Class action status sought for JW sex abuse cases

[metis]

If that is what is happening I feel sure the RF staff will deal with it.

That's not what the RF staff does, nor do I blame them for not doing so.

 

[DavidFirth]

That's not what the RF staff does, nor do I blame them for not doing so.

Demeaning other faiths is against the rules. Or so I thought.

 

[metis]

Demeaning other faiths is against the rules. Or so I thought.

As a former moderator at another website, the distinction between "criticism" and "demeaning" is very blurry, so any such rule rarely gets enforced.

 

[Oeste]

I am!
JW leaders should do exactly what a youth club leader or a shop manager or bus company exec should do....... tell the complainant to go to the police! Under no circumstances should they themselves initiate any investigations about such serious criminal offences as sex crimes. They are not trained to do it!

Exactly right. JW leaders should do this, but they don't unless they legally have to.

If somebody knocked on your door, office, vehicle and said that had been sexually assaulted, robbed, whatever, I would strongly suggest that you tell them to call the police.
Lend them your 'phone!
Vee has handled all this already!

Did you read the Telememo reporting form? They are specifically instructed not to call the Police. They call the Branch Office or Legal Department first. If the person is in a reporting state, then they phone anonymously.

Tell the complainant to call the cops!
If it's a child then immediately make contact with a suitably responsible adult and leave it all to that person.

And when that responsible adult feels they have no responsibility? Should we place the onus back on the child to call the police?

I have no problem with someone calling in a superior. It's when they fail to report it to authorities that I have a problem.

If my kid reports an incident of sexual abuse to a scout master, and that Organization fails to report it to the the proper authorities, there is going to be a problem, plain and simple.

What? And your kid did not report it to you?

Where on earth do you get that from? The scout master has care, custody and control of the children. The first obligation is to the child, not to me or anyone else. Why would you place the onus back on the child to call a parent?

Your scout master could contact you straight away, yes, but s/he would probably wonder why you had not been told first?

No, the scout master is going to wonder how she can protect the rest of the children. She is not going to wonder why the child didn't ask for a phone so they could call a parent. That is because the parent, if they received such a call, is going to wonder why the scout master didn't know about it, and why they haven't taken immediate steps to protect the children in their custody. They are going to wonder if the perpetrator is still lurking around, is with another child, and if valuable time is being lost.

Straight to the police and stand back.

Yes, the police should be called. But stand back???

I'll disagree with you on that.

Sadly such lying villains don't often get caught lying to a court, because once the authorities have been made aware of such lies the cases do not proceed. In very bad cases a criminal (adult) might be nicked for wasting police time.

Some telling the truth don't get believed either. Works both ways. The system is not perfect. It's why we need good lawyers and investigators.

Well then, let's agree that when little Christine's Mum makes allegations to a JW Elder that her estranged (whatever) huisband has committed a sex crime, the Elder should only suggest that she call the police.

If the sex crime is against another adult, yes. If it's against a child then I think we have a moral responsibility that is more than suggestion. There should also be encouragement, support and even assistance with making the report if necessary.

Sadly such quiet folks as JWs are very unlikely to persue a perjurer through the courts. They are very easy targets, you know.

I see all children as easy targets, especially for sexual predators, whether they are Jehovah Witnesses or not. So when a child is in danger, or alleges they are in danger, we need to respond.

Don't forget that Police Forces were turning away such allegations even 15 years ago.
Have you run a thread about that?

Are you making an argument for moral equivalency?

If the police failed to investigate sexual crimes then they should be criticized for it. If our churches failed to investigate sexual crimes, then our churches should be criticized for it.

The police don't get to say "Well the church never investigated when crimes were reported to them", and the church doesn't get to say "well the police never investigated sex crimes either."

Quite simply, if one is a pedophile then the Police had the proper attitude 15 years ago, so didn't the church, and any claims about sexual abuse are the result of mass hysteria.

Unless you are a Police Officer I reckon that I have detained more paedophiles than you over the years, and I have listened to many more accusations that were quite simply malicious adult lies and/or sad minor's fibs.
Why do you think I took such interest in this thread?

