Classic failed science predictions and a faulty cosmological model exposed

[dad]

False.

There was no global flood as described in Genesis 6-8, therefore, there was never any post-Flood.

This is not really a thread to recite your baseless beliefs and misconceptions. Prove it.

And Genesis 10 is not some historical records, and the Table of Nations are wrong about Egypt, and about the cities in Babylonia and Assyria, and there was no such person as Nimrod.

The bible and Jewish tradition record Nimrod. Your claims have no merit.

In Genesis 10:11-12, it say Nimrod had Nineveh and Calah built in Assyria:


The problems here, is that Nineveh was first settled about 6000 BCE, but only began to a prominent city around 3200-3000 BCE

No problem whatsoever actually. If you try to support the dates we will see that they are based only on a belief that nature in the past was the same. Which part of keep your religion to yourself are you missing here exactly? This is your main problem, pushing religious dates with zero value. Get over it. Not interested.

, while Calah (or Kalhu in Assyrian, but now called Nimrod since the 19th century) was built by Shalmaneser I who ruled during the 2nd quarter of the 13th century BCE.

It is not possible for Nimrod to built both Nineveh and Calah/Kalhu, since their earliest settlements are dated so far apart.

Your dates are wrong so of course it is possible.

That you think there were a pre-Flood and a post-Flood, not only demonstrated your history illiteracy, but your utterly blind faith in a myth.

Did I put out a general call for baseless doubts, and ask for your uninformed beliefs?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

The fact is that you have one little observation point in this universe.

Well, that's the issue here, it isn't it? Ignoring for the moment that the entire solar system and galaxy we're in is and has been moving, cutting wide & vast swathes through the universe, there is the issue of what it means to say that we only have this planet or solar system or whatever it is from which to observe.
If we are all stuck in your little fishbowl, and cannot extrapolate (at least not soundly) from the laws and principles of physics that hold here (such as the nature of light), then there is no reason to assert that there is any vast universe at all. You have no basis (not even a biblical one) to assert anything about what happens outside the fishbowl anymore than anybody else (less, actually).

It is here and only here that you experience space and time. It is here that radiation exists that we observe.

Precisely. And assuming that we cannot extrapolate and generalize from the fishbowl in order to determine that indeed e.g., light works and travels the same way everywhere else in the universe, then we cannot even assert that anything exists outside the fishbowl. After all, you could imagine actually sitting in a very large and sophisticated fishbowl (like a planetarium) which may appear to you to be a vast starry sky, only it would be only the interaction of light from the "screen" of the fishbowl with your retinas.
Likewise, the night sky need not be a glimpse of a vast, starry universe but a very small one, perhaps with tiny little specks that we think are gigantic stars only because of the way light works in this fishbowl.

No. What is in the fishbowl is seen and we know what it is like here.

And no where else, including that there is anywhere else or anything else.

I have the basis that God created the stars to be seen. They are there.

Can you read Hebrew and Greek?

 

[dad]

Well, that's the issue here, it isn't it? Ignoring for the moment that the entire solar system and galaxy we're in is and has been moving, cutting wide & vast swathes through the universe, there is the issue of what it means to say that we only have this planet or solar system or whatever it is from which to observe.

Movement is not the issue. How much time is involved in that move is the issue. To know this (for deep space) we would need to know that time is the same everywhere.

If we are all stuck in your little fishbowl, and cannot extrapolate (at least not soundly) from the laws and principles of physics that hold here (such as the nature of light), then there is no reason to assert that there is any vast universe at all.

Y
Nonsense. God told us it was vast and that stars were made by Him. That is a reason. There is no reason to think that just because we don't know it all, that there is no universe! That is ridiculous.

ou have no basis (not even a biblical one) to assert anything about what happens outside the fishbowl anymore than anybody else (less, actually).

False. The bible does contain a few hints. Science is clueless.

Precisely. And assuming that we cannot extrapolate and generalize from the fishbowl in order to determine that indeed e.g., light works and travels the same way everywhere else in the universe, then we cannot even assert that anything exists outside the fishbowl.

False. Light does not need to be in a lab to exist. Nor does it need to be in just a city to exist. Light exists wherever it is. If that light is here in this solar system area then it exists IN our space and time.

After all, you could imagine actually sitting in a very large and sophisticated fishbowl (like a planetarium) which may appear to you to be a vast starry sky, only it would be only the interaction of light from the "screen" of the fishbowl with your retinas.

Great. Hopefully we would be aware we were in a planetarium.

Likewise, the night sky need not be a glimpse of a vast, starry universe but a very small one, perhaps with tiny little specks that we think are gigantic stars only because of the way light works in this fishbowl.

As far as science goes we could apply this to some degree, yes.

And no where else, including that there is anywhere else or anything else.

Can you read Hebrew and Greek?

Why would we need to read Greek to see stars God made?

 

[gnostic]

No problem whatsoever actually. If you try to support the dates we will see that they are based only on a belief that nature in the past was the same. Which part of keep your religion to yourself are you missing here exactly? This is your main problem, pushing religious dates with zero value. Get over it. Not interested.

You speaking a lot of craps, dad, because the genealogy in Genesis 5 and 11, recorded patriarchs living for hundreds of years, eg Adam, 930, Noah, 950, etc.

Can you prove that these patriarchs lived to such very ages, or are these ages are nothing more than embellished myths?

Unless you have bodies to verify their ages, then you have nothing more than blind faith to Genesis narratives authenticity.

No one know who started settling in Nineveh, and there are no names written around 3200 BCE, when Nineveh was flourishing city, with temples built for their goddess Ishtar that predated the Bronze Age worship of Ishtar. But after 2500 BCE, rulers in Assyria recorded the reigns of kings in annals in cities like Nineveh and Assur, which continued until the fall of Nineveh in late 7th century BCE.

Likewise, it is recorded that Kalhu or the biblical was built in the late Bronze Age in the reign of Shalmaneser I (1274 - 1245 BCE). There is no doubts in archaeology and written records that Kalhu/Calah is much younger city than both Assur and Nineveh in Assyria.

If you wanted to prove to us that Nineveh, Assur, Uruk, and Egypt are much younger than showed evidence that’s true. You can’t because you are relying on the Bible, and not archaeology of these sites and not any written records.

It is you need to provide dates of much later times for not only Nineveh, but also for Assur, Uruk (Erech) and Egypt (Mizraim).

Archaeology have already provided dates, and I know that you disagree with dates, but where are your evidence they were built at much date later?

Unless you have evidence, you have nothing but your personal and very biased opinions.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

God told us it was vast and that stars were made by Him. That is a reason. There is no reason to think that just because we don't know it all, that there is no universe! That is ridiculous.

The question is the extent to which the descriptions in the bible cohere with your understanding (one reason for my asking about your knowledge of Greek and Hebrew; I don't mind translating but transliteration is a pain and it is nice just to be able to quote the original text without worrying so much about either). What is described in the bible differs from place to place,but not by much. The problem is that it is consistent with a "vast" universe in which stars are contained within this solar system, galaxies don't exist, and even the nature of light and celestial bodies is potentially inconsistent with a vast universe of stars and planets and other astronomical bodies that we know exist. Indeed, most commentators up until recently seemed to have interpreted the texts to say something quite different from what we would expect (which is why knowledge of galaxies and the actual vastness of space, not to mention the motion within and of the solar system were completely absent).

False. The bible does contain a few hints. Science is clueless.

These hints appear to be quite well hidden. Interestingly, the appear to change over time as well, being interpreted to be more compatible with what we know about the universe as we know it, not because of what is said.

False. Light does not need to be in a lab to exist.

It needs to be in your fishbowl in order for us to say anything about it not contained in the bible (assuming you are capable of reading it; if not, then contained in translations of it). This isn't much at all and is consistent with infinitely many different bizarre scenarios, including our being in something like a giant, sophisticated fishbowl or planetarium.

Light exists wherever it is. If that light is here in this solar system area then it exists IN our space and time.

Ok, but 1) this is actually many different spaces and times even within this solar system and 2) the issue is what we can infer given a universe in which we only know the properties of space, time, light, etc., within your fishbowl.

I'm just trying to understand what can be inferred given your assumptions.

 

[dad]

You speaking a lot of craps, dad, because the genealogy in Genesis 5 and 11, recorded patriarchs living for hundreds of years, eg Adam, 930, Noah, 950, etc.

