Class action status sought for JW sex abuse cases

[oldbadger]

Oh my goodness!

Which part of my sign off did you not understand?

Now you're talking Old Badger because that's exactly what happened. Except it was children who brought claims against the Watchtower.

Your mindset is playing tricks with you. I was referring to cases that could be brought for defamation, and over reactions from social services/child care groups where such reports were unfounded.
I think your locked into an agenda bias so deep as to affect your viewpoint?

Look, I can't continue for other reasons, so I'll leave you to get on with your written vendetta, because that's exactly what I think it is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We also forgive people who try hard to correct their past mistakes. Harassing someone who is trying to live a Christian life after a bad past is not condemned by God or us. Try reading about Manasseh. Then put yourself under the same cross-examination. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".

So is the JW leadership "working hard to correct their past mistakes"?

I'm open to hearing about what the JWs are now doing to address the issue of child abuse among their members and leadership.

So... what are they doing? Please be specific.

 

[Oeste]

Your mindset is playing tricks with you. I was referring to cases that could be brought for defamation, and over reactions from social services/child care groups where such reports were unfounded.

And I was referring to case brought against the Watchtower that was eventually dismissed and the child's parents were ordered to pay restitution to the Watchtower. What part of my response didn't you comprehend or understand???

I think your locked into an agenda bias so deep as to affect your viewpoint?

When it comes to the protection of children and special needs persons for pedophiles then yes, deep bias and guilty as charged.

Look, I can't continue for other reasons, so I'll leave you to get on with your written vendetta, because that's exactly what I think it is.

Even though we disagree I understand this is a difficult time and wish you and your family the best. I'm really trying to understand the other side of the argument here and I think yours was an expressive voice towards that end. We'll have other times we can talk.

Take care.

 

[Oeste]

="Deeje, post: 5331929, member: 18814"]JW's are such terrible criminals!

look at them out there shooting people and stealing from them!...blowing themselves up and carrying out terrorist acts! I don't know how the world can ever put up with them!

Good grief! That is the greatest load of set up clap trap I have ever seen.

“That” sure was. Thank you for bringing "that" to everyone’s attention.

But we’re not talking about "that"... shooting people, stealing from them, blowing them up or committing terrorist acts. We’re talking about pedophiles and protecting our children, and we can’t afford to place stoppers on our ears when it comes to sexual predators and child abuse allegations.

The judgments with which you judge others will come back to you. We have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of.

Then why respond so defensively? No one here is asking you to hide or be ashamed. It’s not only what you believe but why you believe it that interests me, and I can’t talk with you if you start walking away or stopping your ears.

Besides, if adult Witnesses are unable to talk freely about sexual abuse anonymously on a public bulletin board, and can’t hear about it without literally stopping their ears when canvassing door to door, what chance does some kid have when she reports abuse in a Kingdom Hall? If it’s anything like I’ve seen on this thread, it wouldn’t be much and the opportunity for change in your Organization is reduced that much more.

I’m asking the Watchtower to do the exact opposite of run and hide. I’m asking them to stop pretending predators don't exist among the brethren (where are your protocols?) and don’t be ashamed to let the public know if one might soon be knocking on their door. At the very least, it seems to me the elders could give their local Police a heads up if they intend to send a convicted child molester knocking door to door. If they don't want to do this then they should be barred from field ministry.

We also forgive people who try hard to correct their past mistakes. Harassing someone who is trying to live a Christian life after a bad past is not condemned by God or us. Try reading about Manasseh. Then put yourself under the same cross-examination. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".

Giving someone a second chance is fine Deeje, but giving a pedophile a second chance to molest unprotected children is not. They must deal with the consequences of their sin just we deal with the consequences of our own.

