is in the fishbowl.

They are not. They both use the scientific method. Gravity and light from space are also investigated using the same scientific method.
They are investigated where? Here. The scientific method is to investigate here and pretend it applies all over.


If the laws of physics are different by continuing to study the universe this will also eventually be found out. Your solution is to whine and offer no explanation?
I doubt man will ever get even two light days away before God returns to take over earth. Science can never ever ever possibly come to a knowledge of the truth! Impossible. Pretending it will one day is false hope.

The light travels from deep space. The gravity waves travel from deep space. How do you know that the light tells us nothing? How do you know the gravity waves tell us nothing?
Nothing that supports your belief based models. A star does tell us it exists. It might tell us it is a little bluer or bigger than many other stars. It does not tell us size or distances or origins.


Time follows laws laid out in special relativity and general relativity.
Prove time even exists in deep space at all as we know it? Your fishbowl imagination has run wild.
Time is a dimension, like space.
That may be the way you need to perceive it and conceptualize it. That does not mean you know what time is, and certainly does not mean you know what time in deep space is.
 

dad

Undefeated
God as a deity may or may not exist. The mythic Yahweh was made up by people around 9BC
You can believe whatever you like but scholarship recognizes Adam and Eve as just another myth:
Says who? You made that up. God was not invented in 9BC.

"While a traditional view was that the Book of Genesis was authored by Moses and has been considered historical and metaphorical, modern scholars consider the Genesis creation narrative as one of various ancient origin myth"
Not scholars that matter or know what they are talking about.

Analysis like the documentary hypothesis also suggests that the text is a result of the compilation of multiple previous traditions, explaining apparent contradictions.[53][54] Other stories of the same canonical book, like the Genesis flood narrative, are also understood as having been influenced by older literature, with parallels in the older Epic of Gilgamesh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve
The flood was before that epic of Gilgamesh. Guess who copied?


The fact remains that when the Epic of Gilamesh was written not only were there no Israelites but no Canaanites or even Egyptians.
No. That is made up conjecture.

Entirely different gods were worshipped and the gods you believe in were far from being invented yet.
Just because demons were known does not mean others did not know the One God.
Nope. Noah - 6BC - Gilamesh 1600 BC
Show us how you date that. The flood was probably closer to around 2500BC. Not sure how you 'date' the other.

Because of elements of the story it can be dated to certain times:

"Noah's Ark - At one extreme are those who see it as a product of the Hellenistic period,
Foolish dreamers.
in which case it cannot be earlier than the first decades of the 4th century BCE;[12] on the other hand the Yahwist (Jahwist) source has been dated by others, notably John Van Seters, to the exilic pre-Persian period (the 6th century BCE), precisely because the primeval history contains so much Babylonian influence in the form of myth"
How has it been dated?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth
While the earliest flood myth is from Mesopotamina:

"The flood myth originated in Mesopotamia.[21] The Mesopotamian story has three distinct versions, the Sumerian Epic of Ziusudra, (the oldest, dating from about 1600 BCE), and as episodes in two Babylonian epics, those of Atrahasis and Gilgamesh.[22]"

The flood was long before these. Your dreams about it having originated with post flood pagans is laughable.

Right. The flood of Noah is also a mythical flood but written over 1000 years later into the myths of a different culture.
The flood was likely somewhere around 2500BC. All civilizations we know are after that time. Your dates are faith based nonsense. Since you avoid the obvious here, let me remind you that radioactive dating will be your resort here. Ha.


That was a description of the original god of Israel - "the original "God of Israel"—the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[39] He lived in a tent on a mountain from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, with the goddess Asherah as his consort."

Later the Israelites conflated all the mythic gods into one:
"The Israelites initially worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal.[7] In the period of the Judges and the first half of the monarchy, El and Yahweh became conflated in a process of religious syncretism."

Even then Yahweh is a storm god:
"Yahweh is a warrior for his people, a storm-god typical of ancient Near Eastern myths, marching out from a region to the south or south-east of Israel with the heavenly host of stars and planets that make up his army"
You really think that citing screaming mad foolishness makes it real or something?

BTW, Yahweh commanded the Israelites to kill the women and children of 6 nations. Deuteronomy 22.

Evidence for Canaanite child sacrifice was written into OT myths but archeologists have found no evidence they did anything except what Israel also did - kill animals for magic blood atonement rituals.
I am not here to question the goodness of God in directing His people to take police action on wicked people. I suppose some people feel that the wicked are the good guys. Not my problem.

If we know a supernova happened 25000 years ago
You know this...how? Ha.
and we see what it looks like now (140 light years away)
False. You cannot speak of distances beyond a light day away! You are just making a statement of faith that time is the same out there, based on nothing at all.
and it's following the projected evolution of a supernova explosion this is evidence that time is operating the same out there
Nonsense. Your projected beliefs make it appear that way in your head.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
False. Egypt was post flood! God and His people and history were around a long time before this.
False.

There was no global flood as described in Genesis 6-8, therefore, there was never any post-Flood.

And Genesis 10 is not some historical records, and the Table of Nations are wrong about Egypt, and about the cities in Babylonia and Assyria, and there was no such person as Nimrod.

In Genesis 10:11-12, it say Nimrod had Nineveh and Calah built in Assyria:

“Genesis 10:11-12” said:
11 From that land he went into Assyria, and built Nineveh, Rehoboth-ir, Calah, and 12 Resen between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city.

The problems here, is that Nineveh was first settled about 6000 BCE, but only began to a prominent city around 3200-3000 BCE, while Calah (or Kalhu in Assyrian, but now called Nimrod since the 19th century) was built by Shalmaneser I who ruled during the 2nd quarter of the 13th century BCE.

It is not possible for Nimrod to built both Nineveh and Calah/Kalhu, since their earliest settlements are dated so far apart.

That you think there were a pre-Flood and a post-Flood, not only demonstrated your history illiteracy, but your utterly blind faith in a myth.

If you are going to stick your head in the sand, that’s really your rights to believe whatever you like and really your problem.
 
Top