Can you prove that these patriarchs lived to such very ages, or are these ages are nothing more than embellished myths?

Why would we be able to prove how long someone lived? Your personal incredulity is of no value and based on nothing at all.

No one know who started settling in Nineveh, and there are no names written around 3200 BCE, when Nineveh was flourishing city, with temples built for their goddess Ishtar that predated the Bronze Age worship of Ishtar.

Show us the basis for you dates!? Ha.

But after 2500 BCE, rulers in Assyria recorded the reigns of kings in annals in cities like Nineveh and Assur, which continued until the fall of Nineveh in late 7th century BCE.

Show the basis for your dates.

Likewise, it is recorded that Kalhu or the biblical was built in the late Bronze Age in the reign of Shalmaneser I (1274 - 1245 BCE). There is no doubts in archaeology and written records that Kalhu/Calah is much younger city than both Assur and Nineveh in Assyria.

So? Show the basis for all dates and then offer a point as to why anyone would care what was older?

If you wanted to prove to us that Nineveh, Assur, Uruk, and Egypt are much younger than showed evidence that’s true. You can’t because you are relying on the Bible, and not archaeology of these sites and not any written records.

Easy to do. Just show this evidence of how you arrived at dates!

It is you need to provide dates of much later times for not only Nineveh, but also for Assur, Uruk (Erech) and Egypt (Mizraim).

No. All we need to do is look at the belief based premise for your so called sates.

Archaeology have already provided dates, and I know that you disagree with dates, but where are your evidence they were built at much date later?

It is not a matter of anyone agreeing. It is a matter of those offering dates to show exactly how they arrived at them.

 

[gnostic]

The bible and Jewish tradition record Nimrod. Your claims have no merit.

Do you really think I haven’t read Jewish traditions before?

And I am quite sure I have read a lot more than you.

A large part of Jewish traditions are recorded in rabbinic literature, including the Midrash, Haggadah and Talmud. Some are also found in non canonical literature, such as the collection labelled under Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, eg the Book of Jubilees.

Have you read any traditions at all?

Second.

Like the Genesis, traditions are not history, and are terribly unreliable because it often include myths, legends, folklore, allegories.

Christians have their own traditions about apostles and disciples, which are so varied, that I had hard times distinguishing historical from fictions.

Only theologians and scholars might take Jewish or Christian traditions seriously.

You do say and claim the silliest things, and think you had won some brownie points. You’re hilarious.

 

[dad]

...

 

[dad]

The question is the extent to which the descriptions in the bible cohere with your understanding (one reason for my asking about your knowledge of Greek and Hebrew; I don't mind translating but transliteration is a pain and it is nice just to be able to quote the original text without worrying so much about either). What is described in the bible differs from place to place,but not by much. The problem is that it is consistent with a "vast" universe in which stars are contained within this solar system,

Great so the bible does speak of a vast universe created by God. It doesn't really matter what translation we use either.

galaxies don't exist,

Yet groups of stars were known, such as Pleiades.Interestingly, some people think there may have been some differences in the ancient sky. One example is that only six stars are visible today from this constellation, while possibly seven were visible back in ancient times.

and even the nature of light and celestial bodies is potentially inconsistent with a vast universe of stars and planets and other astronomical bodies that we know exist. Indeed,

Inconsistent with what? The bible is very different than science when it comes to the nature of light, where it came from, how it exists in deep space. I see nothing at all that we observe today that is inconsistent with Scripture though.

most commentators up until recently seemed to have interpreted the texts to say something quite different from what we would expect (which is why knowledge of galaxies and the actual vastness of space, not to mention the motion within and of the solar system were completely absent).

The bible talks about the courses of stars! The sun is also mentioned. Calendars were set to the motions of the moon. Not only that, but the bible hints at motions in the past and future that science has no clue about. You see Scripture covers not only the present, as science tries to do, but the far past and future also. The bible also mentions some things about the universe out there that are far deeper than anything science ever dreamed of. For example, we are told of the future destiny of this universe we see. We are also informed that there are fallen angels that currently live out there, and have some association with visible stars in the sky. ..and more!

These hints appear to be quite well hidden. Interestingly, the appear to change over time as well, being interpreted to be more compatible with what we know about the universe as we know it, not because of what is said.

I disagree. I suggest science does not know about the universe or much about what it can see. Instead, science projects a set of beliefs out into the universe, seeking to explain all we see by that little box of tricks.

It needs to be in your fishbowl in order for us to say anything about it not contained in the bible (assuming you are capable of reading it; if not, then contained in translations of it). This isn't much at all and is consistent with infinitely many different bizarre scenarios, including our being in something like a giant, sophisticated fishbowl or planetarium.

No. It is in response to what science claims that the term fishbowl was needed. That is to show the limits of where man has been and knows about.

Ok, but 1) this is actually many different spaces and times even within this solar system

I would disagree. Just because we have some dilation in this area of the solar system does not mean that time itself is different here! All it means is that different conditions result in a stretching or slight change.

and 2) the issue is what we can infer given a universe in which we only know the properties of space, time, light, etc., within your fishbowl.

The answer is that unless the whole universe shares identical space and time, you cannot infer much at all, and all the models of science on the universe are hopeless skewed.

I'm just trying to understand what can be inferred given your assumptions.

What should be inferred is that there is a creator, and that the inferences of godless science about origins are a joke.

 

[dad]

Do you really think I haven’t read Jewish traditions before?

And I am quite sure I have read a lot more than you.

Bully for you I guess.

A large part of Jewish traditions are recorded in rabbinic literature, including the Midrash, Haggadah and Talmud. Some are also found in non canonical literature, such as the collection labelled under Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, eg the Book of Jubilees.

Have you read any traditions at all?

I did read enough to make the point I made. Address it.

Second.

Like the Genesis, traditions are not history, and are terribly unreliable because it often include myths, legends, folklore, allegories.

If they oppose Scripture I would dismiss them. However, since they do represent in some cases, records passed down, and considered valid, I see no reason to dismiss Israel's culture and records out of hand and entirely for no reason.

Christians have their own traditions about apostles and disciples, which are so varied, that I had hard times distinguishing historical from fictions.

Well, we do have a way, we have Scripture. Basically if any Christian tradition opposes the bible, gong! If they don't, then who much cares?

Only theologians and scholars might take Jewish or Christian traditions seriously.

Well it depends how serious you think 'seriously' means. If more than one tradition mentions Peleg and Noah and Abraham, for example, I would suggest that is serious. Now when it comes to little details about how Abraham may have lived with Noah for a few years or something, well, I would take that with a grain of salt. Yet I still find it interesting and would not rule it out at all unless there was some very solid reason.

You do say and claim the silliest things, and think you had won some brownie points. You’re hilarious.

I try to be as gentle as possible with weak and low grade posts, within reason.

 

[joelr]

Part of the problem on your end is that your dates are wrong. Then you have the problem of not knowing what to look for and not to look for. Then you have the problem of holding pagan records as some indicator of truth or reality in the past about God or the flood etc.

They are not "my" dates. It's scholarship. Get your PhD, write a paper, get it peer-reviewed and see how that goes. Until then the dates are correct. I knew you would go from science denial to historicity denial but to actually see it for real is still funny.

At the least support your dates with psuedo-historical crank authorship. To just say "wrong" is just full on moron.

Chapter and verse?

Out of the one hundred fifty-three thousand six hundred non-Israelite people living in Israel, Solomon put one hundred fifty-three thousand of them to forced labor: “Solomon had seventy thousand laborers and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hill country” (1 Kings 5:15).

In Hebrew, the word translated “laborers” is nōsē’ sabbāl, an expression that means “a burden bearer.” Thus, according to 1 Kings 5:15, there were 80,000 men cutting stones in the mountains and 70,000 men carrying the stones to the building sites.

Forced Labor Under Solomon

God did make him rich...so?

They are explaining why Solomon was enlarged in the stories.

It was huge in God's eyes. I would question what makes it seem small in your eyes.

It's portrayed literally large in scripture. In real life it wasn't. They are myths.

I hope so because there sure is a monumental degree of wrongness going around.

And you have demonstrated exactly zero of it.

Where does physical natural science say spirits exist or that they can see them?

Science does not say spirits don't exist. Science says there is no evidence that stands up to scrutiny. Do you believe in Faries, Thor or Krishna? Nope. Why, lack of good evidence.
Your myths just happen to also have bad evidence.