As I see it, there are two ways a church can deal with child molesters:

1. If your Organization cures child molesters:

If you truly believe Kingdom Halls are curing child molesters of their molestation, then you need to show this. Publish pictures of repentant child molesters going door to door or perhaps leading a home bible study with kids in the background. Tell the child molesters of the world “This could be you!” if they would simply “Get out of Babylon the Great” and get baptized into the Organization. This should be accompanied by your well vetted, comprehensive, well documented, statistically laden peer reviewed study that shows the recidivism rate for child molesters who walk into a Kingdom Hall and repent is zero.​

Believe me, if your Organization can actually do this the entire world will rejoice and I would rejoice also. I would shout it from my rooftop if it were safe for me to do. Absolutely no one would be alarmed at the prospect of convicted child molesters knocking on their door, trusted Awake! magazine in hand.​

2. If your Organization does not cure, occasionally cures or only temporarily cures child molesters:

Anything less than a total cure of pedophilia is unacceptable and requires protection of the church, its congregants, and the community at large. As such, this requires the adoption of, at the very least, minimally accepted and common sense standards for protection of children and those with special needs. These standards, some of which have been adopted by child welfare advocates and agencies are freely available for the asking. In many instances these agencies will work with your church to develop standards free of charge.​

You really need to find where your Organization fits on the chart.

 

[Oeste]

How do other churches handle child molestation? ​

Here are some salient points from a Sexual Abuse Policy at the Trinity Baptist Church:

"Those who have been convicted of either sexual or physical abuse can be forgiven for, and cleansed of their sin. However, sin does have consequences and while such persons may serve in certain other areas of ministry at Trinity Baptist Church, they will be prohibited from serving in the children’s and special needs ministries."

"Because we believe children are our most important concern, Trinity Baptist Church has adopted the following guidelines for reporting suspected abuse:

1. Upon observing or suspecting abuse, the caregiver shall immediately do the following:

a. Make sure the child’s safety and comfort are secured.

b. Make sure the suspected abuser is safely away from the children.

2. Report the abuse or neglect promptly to the Pastor or Elder of Children’s Ministries and/or the Pastor or Elder of Youth Ministries. To preserve confidentiality, it is important to discuss the incident initially only with any of these four individuals."

In accordance with the Church’s position that child abuse and neglect shall not be tolerated, the pastoral staff shall do the following:

1. Take all allegations of child abuse and/or neglect seriously.

2. Document all efforts at handling the incident.

3. Contact the Department of Children and Family Services (1-800-842-2288) within 12 hours. Do not attempt an in-depth investigation. This should be left to professionals who are familiar with these cases.

4. Report the incident immediately to the church insurance company and attorney.

5. Do not try to handle this without professional outside assistance.

6. Notify the parents or guardians.

7. Do not confront the accused until the safety of the child or special needs person is secured.

8. Do not prejudge the situation, but take the allegations seriously and reach out to the victim and the victim’s family. Showing care and support will help to prevent further hurt. Extend whatever pastoral resources are needed. Remember that the care and safety of the victim is the first priority.

9. Treat the accused with dignity and support. If the accused is a caregiver, that person should be relieved temporarily of his or her duties until the investigation is finished.

10. Use the text of a prepared public statement to answer the press and to convey news to the congregation.

Be careful to safeguard the privacy and confidentiality of all involved.

I have read the above policy and understand my responsibilities and expectations as a Pastor, Staff Member, or Youth and Children’s Ministry worker and agree to abide by the guidelines and policies described above.​

The document is signed, dated and kept on file. It is how, IMO, responsible Organizations balance and protect the rights of the accused, youth, workers and children. If the Watchtower would adopt, publicize and vigorously enforce policies like these I think there would be fewer opportunities for "false" claims, and much less opportunity for molesters to pluck from the flock.

 

[Deeje]

So is the JW leadership "working hard to correct their past mistakes"?

I'm open to hearing about what the JWs are now doing to address the issue of child abuse among their members and leadership.

So... what are they doing? Please be specific.

If you have followed what I have written on this thread (and others about this issue) and seen the vendetta that opposers have posted here, it is clear that the truth is sacrificed for outright slander.

Please read the following article if you really want to know how we feel about child abuse. This from 2007.