I believe you just told me when you stated the Police were turning away allegations 15 years ago,and that many accusations were "simply malicious adult lies and/or sad minor fibs."

All I can say is that I'm very glad we've gotten past the stage where we turn away sexual abuse allegations and into the stage where we actually investigate them.

 

[DavidFirth]

As a former moderator at another website, the distinction between "criticism" and "demeaning" is very blurry, so any such rule rarely gets enforced.

Well, then, I guess you'll just have to deal with it - or join another site where neither criticism or demeaning is allowed.

 

[Oeste]

This is a pile of dung. No way ALL JW's are responsible for this. JW's do not teach or advocate this sort of thing so the lawsuit needs to be geared at those who are guilty.

A class action lawsuit would target the corporate entity or entities of the Watchtower and not individual Jehovah Witnesses. It's possible some corporate officers could be named, but individuals would only be named to the extent they were deemed by the plaintiff(s) to be personally liable. Since there are many parties involved in class actions, there is generally one "named" plaintiff which is representative of all the plaintiffs in the suit.

Essentially class actions are the successors to "group litigation". If the Class Action is successful there is absolutely no danger that individual Jehovah Witnesses will see a bill in the mail.

 

[metis]

Well, then, I guess you'll just have to deal with it

I have been.

 

[Oeste]

Lastly, to answer the question "Why does the lawsuit seek to target the corporate structure and not just the individual perpetrators committing the crime?"

This action is based on respondeat superior which is Latin for "let the master answer." Essentially this legal doctrine states that the master must answer for the slave, and has a legal (vicarious) responsibility for the actions of his agents.

In other words, if a Federal Express employee negligently strikes you, you're not limited to an action against the driver, but can actually bring suit against Federal Express.

 

[savagewind]

I wonder what people think of Jehovah's Witness communications about donations and what they are used for?
When donations are solicited from the members of the congregations it was never reported that some of the money will be going to settle out of court settlements. I think that to know this breach is important because JWs are being taught that their organization is the only organization which is 100% approved by God and that it is being led by The Holy Spirit.



"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19

"During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah's people are making known Gods righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization."Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "Are You Prepared for Survival?"

"Is it presumptuous of Jehovah's Witnesses to point out that they alone have God's backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God's backing in spite of the Egyptians' belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God's backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists." Watchtower 2001 Jun 1 p.16

"An even greater mistake would be to allow the faults of others to stumble us and cause us to leave Jehovah's organisation. Were that to happen, we would lose not only the privilege of doing God's will but also the hope of life in God's new world." Watchtower 2016 Jun study ed pp.25-26

"If we stop actively supporting Jehovah's work, then we start following Satan. There is no middle ground." Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.18

Watchtower quotes that only Jehovah's Witnesses will be Saved

 

[DavidFirth]

A class action lawsuit would target the corporate entity or entities of the Watchtower and not individual Jehovah Witnesses. It's possible some corporate officers could be named, but individuals would only be named to the extent they were deemed by the plaintiff(s) to be personally liable. Since there are many parties involved in class actions, there is generally one "named" plaintiff which is representative of all the plaintiffs in the suit.

Essentially class actions are the successors to "group litigation". If the Class Action is successful there is absolutely no danger that individual Jehovah Witnesses will see a bill in the mail.

I don't buy even that much. The parties that can be proven guilty in a court of law are the only ones who I think should be sued.

 

[Oeste]

I don't buy even that much. The parties that can be proven guilty in a court of law are the only ones who I think should be sued.

In a class action suit you need only show the accused liable because it's a civil action. This contrasts with a criminal action where guilt or innocence comes into play.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe you just told me when you stated the Police were turning away allegations 15 years ago,and that many accusations were "simply malicious adult lies and/or sad minor fibs."

Separate issues.

All I can say is that I'm very glad we've gotten past the stage where we turn away sexual abuse allegations and into the stage where we actually investigate them.

Huh?
The topic of this thread is a Civil Action for lots of money!
Where is the Police Investigation?

And if these allegations are untrue then the Watchtower has been seriously defamed.