Science only deals in the natural. No one can show it evidence outside that little box it stuffed itself in. Don't blame us.

Wrong again. Science deals with whatever evidence exists. Dark matter isn't "natural" in that it doesn't fir the standard model but there is evidence so science investigates.
Guess what, a crap ton of studies have been done on spirits and ESP, that ALWAYS FAIL at providing evidence better than random chance.

So are corner psychics. So?

Psychics are correct at random chance rates. Science built your computer but you are such a caveman you don't realize this. Did you think MRI machines use magic?
Did you think X-ray scans use sorcery?
This rabbit hole of "wrongness" you are choosing to go down is too easy to smash.

If you claim any of that pertains to the edges of the universe or to the spiritual or to what nature existed on earth at the dawn of time, you are fooling no one.

most of those technologies use quantum mechanics. The BB theory also uses quantum mechanics.

Your evidence for nature on earth being the same in the far past, is....?

Observation of EM waves. Observation of gravity waves which fit predictions of GR.

No. The fishbowl is a term for the solar system and area. Nothing to do with animals.

I'm calling fishbowl "turtles" from now on because the evidence for both ideas are equal. Zero. But anything using your turtles idea is not being responded to until you present further evidence. I'm taking the win and cashing out on that one.

Di I need to point that out?

Yes you do need to point out that religion is B.S.

You can start by showing us how electromagnetism as seen on earth equals time in the far universe?!

Because we know light speed and we often know the source of the EM because it creates an image?!
we have ways to measure light from the nearest star Alpha Proximi. You can investigate yourself. I'm not going around in circles with you on this any longer. You think it's all wrong but have no proof. I get it. Done.

You can start off by showing us that ripples in spacetime do not start once they hit spacetime here!?

You seem to want to project our spacetime of the fishbowl into all the universe. If you are in a room, and someone is blasting huge speakers pointed at your walls with very loud music, the sound waves will rock your room. That does not mean they rock the universe.
The only spacetime you know is in the fishbowl.

They are investigated where? Here. The scientific method is to investigate here and pretend it applies all over.

I doubt man will ever get even two light days away before God returns to take over earth. Science can never ever ever possibly come to a knowledge of the truth! Impossible. Pretending it will one day is false hope.

Nothing that supports your belief based models. A star does tell us it exists. It might tell us it is a little bluer or bigger than many other stars. It does not tell us size or distances or origins.

Prove time even exists in deep space at all as we know it? Your fishbowl imagination has run wild.

That may be the way you need to perceive it and conceptualize it. That does not mean you know what time is, and certainly does not mean you know what time in deep space is.

Nope. Until you show evidence of some cosmic "Truman Show" your turtles idea is pure crank. It's pure crazy that you think the solar system is really a bubble and Yahweh is sitting around outside sending in EM waves and gravity waves and anything else coming from deep space, just to give the appearance of a 94 billion light year size universe.

Even though a god could just create the universe in the first place, like he can't manage that and has to set up a big illusion?
If a god actually created a 94 billion light year wide universe and some internet troll was telling everyone it's really just the solar system and then a big movie screen illusion, I'd be really annoyed at this troll.

 

[joelr]

Says who? You made that up. God was not invented in 9BC.

Israel came from the Canaanites who worshipped El. Yahweh was not the first Israelite god, EL was the highest god.
Around 9BC they combined a bunch of gods into Yahweh and a subculture of monotheistic Israelites worshipped him. Eventually that sect became dominant.

"Israel emerges into the historical record in the last decades of the 13th century BCE, at the very end of the Late Bronze Age when the Canaanite city-state system was ending,[36] and the milieu from which Israelite religion emerged was accordingly Canaanite.[37] El, "the kind, the compassionate", "the creator of creatures", was the chief of the Canaanite gods,[38] and he, not Yahweh, was the original "God of Israel"—the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh

Yahweh - Wikipedia
Obviously there were other "highest" gods before them, Egypt had one supreme god and so forth.
The Yahweh myth started around 9BC.

Not scholars that matter or know what they are talking about.

Actually all scholars in the historicity field are in consensus that those are myth.
As usual you don't even try to post dates from some non-historian thelogian crank.

Moses - Wikipedia
"Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person,[10][11] while retaining the possibility that a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE.[12][13]"

CONSENSUS

The flood was before that epic of Gilgamesh. Guess who copied?

We don't need to guess, we have several fields of experts all confirming that the OT flood narrative was copied from older myths.

No. That is made up conjecture.

Is what religious fundamentalists said in the middle ages. Now we have archeologists who have shown us what actually happened.
The Israelites emerge around 13BC directly from the Canaanites who emerged from Egyptian cultures.

Just because demons were known does not mean others did not know the One God.

Yes every culture had demons and gods. All made up myths.

Show us how you date that. The flood was probably closer to around 2500BC. Not sure how you 'date' the other.

We know the dates Genesis was written.
The version closest to the biblical story of Noah, as well as its most likely source, is that of Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh.[15] The most complete text of Utnapishtim's story is a clay tablet dating from the 7th century BCE, but fragments of the story have been found from as far back as the 19th century BCE.

read the page, get your own knowledge:
Noah's Ark - Wikipedia

I'm not interested in your Pseudo-history fundamentalist crank re-writing of history -
another thing you seem to want to just go in circles on. No source, no evidence.
Like I've been saying "I know you are but what am I", is all you seem to want to do.

Foolish dreamers.

see - no source, no evidence. Just me being right and you attempting to go in endless circles.

How has it been dated?

Right, so I can explain how myths are dated and you will just write "foolish dreamers"

Are you aware of how to do research?
I get what you want to do. Take a flood myth written around 10BC-ish which copied earlier flood myths, all cultures did it, but then say your is the best and most real and it actually happened before all the others! YAY!
Well every culture can take their flood myth and say the same. Every culture probably did consider theirs to be the real one and pre-dates all the others. I guess it made sense in the Bronze age and during all ancient times. Nowdays most people realize these are just myths but whatever. Takes all types I guess?

The flood was long before these. Your dreams about it having originated with post flood pagans is laughable.

What flood, the floods are myth? But I'm still in awe at how bad you are at debates. This is like the 5th inquiry about flood dates (in a row) and you have still not put forth one shred of evidence?

The flood was likely somewhere around 2500BC. All civilizations we know are after that time. Your dates are faith based nonsense. Since you avoid the obvious here, let me remind you that radioactive dating will be your resort here. Ha.

RIght like I need radio dating to show a myth is a myth? Genesis copied one of hundreds of different flood myths that came before it.
Every known culture has a flood myth.
List of flood myths - Wikipedia

I already know your only evidence is a myth in the OT. The Bronze Age called, they want their archaic nosense beliefs back.

You really think that citing screaming mad foolishness makes it real or something?

Citing it doesn't make it real, it's actual history. Flat out denial is cool, it basically means I'm right.

Yahweh as a warrior storm god is from scripture? Is Exodus and Deuteronomy "mad foolishness"?

I am not here to question the goodness of God in directing His people to take police action on wicked people. I suppose some people feel that the wicked are the good guys. Not my problem.

So you stand by and say "not my problem" while women and children are murdered?
See what cults do to peoples minds and morals....

You know this...how? Ha.

False. You cannot speak of distances beyond a light day away! You are just making a statement of faith that time is the same out there, based on nothing at all.

Nonsense. Your projected beliefs make it appear that way in your head.

I'm done with your turtle crank. You failed to provide evidence and just want to go in circles. Exactly as I predicted at the start. And you are a liar. You said scientists only use "faith" and the theories are "based on nothing". An outright lie.
You know that visual evidence is a form of evidence. Analyzing gravity waves - "Analysis of the signal along with the inferred redshift suggested..." Is another form of evidence. So not only does your turtles idea have no evidence whatsoever you have to resort to lies to counter evidence against your idea.

 

[dad]

They are not "my" dates. It's scholarship.

If you preach them, post them, believe in them, they are your dates.

Get your PhD, write a paper, get it peer-reviewed and see how that goes.

You thought my peers were fishbowl philosophers?

Until then the dates are correct.

No the dates must remain what they are, belied based godless and foolish conjecture.

I knew you would go from science denial to historicity denial but to actually see it for real is still funny.

You thought I would expect a bible denier and spirits denier to know about actual history?