How to Protect Your Children — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

In days gone by things were not handled well for many of the reasons already stated. In those days, child sexual abuse was not viewed the way it is now, not even in the legal system. Children were in the "seen and not heard" mindset of the day. Only decades later when the damage became abundantly clear was it seen as the heinous crime that it is now. Victims no longer have to face their abusers in court.

We are not in the business of hunting down pedophiles nor are we in the business of holding someone's past against them if they are truly repentant and want to start a new life as a servant of God. If a convicted pedophile has served his time and paid his debt, and if he shows genuine remorse and a will to overcome his problem, we do not continue to condemn him for past sins....and neither does God.
We would make sure that he is never alone with children for his own sake as well as theirs.

The emotional hype posted by some here is nothing short of sickening and I hope very much that these ones will receive the same judgment that they dish out to others. Imagine if you had firmly planted your feet on a new path after a shameful past, and some idiot kept dragging you back to your former course and kept accusing you of what you had left behind. Shame on them, and good for the ones trying to build a new life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you have followed what I have written on this thread (and others about this issue) and seen the vendetta that opposers have posted here, it is clear that the truth is sacrificed for outright slander.

As opposed to what you've given: obfuscation and spin.

Please read the following article if you really want to know how we feel about child abuse. This from 2007.

How to Protect Your Children — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

If this is all you have, then I take from it:

- in principle, the Watchtower Society is opposed to child abuse.
- in practice, the Watchtower Society hasn't put any concrete measures in place to protect the children under the care of its volunteers and representatives from abuse, or to respond to abuse when it does occur.

Is that a fair assessment?

In days gone by things were not handled well for many of the reasons already stated. In those days, child sexual abuse was not viewed the way it is now, not even in the legal system. Children were in the "seen and not heard" mindset of the day. Only decades later when the damage became abundantly clear was it seen as the heinous crime that it is now. Victims no longer have to face their abusers in court.

That was in days gone by. Why aren't you handling things well now?

We are not in the business of hunting down pedophiles nor are we in the business of holding someone's past against them if they are truly repentant and want to start a new life as a servant of God. If a convicted pedophile has served his time and paid his debt, and if he shows genuine remorse and a will to overcome his problem, we do not continue to condemn him for past sins....and neither does God.

You don't need "to be in the business of hunting down pedophiles" to be in the business of protecting children?

We would make sure that he is never alone with children for his own sake as well as theirs.

Would you?

I've asked a number of times now for the official child protection or anti-abuse policy of the Watchtower Society and I've searched the JW website; nothing I've seen ever suggested that what you describe here is official policy.

The emotional hype posted by some here is nothing short of sickening and I hope very much that these ones will receive the same judgment that they dish out to others. Imagine if you had firmly planted your feet on a new path after a shameful past, and some idiot kept dragging you back to your former course and kept accusing you of what you had left behind. Shame on them, and good for the ones trying to build a new life.

Yes, those poor, poor pedophiles. Won't somebody think of the pedophiles?

 

[savagewind]

Pedophilia, the sexual attraction to children who have not yet reached puberty, remains a vexing challenge for clinicians and public officials. Classified as a paraphilia, an abnormal sexual behavior, researchers have found no effective treatment. Like other sexual orientations, pedophilia is unlikely to change. The goal of treatment, therefore, is to prevent someone from acting on pedophile urges — either by decreasing sexual arousal around children or increasing the ability to manage that arousal. But neither is as effective for reducing harm as preventing access to children, or providing close supervision.

Pessimism about pedophilia - Harvard Health

 

[Deeje]

As opposed to what you've given: obfuscation and spin.


If this is all you have, then I take from it:

- in principle, the Watchtower Society is opposed to child abuse.
- in practice, the Watchtower Society hasn't put any concrete measures in place to protect the children under the care of its volunteers and representatives from abuse, or to respond to abuse when it does occur.

Is that a fair assessment?


That was in days gone by. Why aren't you handling things well now?


You don't need "to be in the business of hunting down pedophiles" to be in the business of protecting children?