So let's see how these cases, if they are tried at all, reach a verdict. You do seem to write as if you have decided a verdict already. If you have then that's kinda 'armchair investigating'.

 

[oldbadger]

In a class action suit you need only show the accused liable because it's a civil action. This contrasts with a criminal action where guilt or innocence comes into play.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5712859193409536/whats-going-on-quebec-class-action
Tests for Certification
The details of the tests differ in each jurisdiction’s legislation. However, generally speaking, there are five criteria that must be satisfied in order for the action to be certified:
• the pleadings must disclose a cause of action;
• there must be an identifiable class;
• the proposed representative must be appropriate;
• there must be common issues; and
• the class action must be the preferable procedure.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.litigationboutique.com
The Petitioner Ms. Lisa Blais is represented by the law firm Woods LLP in Montreal.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sep. 15, 2017, 01:12 PM
MONTREAL, Sept, 15, 2017 /CNW Telbec/ - Ms. Lisa Blais, as Petitioner, has filed today an Application to Institute a Class Action (court docket: 500-06-000886-172) against three corporations of the Jehovah's Witnesses: The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Canada, The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania and The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.
She filed these proceedings on behalf of the following classes:
"All persons who are or were a Jehovah's Witness who allege having been sexually abused in Québec by a Jehovah's Witness Elder."
– and –
"All persons who are or were a Jehovah's Witness who allege having been sexually abused as a child in Québec, by a Jehovah's Witness."

 

[DavidFirth]

In a class action suit you need only show the accused liable because it's a civil action. This contrasts with a criminal action where guilt or innocence comes into play.

I understand all of that, however I still think that only people proven guilty should be liable.

 

[Oeste]

Separate issues.

I think it's the turning away of allegations that's the issue. It was a issue then and for those concerned about child safety it's an issue now.

To date, 18 forces are being investigated about their handling of child abuse complaints and what the IPCC has referred to as, “potential high level corruption”. Fifty six cases relate to the failings of South Yorkshire Police regarding their investigation into sexual exploitation in Rotherham, 46 relate to the Metropolitan Police and 58 against Essex Police.

Some of the cases go back decades and there are claims that investigations were closed as the suspects were well known people. Professor Jay, who was chairwoman of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse revealed in 2014 that the South Yorkshire Police had withheld evidence about the sexual abuse of teenagers in Rotherham and failed to arrest abusers.

The IPCC has stated that they are, “committed to investigating the most sensitive and serious incidents of alleged police wrongdoing and many child sexual abuse cases fall within that remit.”

Thirty seven completed cases have resulted in disciplinary proceedings against 15 officers. The IPCC have created a directorate of major investigations and are working closely with the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse and Operation Hydrant, which is a team of Police co-ordinating child abuse investigations. Source​

Huh?
The topic of this thread is a Civil Action for lots of money!

Agreed. That sometimes happens when claimed injuries are severe.

Where is the Police Investigation?

An excellent question to ask the Police.

And if these allegations are untrue then the Watchtower has been seriously defamed.

Conversely, if the allegations are true innocent children have been harmed and still more are in harm's way.

So let's see how these cases, if they are tried at all, reach a verdict.

I’m sure there are quite a few who want to see a verdict on this claim. ;-)

However I’m also sure you’d agree this doesn’t preclude intelligent discussion...like we and other posters are having now...nor should we wait for verdicts if our goal is to protect at risk children.

You do seem to write as if you have decided a verdict already.

Aww gee,Old Badger, and here I was going to say the same about you

 

[oldbadger]

I think it's the turning away of allegations that's the issue. It was a issue then and for those concerned about child safety it's an issue now.

To date, 18 forces are being investigated about their handling of child abuse complaints and what the IPCC has referred to as, “potential high level corruption”.​

​

You see? I mentioned this earlier.......
Sexual abuse was occuring in mostly every part, mostly everywhere. The lists of politicians, film stars, singers, celebrities etc etc that have been convicted or shamed is huge.
Corruption in the Metroplitan Police (and most other forces) was HUGE and held in the grip of secret societies such as Freemasonry.

I wouldn't know about Canadian police forces though.

