Maybe people should know that there is a difference between what the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses teach publically and what they tell the elders who "take care" of the so-called God's people.
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Class action status sought for JW sex abuse cases
- Thread starter 9-10ths_Penguin
- Start date
I do not know for certain, but I trust this is a website for the plain truth.
Facts about JW.org, the Watchtower, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Truth
What bothers me the most about all this is that the JWs are very secretive when it comes to what happens between the elders and others of the flock. Even if an individual is proven beyond a shadow of the doubt to have mishandled a child, the rest of the Jehovah's Witnesses will not know about it. So you have a "brother" going free in the congregation which advertises that it is a "clean organization".
Can anyone else see the problem with that?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi Savage....
I hate long posts so I'll do my best.....
Last night, for the first time in forty years since we buried our son who had hydrocephalus, clubbed feet, spina bifida, cleft palate and goodness only knows what else, I discovered that the drug Epilim which my wife was prescribed during her pregnancy (during the 70's) can and does cause ALL of those disabilities in pregnancies.
Last night I learned that 100 more recent and similar cases were to be tried in a test case against the pharmeceutical company, paid for by British Legal Aid, but a very short time before the trial the British Government withdrew the funding and stood down the Lawyers who were making the claim.
I have learned all this within twenty four hours. My feelings are working at several different levels about this, for instance just after Joe's funeral my wife suffered a most dreadful psuedo-seizure and smashed her skull in three places, all this probably caused by the loss, stress, trauma and grief.
Our Government decided to close down this case, possibly frightened by uncountable further claims causing unbelievably high billions in extended costs, who knows?
You see Savage, Governments can do that, just shut a thing out, down and finished.
And here we all are debating about ruining a religion's name around the World and possibly crushing it financially ........ where bigger organisations can shake a few hands and crush cases dead before breakfast time.
Savage, I wish the Watchtower well, and although some JWs may have been very bad I hope that Justice will point claimants at those people, and not the organisation which they let down so badly. But the perpetrators won't have the funds that the claimants are seeking, nor the media attention. Yeah..... right.
This is just poo throwing at this time, compared with the horrendous corruption that I see all around.
Good luck and best wishes to the WatchTower.
I know you aren't a current JW, but IIRC you used to be one, right?
I find the apparent lack of certainty by the members - current and former - about the group's anti-abuse policies to be flabbergasting.
AFAIK, all JWs are expected to do significant amounts of volunteer work, often with children. For any responsiblr organization that regularly has volunteers working with kids, I would expect that:
- every volunteer and person who receives services would be able to easily find their anti-abuse/child protection policy.
- every volunteer working with kids would go through a criminal background check.
- every volunteer would be provided with clear details of their obligations and expectations under the policy.
For instance, in the organization I volunteer with, I have to do a background check every two years and sign a form acknowledging the policy every year, and I know that I'm required to avoid being alone with a child and that I have to immediately report any abuse claims to police.
Other organizations may have somewhat different requirements to their policy, but if the organization is doing the right thing, the average volunteer should be able to list these sorts of details off the top of their head. If they can't - if they don't know their obligations or if the organization even has an official policy - something is very, very wrong.
I am sorry for your loss. Could you provide the source of your information regarding Epilim causing hydrocephalus? Thanks.Hi Savage....
I hate long posts so I'll do my best.....
Last night, for the first time in forty years since we buried our son who had hydrocephalus, clubbed feet, spina bifida, cleft palate and goodness only knows what else, I discovered that the drug Epilim which my wife was prescribed during her pregnancy (during the 70's) can and does cause ALL of those disabilities in pregnancies.
Last night I learned that 100 more recent and similar cases were to be tried in a test case against the pharmeceutical company, paid for by British Legal Aid, but a very short time before the trial the British Government withdrew the funding and stood down the Lawyers who were making the claim.
I have learned all this within twenty four hours. My feelings are working at several different levels about this, for instance just after Joe's funeral my wife suffered a most dreadful psuedo-seizure and smashed her skull in three places, all this probably caused by the loss, stress, trauma and grief.
Our Government decided to close down this case, possibly frightened by uncountable further claims causing unbelievably high billions in extended costs, who knows?
You see Savage, Governments can do that, just shut a thing out, down and finished.
And here we all are debating about ruining a religion's name around the World and possibly crushing it financially ........ where bigger organisations can shake a few hands and crush cases dead before breakfast time.
Savage, I wish the Watchtower well, and although some JWs may have been very bad I hope that Justice will point claimants at those people, and not the organisation which they let down so badly. But the perpetrators won't have the funds that the claimants are seeking, nor the media attention. Yeah..... right.