At the least support your dates with psuedo-historical crank authorship. To just say "wrong" is just full on moron.
Quote

To support any ancient dates with your religion is impossible. That includes bible dates. Stop pretending science can do it.

Out of the one hundred fifty-three thousand six hundred non-Israelite people living in Israel, Solomon put one hundred fifty-three thousand of them to forced labor: “Solomon had seventy thousand laborers and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hill country” (1 Kings 5:15).

In Hebrew, the word translated “laborers” is nōsē’ sabbāl, an expression that means “a burden bearer.” Thus, according to 1 Kings 5:15, there were 80,000 men cutting stones in the mountains and 70,000 men carrying the stones to the building sites.

Forced Labor Under Solomon

"Verse 15. Threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens
These were all strangers, or proselytes, dwelling among the Israelites; as we learn from the parallel place, 2 Chronicles 2:17,18. "
1 Kings - Chapter 5 - Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org
Solomon had friends. They contributed stuff. Trees, workers. Etc.

They are explaining why Solomon was enlarged in the stories.


It's portrayed literally large in scripture. In real life it wasn't. They are myths.

Your doubts and imagination are enlarged. Not much else.

Science does not say spirits don't exist. Science says there is no evidence that stands up to scrutiny.

There is no possible scrutiny of spirits using physical means.

Wrong again. Science deals with whatever evidence exists. Dark matter isn't "natural" in that it doesn't fir the standard model but there is evidence so science investigates.

First it makes stuff up. Then it tries to support that stuff with all investigations.

Guess what, a crap ton of studies have been done on spirits and ESP, that ALWAYS FAIL at providing evidence better than random chance.

That would be like studying what water is, when only using fire.

Psychics are correct at random chance rates.

Only in fishbowl chance.

Science built your computer but you are such a caveman you don't realize this. Did you think MRI machines use magic?

Do you think they have anything to do with spirits or creation of the far universe?

Did you think X-ray scans use sorcery?
This rabbit hole of "wrongness" you are choosing to go down is too easy to smash.

No, However interpreting incoming stuff from deep space is subject to some hocus pocus.

most of those technologies use quantum mechanics. The BB theory also uses quantum mechanics.

They use all sorts of things. The trick is to show how it matters or applies in deep space. Particularly to time and space.

Observation of EM waves. Observation of gravity waves which fit predictions of GR.

You see ripples is fishbowl space and time. what caused those ripples outside of the fishbowl is the issue. You talk about gravity in some galaxy that you cannot know the distances to or size of. How would anyone talk about any precise gravity when they basically don't know what they are looking at?

I'm calling fishbowl "turtles" from now on because the evidence for both ideas are equal.

You can call your cheerios turtles also if you like, who cares? The fishbowl is the solar system and area. You can call that what you like, it ain't going anywhere.

Because we know light speed

Only IN the fishbowl, and that is irrelevant.

and we often know the source of the EM because it creates an image?!

Whatever image you photoshop in the fishbowl is of limited import.

we have ways to measure light from the nearest star Alpha Proximi.

No. Prove it.
You absolutely may not assume time is the same all the way to Alpha Proximi. Man has not even sent a probe a light day away yet.

Even though a god could just create the universe in the first place, like he can't manage that and has to set up a big illusion?

God told us the stars were made to be seen and for TIME and seasons. It is science that preaches illusion. They are not aware the universe was created, so they have no clue that God could have made time different on earth than in the heavens.

If a god actually created a 94 billion light year wide universe and some internet troll was telling everyone it's really just the solar system and then a big movie screen illusion, I'd be really annoyed at this troll.

All distances and times you assign to the universe are made up and belief based and worthless dreaming.

This universe we see up there according to the bible will vanish is a day, in an hour, in a moment. Like a blind that is rolled up. Boom. Gone. All your ideas about what it is are wrong.

 

[joelr]

If you preach them, post them, believe in them, they are your dates.

They are "my" dates the same way modern heart surgery is "my" surgery and the standard model is "my" model of physics. There is no dispute among scholarship on those dates. If you have an argument against the historical dates of ancient cultures then make an argument and post sources.
So far all your history and science has been pure crank. SO I'm not expecting much.

You thought my peers were fishbowl philosophers?

No. RIght now your "peers" are other internet-troll, science deniers who spout crank ideas with no support from even their own religion.

No the dates must remain what they are, belied based godless and foolish conjecture.

Has nothing to do with "godless". Religious people don't deny dates of ancient myths?
Those people are just nutbars.
And again, you provide no source and present no argument.

If for example previous myths didn't already mirror the gospel myths about Jesus then why were 2nd century apologists saying that they did in fact do just that? Why were they saying the stories were similar but their latest Jesus myth was the best one?

You thought I would expect a bible denier and spirits denier to know about actual history?

I don't deny the bible, it's a book of myths same as the Greek epics.
I don't deny spirits, I'm still waiting for evidence.
By "actual history" you mean crank history and no, I do not care about that. Provide evidence or continue being wrong.

To support any ancient dates with your religion is impossible. That includes bible dates. Stop pretending science can do it.

Archeology and literary analysis follow many lines of evidence. Sitting in your folks basement and whining about how wrong entire fields of study is not any type of argument.
The Mesopotamian dynasties ranged thousands of years and through iconography, cross culture writings, archeological excavations and many more fields of study a fairly good history is known.
History of Mesopotamia - Wikipedia

No matter how much you troll scholarship, the world moves on and historical knowledge stands. Again, if you believe there may be discrepancies get a PhD, specialize in an area and go to work.

"Verse 15. Threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens

These were all strangers, or proselytes, dwelling among the Israelites; as we learn from the parallel place, 2 Chronicles 2:17,18. "
1 Kings - Chapter 5 - Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org
Solomon had friends. They contributed stuff. Trees, workers. Etc.

over 100,000. I gave you the verses and source. Turns out those are myths.

Your doubts and imagination are enlarged. Not much else.

Not much else, hmmm, let's check in with the world's leading biblical archeologist...

William Dever, Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years:

"but I think it does mean what happened was rather more modest. And the biblical writers have enlarged the story."
"The stories of Solomon are larger than life. According to the stories, Solomon imported 100,000 workers from what is now Lebanon. Well, the whole population of Israel probably wasn't 100,000 in the 10th century. Everything Solomon touched turned to gold. In the minds of the biblical writers, of course, David and Solomon are ideal kings chosen by Yahweh. So they glorify them.

Now, archeology can't either prove or disprove the stories. But I think most archeologists today would argue that the United Monarchy was not much more than a kind of hill-country chiefdom. It was very small-scale."

There is no possible scrutiny of spirits using physical means.

Of course there is? Here is just ONE for people in communication with any supernatural entity.
I've written down a 10 digit number and a word. Have your spirit communicate this information to you. This experiment can be done with anyone who claims communication with Thor, Jesus, any dead people and other options.

First it makes stuff up. Then it tries to support that stuff with all investigations.

In just the case of dark matter alone you are already wrong. That isn't how it happened.
Do you enjoy just being wrong constantly?

That would be like studying what water is, when only using fire.

No, ESP, remote viewing, they claim to have a skill that can easily be tested. It's not much different with psychics. How many psychics mentioned a pandemic was coming last year? Zero. But during actual tests they also fail.

Only in fishbowl chance.

Yes, you look at a playing card, the psychic tells you what you are looking at. Experiments like that never do better than random chance. This has nothing to do with turtles/fishbowls.

Do you think they have anything to do with spirits or creation of the far universe?

Any tech using quantum mechanics also related to creation cosmology because the theory is the universe was quantum in size. The microwave background would have a pattern if it were once quantum. That pattern was found. So th elaws of QM relate to creation.

No, However interpreting incoming stuff from deep space is subject to some hocus pocus.

They use all sorts of things. The trick is to show how it matters or applies in deep space. Particularly to time and space.

You see ripples is fishbowl space and time. what caused those ripples outside of the fishbowl is the issue. You talk about gravity in some galaxy that you cannot know the distances to or size of. How would anyone talk about any precise gravity when they basically don't know what they are looking at?

You can call your cheerios turtles also if you like, who cares? The fishbowl is the solar system and area. You can call that what you like, it ain't going anywhere.

Only IN the fishbowl, and that is irrelevant.