But today a few folks, possibly with an agenda, can't wait for Courts to make convictions...... can they?

Agreed. That sometimes happens when claimed injuries are severe.

That's one big problem. It's a temptation..... for some.
Person cannot ever expect to be able to afford to buy a house on even good wages.
*Thinks* ....... Think of, or think up, a lawsuit for huge punitive damages.

......... and the potentials for mass perjury are now rising to the surface. The UK (for one) is having to act against perjurers in order to slow down the false allegations.

An excellent question to ask the Police.

The Police should have been asked first. You seem to think that the JWs should be its own police force or something. And your ideas about carrying out private investigations seem very poor to me.
In fact, if the JWs did what you propose, then litigation brought by previously defamed innocent parents could have been huge.

Conversely, if the allegations are true innocent children have been harmed and still more are in harm's way.

Oh please! Just leave it to the investigators to sort the truth from the lies, because there will be piles of both.
The JWs are not investigators!
I think that you might be very biased, because this thread (and the Canadian Lawsuit) could be about sports clubs, supermarket employees, airline crews, the military etc but some folks have taken a religion to hold high and shake about.

Wait for the Canadian Legal Decision!
Wait for any Judgements!

I’m sure there are quite a few who want to see a verdict on this claim. ;-)

At last! You are prepared to wait for judgements and verdicts. So I might have got somewhere after all.

Aww gee,Old Badger, and here I was going to say the same about you

Of course you were.
But you'd have been wrong, because all I ever wait for is PROCESS to finish.

Snatching one of thousands from the winds......I forget how many ££billions the past owner of FI racing paid for all of many allegations and claims to go away. I forget how many mass graves have been found at care-homes run by various institutions.

But this time Ms Lisa Blais's application has been grasped by hungry media and spread far and wide, and a I perceive that millions of non-witnesses will be interested enough or hateful enough to rub their hands in glee about it all. What a mob! Are you in the mob too?

I for one simply wait to see how the legal process might find.
So you were quite wrong there...... aw-gee!

I'm done, said all I can say. Feel free to have the last word.

 

[Deeje]

How old is your imaginary child? 6yrs? 11yrs? 17yrs?
The point is that children usually report bad actions and bad things to their parents! Their parents might seek guidance from the JWs but they have every right to report directly to the police.

For instance, if somebody might report to me that my wife, uncle, brother (whoever) had committed a criminal offence I would most probably not report their claims and allegations to the police, I would probably tell them that it was up to them what they might decide to do. The same goes for companies, clubs, instutions, hotels.... or religions.


The allegations might be lies! To report allegations which later prove to be lies is serious defamation! Where a parent or any person alleges a crime then they themselves must report it to the authorities.


Of course!
Forget the JWs for a second, just tell me what a company branch manager would do if an employee reported sexual abuse by a company employee........ That branch manager would most probably need to call a superior or a security department for further investigation.
Your getting nowhere with this.


OK.
Who do (or did) you work for? What was that organisation's code about the reporting of sexual offences?
Would you have offended your company if you had reported an allegation to authorities which was later unproven, bringing down reproachment and even litigation upon your company?


Absolutely!
No sensible organisation or company would arrange any meeting with a minor and an accused. No company that I know would arrange a meeting between accuser and any accused.
And single witnesses have been found to lie or perjure themselves in criminal trials. In the UK we have got fed up with those sex-crime witnesses who lie in court and if they are adults we jail 'em. Obviously children who commit perjury (and some have done so) have often been coerced into doing so, so further investigation about that would be necessary.


Please 'source' any incident where the JWs have interviewed a child on their own, without a suitably responsible adult being present.

Sadly the last (previous) ArchBishop of Canterbury has recently confessed (been found out?) to applying some level of obstruction in several cases against one of his Bishops, that Bishop being later convicted of several criminal sexual offences and being imprisoned for many years (can't remember how many years).

The day that JWs are shown (reliably, please) to have committed any criminal offences reaching the levels of convictions upon priests from most other Christian Churches, that will be the day.

Many thanks for your balanced and and unbiased reply to these serious accusations OB.
Those predisposed to want to hang, draw and quarter JW's over any issue could take a leaf out of your book.