This is just poo throwing at this time, compared with the horrendous corruption that I see all around.
Good luck and best wishes to the WatchTower.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi....
The News at Ten on UK BBC channel 231 ran the story on Epilim lasat evening, so I can't give you a source unless you have some telly review feature.
This morning I accessed google and 'in-turn' entered Epilim Spina Bifida, Epilim Club-foot etc etc and all of the conditions were featured as high risks for pregnant women users.
Epilim is still a brilliant medication for so many illnesses and conditions..... it only seems to be deadly where pregnancy is involved.
I never had any idea, nor associated Joe's many disabilities with Epilim, until last night. Obviously I was trying to show how huge powerful organisations can crush some embarrassing processes...... it's just the example staring straight at me, just now.
And thankyou for your kind words.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Here is one, Sayak....... an example of hydrocephalus being caused by epilim use during pregnancy.
General Practice for Lawyers - Google Books Result
isbn:1843143607 - Google Search
Ineson - 1996 - Law
Whilst she was carrying her son she was prescribed the anticonvulsant 'Epilim' (
sodium valproate). He suffers with hydrocephalus, spina bifida and cerebral ...
...1996!...... and I didn't know 'til last night. I could kick myself.
I was a JW for twenty years. I never imagined that a JW could do such things as some JWs do. I remember once when my child was very young worrying about trusting a non-witness who was attending meetings who had taken my son out for some air. I did not have the same fear about the witnesses. It is a conditioning from all the "spiritual food" the governing body dishes out. So, I trusted Jehovah's Witnesses but not people who were not JWs. I am telling you! The governing body leads the people to believe that EVERYTHING that is not the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is of the devil. If a parent thinks that she or he should go to the police, it is the DEVIL who they are asking for help from. If the parents do go to the worldly authorities for help, then just because of that they are sometimes ostracized. It has happened to some people.
Nobody is perfect. I get it! But, if the JWs can use scripture to decide some things then why not all their decisions, like, you must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect? Matthew 5:48
That is what is written also. How can the JWs say they alone are the true religion when they are NOT perfect about child protection?
The problem.
Jehovah's Witnesses believe they alone are the true religion and that Jehovah will protect it.
They believe their organization alone is backed by and led by The Holy Spirit.
If a Jehovah's Witness sins his or her privileges may be revoked.
So, if a person has privileges it has to follow that he is approved for such by The Holy Spirit.
By his being approved should mean definitively that he would never ever do anything remotely bad to anyone on purpose and ESPECIALLY a young one.
The governing body will not listen to reason.
Therefore, I think that it can be called righteous to hit them in the money.
Jehovah's Witnesses believe they alone are the true religion and that Jehovah will protect it.
They believe their organization alone is backed by and led by The Holy Spirit.
If a Jehovah's Witness sins his or her privileges may be revoked.
So, if a person has privileges it has to follow that he is approved for such by The Holy Spirit.
By his being approved should mean definitively that he would never ever do anything remotely bad to anyone on purpose and ESPECIALLY a young one.
The governing body will not listen to reason.
Therefore, I think that it can be called righteous to hit them in the money.
Another reason why I think it is alright to hit them in the money is that they believe if Jehovah provides the means to keep going the way they will, they will.
Guess what? It isn't Jehovah who provides the money. If a legal action would drain them, that just might be the will of Jehovah.
Guess what? It isn't Jehovah who provides the money. If a legal action would drain them, that just might be the will of Jehovah.
Such a sad and frightening revelation OB. How do you process such information without wanting to scream at those greedy pharmaceutical companies for releasing their drugs without proper testing. The 1970's was well after the thalidomide disaster, which was exposed in 1961 by an Australian doctor, so there was no excuse.
I am so sorry for the trauma this must be causing you all these years later.
There has been so much unnecessary suffering at the hands of those who want to make their quick fortunes at the expense of others.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
You see? I mentioned this earlier.......
Sexual abuse was occuring in mostly every part, mostly everywhere. The lists of politicians, film stars, singers, celebrities etc etc that have been convicted or shamed is huge.
Corruption in the Metroplitan Police (and most other forces) was HUGE and held in the grip of secret societies such as Freemasonry.
I wouldn't know about Canadian police forces though.
But today a few folks, possibly with an agenda, can't wait for Courts to make convictions...... can they?
No, they can't wait. Had our police departments properly investigated child abuse allegations, they wouldn't now have to wait for judgments.
However, sexual abuse that occurs by politicians, film stars, singers, celebrities, ETC AND/OR WHATEVER, does NOT excuse NOR diminish sexual abuse that occurs in churches.