Nope. I've presented several lines of evidence on light/gravity/space being universal yet on your turtle idea and you have given no evidence. Until then your crank theory has no support and you've lost that part of the debate.
Any answer that requires fishbowl as an answer is not an answer but a cop-out and attempt to stall and waste time (as I predicted). They shall be wiped from the page until evidence is shown.

Whatever image you photoshop in the fishbowl is of limited import.

It doesn't require Photoshop. We can see many things in deep space with out eyes.

No. Prove it.
You absolutely may not assume time is the same all the way to Alpha Proximi. Man has not even sent a probe a light day away yet.

Probe is 16 light years so far. No change in time.
We can assume time is the same because the laws are universal, have no reason to think they will change and visual evidence shows galaxies and superclusters and so on, all moving in a way consistent with how time should work.Pulsars are sending us signals in exact even sequences and we recieve the light according to light speed. Light speed and time velocity are connected in SR.
Your idea that the solar system is really a big movie screen created by Yahweh to fool us into thinking these is a large universe outside of the solar system needs evidence before it's even in the conversation.

God told us the stars were made to be seen and for TIME and seasons. It is science that preaches illusion. They are not aware the universe was created, so they have no clue that God could have made time different on earth than in the heavens.

No Genesis says lə-’ō-ṯōṯ - for signs, ū-lə-mō-w-‘ă-ḏîm, and seasons, ū-lə-yā-mîm ū-lə-yā-mîm, for days and years

The Israelites understood that the stars can be used to mark months/seasons. That's all that means? But there are many Christian scientists, in fact all cosmologists who are Christian assume God created reality but have no issues with modern cosmology?

All distances and times you assign to the universe are made up and belief based and worthless dreaming.

When we found the gravity waves we used the techniques to trace it back to it's source.
Oh, look, right where the waves were supposed to have been produced were 2 black holes colliding! So it worked. EVEN if it's a cosmic Yahweh illusion, the techniques to trace back the waves was still correct!.

This universe we see up there according to the bible will vanish is a day, in an hour, in a moment. Like a blind that is rolled up. Boom. Gone. All your ideas about what it is are wrong.

Congats using bronze age myths as cosmology, ha. Every culture has these creation/destruction myths:
"According to Hindu vedic cosmology, there is no absolute start to time, as it is considered infinite and cyclic.[2] Similarly, the space and universe has neither start nor end, rather it is cyclical. The current universe is just the start of a present cycle preceded by an infinite number of universes and to be followed by another infinite number of universes.[3]

The dominant theme in Puranic Hindu cosmology, state Chapman and Driver, is of cycles and repetition. There are multiple universes, each takes birth from chaos, grows, decays and dies into chaos, to be reborn again. Further, there are different and parallel realities. Brahma's one day equals 4.32 billion years which is a Kalpa."

Jewish and Hindu cosmology are made up words by men.

There are scientific errors in your myths as well
Biblical scientific errors - RationalWiki[/QUOTE]

 

[dad]

There is no dispute among scholarship on those dates.

There can be no disputing the basis for the dates as belief based either. The issue is not who accepts beliefs.

If you have an argument against the historical dates of ancient cultures then make an argument and post sources.

Yes, all so called dates based on belief that nature was the same are invalid in the extreme. ALL dates used for ancient history therefore are invalid.

No. RIght now your "peers" are ...

My peers are bible believers.

Has nothing to do with "godless". Religious people don't deny dates of ancient myths?

I am not interested in religious people, sorry. What you need to do is support all dates you offer here in a science forum. You can't. That would require proving a same state past, and you cannot do it.

I don't deny the bible, it's a book of myths same as the Greek epics.

If you do not deny the bible, fine. You sure reject what it says.

I don't deny spirits, I'm still waiting for evidence.

Sounds like you deny them until you get some physical evidence? Ha.

By "actual history" you mean...

I mean actual records passed down, especially that can be verified by Scripture, or actual science.

Archeology and literary analysis follow many lines of evidence.

For dates, they follow belief only.

The Mesopotamian dynasties ranged thousands of years and through iconography,

Say what?? Show us how you date with this?

cross culture writings

Show us how you date, say, earliest Egypt using these?

, archeological excavations

Yeah, where you then use radioactive dating on what you dig up.

and many more fields of study

Empty blather.

No matter how much you troll scholarship, the world moves on and historical knowledge stands. Again, if you believe there may be discrepancies get a PhD, specialize in an area and go to work.

One does not need to study beliefs and get a title for doing so to be able to hold up those beliefs to the light of day.

William Dever, Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years:

"but I think it does mean what happened was rather more modest. And the biblical writers have enlarged the story."
"The stories of Solomon are larger than life. According to the stories, Solomon imported 100,000 workers from what is now Lebanon. Well, the whole population of Israel probably wasn't 100,000 in the 10th century. Everything Solomon touched turned to gold. In the minds of the biblical writers, of course, David and Solomon are ideal kings chosen by Yahweh. So they glorify them.

Now, archeology can't either prove or disprove the stories. But I think most archeologists today would argue that the United Monarchy was not much more than a kind of hill-country chiefdom. It was very small-scale."

Since they cannot prove it, and disrespect the Almighty in their baseless doubts, who cares?

Of course there is? Here is just ONE for people in communication with any supernatural entity.
I've written down a 10 digit number and a word. Have your spirit communicate this information to you. This experiment can be done with anyone who claims communication with Thor, Jesus, any dead people and other options.

How many hairs are on your head? God knows. You think if He doesn't tell you that He doesn't know? How many stars in the sky? He knows! He has names for all of them. You can be sure that the drab little names science issues are not the real names! How many days are in your life? God knows. How can mankind get free from the curse of death and bondage of sin? He sent His Son into the world to reveal that to us. He is not a God you can use for parlour tricks.
You think we could ignore the prophets and martyrs and Jesus and all the signs God gave man, and instead play mind games of guess that number??

In just the case of dark matter alone you are already wrong. That isn't how it happened.
Do you enjoy just being wrong constantly?

If dark matter was not invented because it was needed to explain observations, then explain to us where it comes from.

No, ESP, remote viewing, they claim to have a skill that can easily be tested. It's not much different with psychics. How many psychics mentioned a pandemic was coming last year? Zero. But during actual tests they also fail.

A late psychic once wrote that a severe pneumonia-like pandemic would happen in 2020. Now her 2008 Doomsday book has charted on Amazon.

The bible also predicts pandemics.

Any tech using quantum mechanics also related to creation cosmology because the theory is the universe was quantum in size. The microwave background would have a pattern if it were once quantum. That pattern was found. So th elaws of QM relate to creation.

If creation happened then we also would have a pattern. Even if QM applied for sure the same in all the universe, that does not mean time does or space.

Nope. I've presented several lines of evidence on light/gravity/space being universal

In each case it was shown to be fishbowl bound speculation.

Any answer that requires fishbowl as an answer is not an answer but a cop-out and attempt to stall and waste time (as I predicted).

The solar system and area are the fishbowl, and they can't be wiped out. Get a grip. Don't pull a Buzz Lightyear on us.

It doesn't require Photoshop. We can see many things in deep space with out eyes.

You see it only here, eyes or no eyes!

Probe is 16 light years so far. No change in time.

No. It is not even one light day out. Try to research before posting.

We can assume time is the same because the laws are universal,

No. Time is not a law.

have no reason to think they will change and visual evidence shows galaxies and superclusters and so on, all moving in a way consistent with how time should work.

Example of how they move to your theories?

Pulsars are sending us signals in exact even sequences and we recieve the light according to light speed.

The pulsar is of unknown size and distance. You only receive the signal here in OUR time! No matter what different times were involved in deep apace, you would only experience/observe it all in time here in the fishbowl!

Light speed and time velocity are connected in SR.

Relativity is only known to be relative to the fishbowl.

Your idea that the solar system is really a big movie screen created by Yahweh to fool us into thinking these is a large universe outside of the solar system needs evidence before it's even in the conversation.

He never said time was the same out there, or space. He never made models of the universe based on that as science has done. The guiding spirit behind origin sciences is not God!

No Genesis says lə-’ō-ṯōṯ - for signs, ū-lə-mō-w-‘ă-ḏîm, and seasons, ū-lə-yā-mîm ū-lə-yā-mîm, for days and years

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so


A day is time.
"
day, time, year

1. day (as opposed to night)
2. day (24 hour period)
   1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
   2. as a division of time 1b
3. a working day, a day's journey
4. days, lifetime (pl.)
5. time, period (general)

The days and years spoken about (time) were on earth! Just as He said the stars were for signs. That ,means so we could see the signs here.