Perhaps a small reminder that how quick we are to judge others is how we will be judged ourselves.

This is a quote from a 2005 WT....
"In our time, rape is also a major crime with severe penalties. The victim has every right to report the matter to the police. In this way the proper authorities can punish the offender. And if the victim is a minor, the parents may want to initiate these actions."

It has always been our policy to report child abuse. But in times past such cases were not handled sensitively in the courts. Under cross examination victims were often made to feel as if they were somehow to blame for the abuse. Lawyers were more interested in victory than in justice. The victims were sometimes left more traumatized by the legal proceedings than the actual assault. Parents often did not choose to go down that path if there were no witnesses to prove that the abuse happened. That is the one thing that is so difficult in these cases....there are usually no witnesses. If more than one child comes forward with an allegation, then it is more likely to be substantiated and has more likelihood of prosecution. The elders in our congregations are not police officers and like the courts, they needs evidence too. Until there is evidence, there is just an allegation.

A little perspective will cast a bit more light on these things.

 

[oldbadger]

Many thanks for your balanced and and unbiased reply to these serious accusations OB.
Those predisposed to want to hang, draw and quarter JW's over any issue could take a leaf out of your book.

Thankyou!
Thankyou very much.

This is a quote from a 2005 WT....
"In our time, rape is also a major crime with severe penalties. The victim has every right to report the matter to the police. In this way the proper authorities can punish the offender. And if the victim is a minor, the parents may want to initiate these actions."

Bingo!
That is exactly what I would imagine any JW body to support.
Exactly that.

It has always been our policy to report child abuse. But in times past such cases were not handled sensitively in the courts. Under cross examination victims were often made to feel as if they were somehow to blame for the abuse.

Agreed.
I am surprised by the number of claims that are made by parents and teachers, carers etc against those who have reported child abuses which were later disproved. The damages and punitive charges made against those who make incorrect or unproven allegations can be huge.

Imagine what some members would be saying if the Watchtower was being sued for interfering in 'child interrogations' and falsely accusing other people of child abuse.

I personally believe that it's best to wait for Court Judgements and findings before anticipating such results.

A little perspective will cast a bit more light on these claims.

Exactly.

And thankyou again for your kind words.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is a pile of dung. No way ALL JW's are responsible for this.

"All JWs" haven't been named in the lawsuit.

JW's do not teach or advocate this sort of thing so the lawsuit needs to be geared at those who are guilty.

If an organization has care of children, it isn't enough to just disapprove of abuse; the organization has responsibilities to protect the kids under its care and to report abuse when they find out about it. This trial will get at the question of whether these responsibilities were met.

This just sounds like a money grab attempt to me.

What facts of the case convinced you of this?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Many thanks for your balanced and and unbiased reply to these serious accusations OB.
Those predisposed to want to hang, draw and quarter JW's over any issue could take a leaf out of your book.

Perhaps a small reminder that how quick we are to judge others is how we will be judged ourselves.

This is a quote from a 2005 WT....
"In our time, rape is also a major crime with severe penalties. The victim has every right to report the matter to the police. In this way the proper authorities can punish the offender. And if the victim is a minor, the parents may want to initiate these actions."

It has always been our policy to report child abuse. But in times past such cases were not handled sensitively in the courts. Under cross examination victims were often made to feel as if they were somehow to blame for the abuse. Lawyers were more interested in victory than in justice. The victims were sometimes left more traumatized by the legal proceedings than the actual assault. Parents often did not choose to go down that path if there were no witnesses to prove that the abuse happened. That is the one thing that is so difficult in these cases....there are usually no witnesses. If more than one child comes forward with an allegation, then it is more likely to be substantiated and has more likelihood of prosecution. The elders in our congregations are not police officers and like the courts, they needs evidence too. Until there is evidence, there is just an allegation.

A little perspective will cast a bit more light on these things.

You talk about "our policy" - can you give the actual JW abuse prevention policy? As I mentioned earlier, I wasn't able to find one on JW.org and nobody provided it when I asked earlier.