Would you?

I've asked a number of times now for the official child protection or anti-abuse policy of the Watchtower Society and I've searched the JW website; nothing I've seen ever suggested that what you describe here is official policy.


Yes, those poor, poor pedophiles. Won't somebody think of the pedophiles?

What's the point? Believe whatever you wish.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What's the point? Believe whatever you wish.

I wish to believe that the Watchtower Society behaves responsibly toward children, but I'm not going to believe it without some sort of evidence.

You insinsuated that you don't use criminal background checks in your child protection strategy because of JW ideas of forgiveness... well, what do you use in your child protection strategy? Do you even have one?

Merely saying that you disagree with child abuse isn't a policy or a strategy. Do you understand the difference?

 

[savagewind]

I wish to believe that the Watchtower Society behaves responsibly toward children, but I'm not going to believe it without some sort of evidence.

You insinsuated that you don't use criminal background checks in your child protection strategy because of JW ideas of forgiveness... well, what do you use in your child protection strategy? Do you even have one?

Merely saying that you disagree with child abuse isn't a policy or a strategy. Do you understand the difference?

If you read the Watchtower article about how to protect your child from the abuse you will see that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is the parents' job to do it. It says that the parents should be on the lookout for anyone who is taking a special interest in their child and to teach the children to say no and to tell them if anyone is making them feel uncomfortable.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you read the Watchtower article about how to protect your child from the abuse you will see that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is the parents' job to do it. It says that the parents should be on the lookout for anyone who is taking a special interest in their child and to teach the children to say no and to tell them if anyone is making them feel uncomfortable.

The Jehovah's Witnesses involve themselves in activities for children where the parents aren't present, such children's educational programs, disaster relief, and ministry to refugees.

 

[savagewind]

I think the right strategy would be for those in positions of responsibility be directed to quit spending most of their service time trying to recruit new members and to get to know those who they already have.

It shouldn't be so very hard to spot a child abuser. And it shouldn't be impossible to know whether the adult who brings the news of the child's mistreatment to the attention of the elders is trustworthy or not.

A real shepherd knows his sheep. The Jehovah's Witnesses are kept so very busy that they do not have the time to get to know their flock.

 

[savagewind]

The Jehovah's Witnesses involve themselves in activities for children where the parents aren't present, such children's educational programs, disaster relief, and ministry to refugees.

Yes. I know. I think the article's focus is on young children. If a parent allows his young child to go along alone with an adult that would be unwise. Don't you think?

The governing body can't really tell the truth which is that fellow Jehovah's Witnesses should not be trusted with your children. Why not? Oh, well, they advertise a "spiritual paradise" and to say that paradise shouldn't be trustworthy is just plain stupid.

But, I agree with YOU. OK?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes. I know. I think the article's focus is on young children. If a parent allows his young child to go along alone with an adult that would be unwise. Don't you think?

You would know better than I would whether parents are expected to be at (or are welcome at) children's programming.

And in disasters or refugee situations, the parents might be dead, unconscious in hospital, in prison, stuck on the other side of a battle, etc.

The governing body can't really tell the truth which is that fellow Jehovah's Witnesses should not be trusted with your children. Why not? Oh, well, they advertise a "spiritual paradise" and to say that paradise shouldn't be trustworthy is just plain stupid.

It's not a matter of mistrust.

I trust the other volunteers I work with, but we all still go through background checks and don't get into situations where we're alone with a kid.

But, I agree with YOU. OK?

Ok.

 

[savagewind]

It's not a matter of mistrust.

I trust the other volunteers I work with, but we all still go through background checks and don't get into situations where we're alone with a kid.
.

The matter of mistrust is what initiates background checks. And, you trust the others that you work
with because of the background checks.

 

[savagewind]

There is another important concern, I think.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the congregations are being overseen by God, Jesus, and the angels.

That any sexual assault has happened inside their spiritual paradise just goes to prove that it really isn't being overseen by Jehovah.

They're lying. Also, they are making God look bad and weak, even powerless.