The Israelites understood that the stars can be used to mark months/seasons. That's all that means? But there are many Christian scientists, in fact all cosmologists who are Christian assume God created reality but have no issues with modern cosmology?

How would we know the depths of what it means? Certainly the signs were from the stars and seen on earth. Just as the time/day/year on earth were related to stars! They are not there is some sort of cosmic accident or random thing as science suggests.

When we found the gravity waves we used the techniques to trace it back to it's source.
Oh, look, right where the waves were supposed to have been produced were 2 black holes colliding!

In other words there was activity in that area. Things moving and impacting the fishbowl. No one sees the waves anywhere but here, after they arrive. How would we know what ripples may exist in space before it gets here, and their nature? We see that our fishbowl area is rocked by influences out where the stars are! Since we have spacetime in the fishbowl, we see the gravity waves as ripples in OUR spacetime here. Now why assume that we also have spacetime out there as we know it here?

Not only that, but you do not know how far away that cluster of activity is away, or how big! What would it do to your maths if the so called black holes were only as big as grapefruits and less than 100 ly away!?

Congats using bronze age myths as cosmology, ha. Every culture has these creation/destruction myths:

Naturally fallen angels would have some similar stories to tell.

There are scientific errors in your myths as well
Biblical scientific errors - RationalWiki

I have seen and debated all these before. You could try, but be warned, you will not prevail.



][/QUOTE]

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Great so the bible does speak of a vast universe created by God. It doesn't really matter what translation we use either.

I don't use translations. The problem is not so much that words like "vast" do not convey the same thing in the Hebrew or Greek of the Bible (or other texts), but that in such languages words translated as "stars" become problematic, often extremely so. Vast is a relative term, and says nothing about whether or not the "vast" universe is really just your fishbowl.

Yet groups of stars were known, such as Pleiades.

Not as stars, not understood as large bodies far beyond the solar system.

No. It is in response to what science claims that the term fishbowl was needed. That is to show the limits of where man has been and knows about.

Ironically, the assumptions you challenge come directly from Christian theology:
“The orthodox view of the nature of the laws of physics contains a long list of tacitly assumed properties. The laws are regarded, for example, as immutable, eternal, infinitely precise mathematical relationships that transcend the physical universe... In addition, it is assumed that the physical world is affected by the laws, but the laws are completely impervious to what happens in the universe…It is not hard to discover where this picture of physical laws comes from: it is inherited directly from monotheism, which asserts that a rational being designed the universe according to a set of perfect laws . And the asymmetry between immutable laws and contingent states mirrors the asymmetry between God and nature: the universe depends utterly on God for its existence, whereas God’s existence does not depend on the universe…
…the orthodox concept of laws of physics derives directly from theology. It is remarkable that this view has remained largely unchallenged after 300 years of secular science…” (emphasis added)
Davies, P. (). Universe from bit. In P. Davies & N. H. Gregersen (Eds.) Information and the Nature of Reality: From Physics to Metaphysics (pp. 65-91). Cambridge University Press.
That the whole of the universe should operate according to universal, rational principles, properties and laws that do not change e.g., depending upon where in the universe one is happens to be part of the presuppositions modern physics inherited from monotheism and early modern Christian theology.

I would disagree. Just because we have some dilation in this area of the solar system does not mean that time itself is different here! All it means is that different conditions result in a stretching or slight change.

It has nothing to do with time dilation. In fact, the whole of special relativity and hence relativistic quantum theory can be and is constructed in a physical space that corresponds to an affine mathematical one. Put simply, all of that popular junk about time dilation and 4-vectors in Minkowski space is in reality a limiting case which requires and unvarying, background spacetime. It is still true that there are infinitely many three dimensional spaces unfolding in times within such a space, but in the more general relativistic physics spacetime itself, even within this solar system, cannot every nor anywhere be considered "fixed." The geometrical structure of physical spacetime is both dynamical and nonlinear, such that no point in spacetime can be considered to be any certain distance away from any other. This is why the metric takes on such an important role in general relativity while in special relativistic physics one simply gets some minus signs and the loss of positive definiteness.

The answer is that unless the whole universe shares identical space and time

That's not even true of this planet. It's why particles that enter our atmosphere can, from our reference frame, last longer than is possible given how fast they decay- from their space and time they experience a much shorter duration than from our own.

What should be inferred is that there is a creator, and that the inferences of godless science about origins are a joke.

The inference of a creator was what initially prompted the assumption that things like the properties of light held everywhere in the universe the same. Modern attempts to allow for things like varying constants (such as varying speeds of light) and differing laws of physics for different regions of the universe come in part from attempts to get away from the kind of physics inspired by theological assumptions and by Christian metaphysics.

 

[dad]

I don't use translations. The problem is not so much that words like "vast" do not convey the same thing in the Hebrew or Greek of the Bible (or other texts), but that in such languages words translated as "stars" become problematic, often extremely so. Vast is a relative term, and says nothing about whether or not the "vast" universe is really just your fishbowl.

Then we can use other clues provided. Such as how God lives beyond the place stars are. So we can know that beyond the vastness of space is something else. We can know that the stars were created by Him and that the heavens will also be rolled up and away one day by Him. We can know earth will be here watching it vanish away and that it was here before He made the stars. There are many things we can know. Most of them are diametrically opposed to the faith based models of so called science.

Not as stars, not understood as large bodies far beyond the solar system.

Since science knows no sizes or distances to stars who cares? They are wrong about it all.

Ironically, the assumptions you challenge come directly from Christian theology:
“The orthodox view of the nature of the laws of physics contains a long list of tacitly assumed properties. The laws are regarded, for example, as immutable, eternal, infinitely precise mathematical relationships that transcend the physical universe...

They made that up.

In addition, it is assumed that the physical world is affected by the laws, but the laws are completely impervious to what happens in the universe…It is not hard to discover where this picture of physical laws comes from: it is inherited directly from monotheism,

Who cares where made up screwy pictures came from?

which asserts that a rational being designed the universe according to a set of perfect laws . And the asymmetry between immutable laws and contingent states mirrors the asymmetry between God and nature: the universe depends utterly on God for its existence, whereas God’s existence does not depend on the universe…

No. Everything changed when Adam disobeyed. The world that was in Noah's day changed also. This world will change when the kingdom of God comes to earth. Not sure who made up that stuff about how nothing changes.

…the orthodox concept of laws of physics derives directly from ...

Who really cares where that came from science made up it's own.

It has nothing to do with time dilation. In fact, the whole of special relativity and hence relativistic quantum theory can be and is constructed in a physical space that corresponds to an affine mathematical one. Put simply, all of that popular junk about time dilation and 4-vectors in Minkowski space is in reality a limiting case which requires and unvarying, background spacetime.

Great, and we have that in the fishbowl. So?

It is still true that there are infinitely many three dimensional spaces unfolding in times within such a space, but in the more general relativistic physics spacetime itself, even within this solar system, cannot every nor anywhere be considered "fixed." The geometrical structure of physical spacetime is both dynamical and nonlinear, such that no point in spacetime can be considered to be any certain distance away from any other.

Irellevant whether some part of the fish tank is a little cooler or has more chemical or hets more light, etc. Basically it is all the fish tank.

This is why the metric takes on such an important role in general relativity while in special relativistic physics one simply gets some minus signs and the loss of positive definiteness.

Don't worry about metrics. The only metrics you need to be concerned with are those that exist here in the fishbowl.

That's not even true of this planet. It's why particles that enter our atmosphere can, from our reference frame, last longer than is possible given how fast they decay- from their space and time they experience a much shorter duration than from our own.

Minor fishbowl fluctuations are not relevant in the topic.

The inference of a creator was what initially prompted the assumption that things like the properties of light held everywhere in the universe the same.

They can dream all they like, but if they claim bible support you need chapter and verse.

Modern attempts to allow for things like varying constants (such as varying speeds of light) and differing laws of physics for different regions of the universe come in part from attempts to get away from the kind of physics inspired by theological assumptions and by Christian metaphysics.

The speed of light is not relevant either. Light moves at whatever speed the time that exists where the light is allows!

 

[joelr]

There can be no disputing the basis for the dates as belief based either. The issue is not who accepts beliefs.