There is no moral equivalency here.
.
False child abuse allegations are extremely rare, in the 1 -2 % range. The idea that 8 or 9 year olds are turning in church elders or their dads in order to cash in on punitive damages are probably even rarer.
Well I expect “mass perjury” would certainly be the claim of child abuse perpetrators, those accused of child abuse, those on sexual abuse registries, and advocates for pedophilia like the North American Man Boy Association. I just haven’t seen credible data to back it up.
If you have sources claiming our court systems are being flooded with false claims of child sexual abuse, let us know, preferably not from any of the sources listed above.
The fact is, Old Badger, child sexual abuse is a massively under-reported, not over-reported problem. I’m not sure what you’re basing your assertion on but I think we can throw such assertions safely out the window.
When someone is drowning you throw them a rope. You don’t tell the victim “Wait a second; I need to call the police”. The immediate danger to the child, other children and even yourself must be considered first.
You're reading my post incorrectly.
When I stated police and churches should be criticized for failing to investigate child abuse allegations, I was not suggesting that churches run out and form their own police force. I was specifically responding to your prior appeal to moral equivalency, which was this:
Don't forget that Police Forces were turning away such allegations even 15 years ago.
Have you run a thread about that?
Have you run a thread about that?
I made it clear that the police should not have done that. I also made it clear the churches should not have done that either. When a child walks in and confides that she or he has been sexually abused, you do not “turn away such allegations.”
The churches investigation should be focused immediately on the danger to the child and other parishioners. It certainly should not involve a confrontation between her and the accused and it certainly should not be accompanied by a reluctance to report it to the police.
You also made this amazing assertion:
Unless you are a Police Officer I reckon that I have detained more paedophiles than you over the years, and I have listened to many more accusations that were quite simply malicious adult lies and/or sad minor's fibs.
This is part and parcel of the problem we are experiencing now. The pervasive attitude at that time, as you correctly pointed out, was one of “turning away” and dismissal of sexual abuse allegations as “…malicious adult lies and/or sad minor’s fibs.”
So perhaps one can understand why police officers turned away our children back then. Perhaps it was a cultural and education thing…a disbelief that some guy with a ready smile could bang his daughter, or an eagerness to believe she was just mad about the spanking and wanted to get out of a little homework.
But even if this were somehow excusable way back then (and I don't believe it was, especially with a police force specifically charged to protect the public) it certainly is not excusable now. The idea of any child today seeking help from a molester who is summarily turned away as a sad “fib” is one I find morally objectionable and, for the police, legally actionable.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Oh my goodness! Jehovah Witnesses ARE conducting private investigations Old Badger, and extremely poor ones at that. They are totally untrained to do so. Didn’t you even peruse the material I sourced?
Now you're talking Old Badger because that's exactly what happened. Except it was children who brought claims against the Watchtower. One child even brought a claim against them because the Watchtower knew the person her mother was marrying (whom she met through a bible study and knock on the door) was a child molester but failed to inform her or her mother.
Unfortunately all the perfectly foreseeable and inevitable abuse occurred inside their home, not during religious activities. Their claim was denied and they were ordered to repay the Watchtower's legal costs.
YES, excellent observation! You’re absolutely right!! You’re singing to the choir here!!!
So why are they conducting “judicial investigations” where the child is asked to confront her abuser and why the refusal to report child abuse to police only if they’re legally required to do so?
LOL, you're joking, right? This is a religious debate forum so of course we're going to hold a religion high and shake it about. Especially one that claims to be the only "true" religion.
If this were a sports club debate forum we could do that with the only "true" sports club, but this ain't that kind of forum.
A major credit agency, Equifax*, was recently hacked. The Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating along with the FBI. A class action lawsuit is in the works.
No one, not even Jehovah Witnesses, are waiting for a legal decision or judgement to protect their credit, so I’m at a loss why we should wait for a legal decision or judgement to protect our children.
You'd really have to explain the rationale behind that one.
*Edited
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Thanks for the link links. I found this one, which is more recentHi....
The News at Ten on UK BBC channel 231 ran the story on Epilim lasat evening, so I can't give you a source unless you have some telly review feature.
This morning I accessed google and 'in-turn' entered Epilim Spina Bifida, Epilim Club-foot etc etc and all of the conditions were featured as high risks for pregnant women users.
Epilim is still a brilliant medication for so many illnesses and conditions..... it only seems to be deadly where pregnancy is involved.
I never had any idea, nor associated Joe's many disabilities with Epilim, until last night. Obviously I was trying to show how huge powerful organisations can crush some embarrassing processes...... it's just the example staring straight at me, just now.