Again, if you think scholarship is wrong on some dates present evidence. Mesopotamian myths are older then Israels myths.Noah's Ark is a rip-off of the Gilamesh flood myth.

Yes, all so called dates based on belief that nature was the same are invalid in the extreme. ALL dates used for ancient history therefore are invalid.

Oh ok cool. So you admit I'm right. You can insert crazy into any debate but without evidence it's just crazy. I'm not interested in disproving crazy.
That's funny, now you are using your "fishbowl" crank on things inside the "fishbowl". Ha.

My peers are bible believers.

No, the vast majority of Christians (bible believers) still understand scholarship is correct on ancient cultures and they also accept cosmology as being generally correct.

I would ask anyone here who shares your beliefs on the "fishbowl" and how the laws inside the fishbowl being different in the past to jump in.

I am not interested in religious people, sorry. What you need to do is support all dates you offer here in a science forum. You can't. That would require proving a same state past, and you cannot do it.

Sounds like someone is scared of debating history so they have to invent a magic solution. Whatever "same state past" means it has nothing to do with the history of civilization. Each culture wrote on stone about previous cultures. All cultures were heavily invested in writing history.
Does your "same state past" idea involve messing around with written histories and making the Mesopotamian civilizations look older than the Israelites? Ha.

If you do not deny the bible, fine. You sure reject what it says.

I don't reject what it says or deny the bible any more than I reject and deny Vedic scripture of Greek mythology.
They are made up stories about fake gods and teach people lessons about how to live in a society. Myths are important in cultures. In modern times we now know stories of gods and demi-gods are simply not real.

Sounds like you deny them until you get some physical evidence? Ha.

There is only physical evidence? There is no evidence for anything other than the physical realm. The evidence itself doesn't need be physical, have your god speak to everyone telepathically and give the same message? Go ahead, do that.

I mean actual records passed down, especially that can be verified by Scripture, or actual science.

Yes and we have "actual history", in writing that the Egyptians came before the Canaanites/Israelites. And before them we also have actual history of older cultures.

For dates, they follow belief only.

Not true at all. If a historical writing mentions a war, we know it came after the war.
There are many ways to understand dates of past cultures.

Say what?? Show us how you date with this?

The earliest Mesopotamian cultures only had iconography and pictograms but eventually had full cuneiform script.
Each reign - King Sargon of Akkad, Sumerians, Amorites, Babylons, Assyrians left long detailed histories in the Sumerian languages. Cuneiform was at first written in the Sumerian language. We know their laws, religions, languages, science.
The bottom layers show the earliest cities - Sumner, Akkad then Babylon is above those and so on.
Written records show the Persian empire invaded and took over then Alexander the Great, the Parthians and in more recent times it falls under Arab control, Islam and then the Ottoman Empire.
It's all recorded.

Show us how you date, say, earliest Egypt using these?

Egypt uses hieroglyphic writing and different languages and styles are used in different times. They also keep historical records with this writing and record each dynasty.

Yeah, where you then use radioactive dating on what you dig up.

There are several types of radiometric dating. Absolute dating does not use those as primary methods however. Coins with dates and historical writings do not need radio dating.

"In archaeology, absolute dating is usually based on the physical, chemical, and life properties of the materials of artifacts, buildings, or other items that have been modified by humans and by historical associations with materials with known dates (coins and written history). Techniques include tree rings in timbers, radiocarbon dating of wood or bones, and trapped-charge dating methods such as thermoluminescence dating of glazed ceramics.[3] Coins found in excavations may have their production date written on them, or there may be written records describing the coin and when it was used, allowing the site to be associated with a particular calendar year."

One does not need to study beliefs and get a title for doing so to be able to hold up those beliefs to the light of day.

Sure, I've seen people on the sidewalk with carboard signs about the "end of the world" or whatever "truth" they are experts in.
Scholarship on the other hand looks at evidence and has strict standards for adding or changing historical dates. Look into it. Or just keep being an uneducated troll.

Since they cannot prove it, and disrespect the Almighty in their baseless doubts, who cares?

People who are interested in what really happened in the past care.
Those of us who know the bible is a book of religious myths know that when archeology finds some of these "glorious" locations written about in scripture they will turn out to be much more small-scale. It's just more confirmation that it's a myth.

Even if there was a God, humans doing their best work and examining evidence as they see it is an honest endeavor. Does it not say to be honest in scripture? If god felt archeologists finding a small city would "disrespect" him then he could have made it a gigantic city.
Even more proof your religion is a cult. Showing anger and attitude at an archeologist simply explaining what he finds? And the doubts are not "baseless", they did the work, found the site. it's "small scale". Get over it.

How many hairs are on your head? God knows. You think if He doesn't tell you that He doesn't know? How many stars in the sky? He knows! He has names for all of them. You can be sure that the drab little names science issues are not the real names! How many days are in your life? God knows. How can mankind get free from the curse of death and bondage of sin? He sent His Son into the world to reveal that to us.

Yep the earlier savior gods also were:
They are all “savior gods
usually the “son” of a supreme God
They all undergo a “passion”
That passion is often, but not always, a death (followed by a resurrection and triumph).
By which “passion” (of whatever kind) they obtain victory over death.
Which victory they then share with their followers (typically through baptism and communion).
They also all have stories about them set in human history on earth.

They are nice myths.Whatever.

 

[joelr]

He is not a God you can use for parlour tricks.

Ahh, I see this often, when simple ways of demonstrating proof are presented religious folks go right to this.
It would not actually be a parlor trick if god gave the message to the entire world at once. Jesus showed up for Paul, and there are many stories of tricks and proofs of god power all throughout scripture. All over the place. But suddenly, now when we can verify that it's actually real and not just a bunch of stories...nothing.
So that line of reasoning is moot.

You think we could ignore the prophets and martyrs and Jesus and all the signs God gave man, and instead play mind games of guess that number??

Prophets - there are 1000's of prophets you also ignore from every other religion.
But yes, "prophets" never say anything extraordinary (like write down 1000 digits of pi) they just happen to be communicating a god message. As if god cannot put the message in everyones consciousness?

Martyrs - There are still people who die for religions other than yours today? Does that make them correct? Where are the stories of Christian martyrdom from? The gospels? Those are made-up stories? Yes Rome did persecute Christians for a time. That sucked.
After 380 they also persecuted Mithrianism worshippers. Neither are true.

A late psychic once wrote that a severe pneumonia-like pandemic would happen in 2020. Now her 2008 Doomsday book has charted on Amazon.

"While alive, Browne had appeared on television shows like Larry King Live and the Montel Williams Show. Several of her predictions, specifically those related to missing children, turned out to be false, and followers accused her of causing additional unnecessary grief for their families. She also incorrectly predicted she would die at the age of 88, but she was 77 at her time of death."

Now some are even pointing to her eery prediction of the 2020 respiratory illness as a rip-off from Dean Koontz' 1981 thriller "The Eyes of Darkness," where Koontz invented a biological weapon that would be developed in the Chinese city of Wuhan, where the real-life new coronavirus began.

like I said random chance.

The bible also predicts pandemics.

Did you seriously just say that? Yes it predicts pandemics because PANDEMICS HAPPEN?!?
An actual prediction would say in 2020 a virus will come out of a Chinese lab, be called coronavirus and have a mortality rate around 3-5%.
Then it would be interesting but still not proof that the author actually had any real psychic power. You need repeatable results.

Does the bible also predict war too! Wow so impressive!

If creation happened then we also would have a pattern. Even if QM applied for sure the same in all the universe, that does not mean time does or space.

Spacetime is part of quantum mechanics.

In each case it was shown to be fishbowl bound speculation.

I The solar system and area are the fishbowl, and they can't be wiped out. Get a grip. Don't pull a Buzz Lightyear on us.

You see it only here, eyes or no eyes!

Nope, turtles/fishbowl. Provide evidence or continue taking the loss.

No. It is not even one light day out. Try to research before posting.

I said 16 light hrs, meaning coming up on a light day.

No. Time is not a law.

Why do you keep saying this? Time follows laws. If EM waves are moving at light speed then time will work as we expect it to.
The speed of light is the speed of causality:
"The Universe DNGAF about your rules, or your light. The speed limit that everything in the Universe must adhere to - the universal constant - is about something much deeper. As Matt explains, the speed of light should really be called the speed of causality."
This episode of Space Time explains how light is the speed of causality:

Example of how they move to your theories?

18:10
comparing super computer simulations of general relativity and actual observations of superclusters.

There are tons of things like this to find. Supercomputers with GR and QM put in will produce a universe exactly like we observe.

The pulsar is of unknown size and distance. You only receive the signal here in OUR time! No matter what different times were involved in deep apace, you would only experience/observe it all in time here in the fishbowl!

No because the light travels to us a light speed so we know it's distance.

Relativity is only known to be relative to the fishbowl.

Stars would not form, galaxies would not form, superclusters would not form without GR.
You already asked this and I gave the same answer.
You have no further answer. What you then did is say "well since it's deep space maybe it's a different force.....?
Except you provide no evidence of a different force or a reason why it would appear to be GR but it's actually an illusion. Nothing. You just want to continue in this same circle.
I'm sorry you are bored, have no hobbies, friends or life and want to go in circles but I am erasing all further references to fishbowl/turtles.

He never said time was the same out there, or space. He never made models of the universe based on that as science has done. The guiding spirit behind origin sciences is not God!

But he didn't say it was different out there either?
The guiding spirit behind any science is not Zues, Thor, Odin, Krishna, Yahweh, Mithras or even Superman. It's evidence and theories.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so
A day is time.
"
day, time, year

1. day (as opposed to night)
2. day (24 hour period)
   1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
   2. as a division of time 1b
3. a working day, a day's journey
4. days, lifetime (pl.)
5. time, period (general)

The days and years spoken about (time) were on earth! Just as He said the stars were for signs. That ,means so we could see the signs here.

Even if I believed the mythology that you believed, I see no mention of deep space not having time? He said "days and years" because they had their days and years HERE ON EARTH. The stars show seasons ON EARTH. There is no reference to stars not being in time. Now we actually know our local sun is a star and requires all the laws to operate- GR, EM radiation. There is no reason to believe all the stars were not created similar. The evidence in that passage is ZERO to believe your fishbowl idea. So it's not even supported in scripture.

How would we know the depths of what it means? Certainly the signs were from the stars and seen on earth. Just as the time/day/year on earth were related to stars! They are not there is some sort of cosmic accident or random thing as science suggests.

Wow, talk about pure nonsense, empty wu-wu blather and such....?

In other words there was activity in that area. Things moving and impacting the fishbowl. No one sees the waves anywhere but here, after they arrive. How would we know what ripples may exist in space before it gets here, and their nature? We see that our fishbowl area is rocked by influences out where the stars are! Since we have spacetime in the fishbowl, we see the gravity waves as ripples in OUR spacetime here. Now why assume that we also have spacetime out there as we know it here?

Because we have evidence. We have the ripples, we trace them back and have a source and it worked out. More examples are needed and that's what science does, it continues to look for new evidence.

Naturally fallen angels would have some similar stories to tell.

Angels only tell stories in myths because they are not real.

I have seen and debated all these before. You could try, but be warned, you will not prevail.

I already prevailed. You couldn't answer the few I posted.You still haven't explained the firmament and the ridiculous biblical cosmology?

"The Flood narrative relies on this same ancient understanding of the world. As the “firmament” (a solid dome in the sky which holds the cosmic ocean in place) collapses and the “fountains of the deep” explode upward, the Earth experiences a cataclysmic return to the watery chaos described in Genesis 1:2. To deal with the chaos of sin, God returns the Earth to chaos, and then restores order with a “restart” and renewal of creation."

 

[dad]

Again, if you think scholarship is wrong on some dates present evidence. Mesopotamian myths are older then Israels myths.Noah's Ark is a rip-off of the Gilamesh flood myth.

The evidence is that you (or any scholar or anyone else) cannot support or defend the dates they use.

No, the vast majority of Christians (bible believers) still understand scholarship is correct on ancient cultures and they also accept cosmology as being generally correct.

False. That would be delusion not understanding.

I would ask anyone here who shares your beliefs on the "fishbowl" and how the laws inside the fishbowl being different in the past to jump in.

All you need to do is show that time exists outside the solar system and area the same as it does in it.

Sounds like someone is scared of debating history so they have to invent a magic solution. Whatever "same state past" means it has nothing to do with the history of civilization.

Since your dates are based on a same nature in the past it has everything to do with it.

Each culture wrote on stone about previous cultures. All cultures were heavily invested in writing history.

Maybe refresh our memory here and show us how the earliest Egyptians wrote on stone about the civilizations before them!?

I don't reject what it says or deny the bible any more than I reject and deny Vedic scripture of Greek mythology.

You may accept that the bible says Jesus rose again and died to save us, but you do not believe it.

There is only physical evidence? There is no evidence for anything other than the physical realm.

Says who? Billions of people over history would disagree.

The evidence itself doesn't need be physical, have your god speak to everyone telepathically and give the same message? Go ahead, do that.

He spoke to the apostles who spoke to us.

Yes and we have "actual history", in writing that the Egyptians came before the Canaanites/Israelites. And before them we also have actual history of older cultures.

Before Egypt? Expound.

Not true at all. If a historical writing mentions a war, we know it came after the war.
There are many ways to understand dates of past cultures.

Then show us any date over 5000 years and how you got it. Should be easy.

The earliest Mesopotamian cultures only had iconography and pictograms but eventually had full cuneiform script.
Each reign - King Sargon of Akkad, Sumerians, Amorites, Babylons, Assyrians left long detailed histories in the Sumerian languages. Cuneiform was at first written in the Sumerian language. We know their laws, religions, languages, science.

So what? Laws do not tell us dates.

The bottom layers show the earliest cities - Sumner, Akkad then Babylon is above those and so on.

So what? Of course life goes on, that is not dates.

Written records show the Persian empire invaded and took over then Alexander the Great, the Parthians and in more recent times it falls under Arab control, Islam and then the Ottoman Empire.
It's all recorded.

Nothing to do with old ages.

Egypt uses hieroglyphic writing and different languages and styles are used in different times. They also keep historical records with this writing and record each dynasty.

Source? Surely you would not offer the king lists?

There are several types of radiometric dating. Absolute dating does not use those as primary methods however. Coins with dates and historical writings do not need radio dating.

ALL radioactive decay derived dates assume a same nature in the past.

"In archaeology, absolute dating is usually based on the physical, chemical, and life properties of the materials of artifacts, buildings, or other items that have been modified by humans and by historical associations with materials with known dates (coins and written history). Techniques include tree rings in timbers,

Trees are recorded to have grown in weeks in the different past nature. As I mentioned your so called dates all involve the belief nature was the same.

radiocarbon dating of wood or bones, and trapped-charge dating methods such as thermoluminescence dating of glazed ceramics.[3]

As above all same nature in the past based methods.

Coins found in excavations may have their production date written on them,

No coin has pre-flood dates, so irrelevant.

or there may be written records describing the coin and when it was used, allowing the site to be associated with a particular calendar year."

Name any coin from before the days of Noah? (or 5000 years ago)

Scholarship on the other hand looks at evidence and has strict standards for adding or changing historical dates. Look into it. Or just keep being an uneducated troll.

They are mis-educated bafoons who use only the same nature in the past belief for the dates. Overrated know nothings.

Those of us who know the bible is a book of religious myths know that when archeology finds some of these "glorious" locations written about in scripture they will turn out to be much more small-scale. It's just more confirmation that it's a myth.

If you knew what was what you might talk.

Even if there was a God, humans doing their best work and examining evidence as they see it is an honest endeavor. Does it not say to be honest in scripture? If god felt archeologists finding a small city would "disrespect" him then he could have made it a gigantic city.

Sour grapes. Just because God made Solomon rich and he had international connections for lots of labour does not mean what you think.

Even more proof your religion is a cult. Showing anger and attitude at an archeologist simply explaining what he finds?

A lot of what we find depends on what we were looking for. They can find whatever they like, but when they use belief based phony dates they should be disrespected.

And the doubts are not "baseless", they did the work, found the site. it's "small scale". Get over it.

That proves...what?

Yep the earlier savior gods also were:
They are all “savior gods
usually the “son” of a supreme God
They all undergo a “passion”
That passion is often, but not always, a death (followed by a resurrection and triumph).
By which “passion” (of whatever kind) they obtain victory over death.
Which victory they then share with their followers (typically through baptism and communion).
They also all have stories about them set in human history on earth.

They are nice myths.Whatever.

Christians can try the spirits to see if they are of God.