And thankyou for your kind words.
Epilepsy drug 'responsible for up to 4,100 severe birth defects' in France
There is a possibility that the class action lawsuit may be revived now that more studies have confirmed the link. While nothing can bring back your child, I would advise to consult a lawyer to see what action can be taken against the drug company.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately there is. I'm going to show a video which is very disturbing. Not only because it shows a convicted pedophile going door to door, and not only because he denies, time and time again, the allegation he is a pedophile.
No what's even more disturbing is the actions of one of the fellow Witnesses...
HE PHYSICALLY STOPS HIS EARS
It's exactly what is happening here. Jehovah Witnesses don't want to hear charges about child abuse. It's better for the person to be quiet, not make noise, keep it to themselves, ignore the child making an allegation and question the motivations of anyone trying to ring an alarm bell rather than bring "reproach" upon the Organization.
Look, I would like to say good things about the Organization too. If they would apologize and repent, and bring their reporting standards up to commonly accepted levels, I wouldn't have jack to say to them. But that would mean they are like every other church who sins, and the Watchtower, according to the Watchtower, is not like every other church. They are God's sole approved "channel" on earth, and when you've heard that enough times, you don't have time to hear anything else. They have pedophiles. They send them out into the community, and simply ignoring them and pretending they aren't there is simply wrong, wrong, wrong. It's defending the indefensible.
Here's the full video:
I'm glad this person has now volunteered NOT to go out on field service again, but there are other pedophiles out there that haven't given that assurance. And given the response I see here, the only thing I can ask is "What could possibly go wrong?"
This video triggered an investigation by a television station. Just so there is no doubt that it is a convicted child molester in the video, you can watch it here. It's a little longer but much more detailed:
JW's are such terrible criminals!
look at them out there shooting people and stealing from them!...blowing themselves up and carrying out terrorist acts! I don't know how the world can ever put up with them!
Good grief! That is the greatest load of set up clap trap I have ever seen.
The judgments with which you judge others will come back to you. We have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of.
We also forgive people who try hard to correct their past mistakes. Harassing someone who is trying to live a Christian life after a bad past is not condemned by God or us. Try reading about Manasseh. Then put yourself under the same cross-examination. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".
Good grief! That is the greatest load of set up clap trap I have ever seen.
The judgments with which you judge others will come back to you. We have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of.
We also forgive people who try hard to correct their past mistakes. Harassing someone who is trying to live a Christian life after a bad past is not condemned by God or us. Try reading about Manasseh. Then put yourself under the same cross-examination. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Such a sad and frightening revelation OB. How do you process such information without wanting to scream at those greedy pharmaceutical companies for releasing their drugs without proper testing. The 1970's was well after the thalidomide disaster, which was exposed in 1961 by an Australian doctor, so there was no excuse.
I am so sorry for the trauma this must be causing you all these years later.
Hello again, Deeje.....
I must have been thick. The information is cascading in now because I'm looking for it, and remembering.
My wife was ripped up by it all.... thought it was something wrong with her. I used to assure her that it must have been me and my seed that caused it all.
The day of the birth a very formidable, mature, tweed-suited lady arrived at the hospital. She had come to tell us that 'baby' could not survive and that even if 'baby' did then his life would have no value. She told us quite clearly that in 'these cases' where nurses only feed babies on demand that they will not ask for food. She told us that this was 'most certainly' the right thing for 'baby'. We believed her absolutely. Joe lasted about a month. I reckon that lady and many others did nothing else all week long, but receive details of the births for that day.... etc....
I'm now discovering books that were written about all this twenty years ago, twenty years after our experiences. I must have been so thick.
But look at the timing. I discover that thousands of children and mothers suffered like this, and the cases were suppressed, contained, and the later, as late as this week, crushed.
But I can tell you one thing. The Epilim attention will be TINY as compared with a small religion being battered and blamed for the conduct of a very very few very bad people.
I must have been so thick.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Sayak, info is now crashing in, and I'm projecting this into some horrific extensions.
One of my grandsons is now 21. He was born with clubbed foot. He has 'done' remarkeably well and because of our laws about disability protection he actually drives an ambulance. Brave kid.
Our son who died in 76' had club feet as well as all the other disabilities. I now wonder whether my wife's genes might have been disabled in some way through all this, affecting her following generations? Am I seeing too much into all this?
I won't post about this again because it's off topic, but this is just a bad time for me and I can't think of anything else.
I apologise to the OP for these posts, I need to leave this thread after a couple more replies to others. I'm sorry.
No worries. Take care. Courage and love for all your family.