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Churches lack democracy.

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The laity are not adept at making complicated theological decisions. They shouldn't be voting on this any more than they should be voting on medical issues. Religion isn't about democracy, it's about the ultimate truth. People will vote for what they want, not what's true or theologically correct.
US Church History SCREAMS the truth of this. If the laity get to decide things they'll decide clergy with no training and who has never read the Bible is ok. They'll attack education and vote against it. In time they can even work to the top of politics and that, once again America is here to show they world that even still today it is inappropriate for religion to helm such complexed, large and diverse populations (many in the UK and Ireland still remember the Troubles).
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
You are talking about a religious cult and it's various factions. I am talking about religion as a category of human endeavor. A collection of spiritual and psychological tools that people can use to help them live their lives according to their chosen theological perspective.
The Bible does not have democratic churches but rather is a dictatorship with full submission expected to Jehovah. A woman submits to her husband, her husband submits to god. That isn't a democracy when it's preordained how things will be conducted.
Same is true of the U.S. government. Always has been authoritarian.
Go live in China for a few years and come back and tell us that again with a straight face.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The Bible does not have democratic churches but rather is a dictatorship with full submission expected to Jehovah. A woman submits to her husband, her husband submits to god. That isn't a democracy when it's preordained how things will be conducted.
The Bible is a collection of texts written by a lot of different people in a lot of different times and circumstances and with a lot of different purposes in mind. The selfish desire to control the world around us including each other for our own gain is so entrenched in humanity that democracy has been a very rare and short-loved phenomenon among us throughout our history. Everything we do seeks to undermine it the moment it manages to occur, even to this day. So it shouldn't come as any big surprise that we see almost no reflection of it in those ancient texts.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The selfish desire to control the world around us including each other for our own gain is so entrenched in humanity that democracy has been a very rare and short-loved phenomenon among us throughout our history.
Damn. And I think I'm pessimistic and cynical.
Actually liberal democracies are still too new to have been a major occurrence in our species history, especially as the end of World War 1 marks a modern movement from monarchies and kingdoms to liberal democracy becoming more the norm (especially in the West), with the end of World War 2 solidifying this trend.
Try reading philosophy, social, amd political texts over the years and centuries. You'll gain a much clearer picture of what's going on, especially in regards to development of rights and a democratic vote.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bible is a collection of texts written by a lot of different people in a lot of different times and circumstances and with a lot of different purposes in mind. The selfish desire to control the world around us including each other for our own gain is so entrenched in humanity that democracy has been a very rare and short-loved phenomenon among us throughout our history. Everything we do seeks to undermine it the moment it manages to occur, even to this day. So it shouldn't come as any big surprise that we see almost no reflection of it in those ancient texts.
The New Testament presents us with a basic description of Deacons, Priests and Bishops. This goes right back to the Apostles who are given authority by Jesus over demons, to baptise and to heal, forgive sins etc. This Apostolic Authority is passed down, conferred from one bishop, priest etc. to the next, and so on to today. Paul writes about these positions and he speaks about Church leadership and we know about James being the head of the Jerusalem Church, i.e., the bishop. This system hasn't come from nowhere and is visible in some of the earliest Church history.

I also fail to see how it's problematic.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The New Testament presents us with a basic description of Deacons, Priests and Bishops. This goes right back to the Apostles who are given authority by Jesus over demons, to baptise and to heal, forgive sins etc. This Apostolic Authority is passed down, conferred from one bishop, priest etc. to the next, and so on to today. Paul writes about these positions and he speaks about Church leadership and we know about James being the head of the Jerusalem Church, i.e., the bishop. This system hasn't come from nowhere and is visible in some of the earliest Church history.

I also fail to see how it's problematic.
I know you do. And that's unfortunate for you.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are talking about a religious cult and it's various factions. I am talking about religion as a category of human endeavor. A collection of spiritual and psychological tools that people can use to help them live their lives according to their chosen theological perspective.
I normally find myself in agreement with you. Here I'm going to challenge your line of reasoning. All we need to do is look at the way the Bible for example is interpreted by hacks to say pretty much anything they want it to say, to bludgeon others with it, to justify wrong-doings they are guilty of, to sanction oppression, and even the death of others.

@Rival does have a point. When it comes to understanding the deeper truths of a spiritual lineage, or even just depths of Wisdom herself, there is a massive difference between some dude who read some quote from the Buddha, or from the Tao De Ching on some web forum, and someone who has spent their lives uncovering the riches and treasures of sacred knowledge through years of personal practice, and research.

Hack versus Experts. Specialists matter. There is massive difference between the Dalai Lama, and Fred Phelps. Pearls and swine.

I think that's the real point here. Heck, I'd be more than in favor of putting a warning label on every Bible about what can happen when novices think they understand what they are reading!

While there are issues with the "experts" too, at least they should be somewhat more well informed than just some hack who doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. It's like giving a chainsaw to a 6 year old. :)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Hack versus Experts. Specialists matter. There is massive difference between the Dalai Lama, and Fred Phelps. Pearls and swine.
The issue is that Christians tend to be very dismissive of anyone with a criticism about Christianity. This gets so embarrassingly bad for Christians that they'll insist it's atheist who criticize it when it's a theist of a different religion doing the criticism. They'll say other denominations are wrong and hellbound. They rarely listen to apostates amd consider their words, preferring instead to claim we were never real Christians to begin with. Or they'll start with how I can't understand the Bible because I'm not filled with the holy ghost to gain that interpretation. Which is a garbage claim because I still remember much about what I was taught as a Christian. But I just didn't go to a real Church blessed by Jehovah is what they say, but my old church said the same about them.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
The laity are not adept at making complicated theological decisions.
They should be.

They shouldn't be voting on this any more than they should be voting on medical issues.
Why? What makes a priest any more qualified than the laity? A priest's job was to maintain the temples, not safeguard the Secrets to God from the commonfolk.

Religion isn't about democracy, it's about the ultimate truth.
It absolutely should be. A religion is a faith community, and any rules instated upon it affect that entire community. The dogma and doctrine don't drive towards an "ultimate truth", they exist to uphold and perpetuate a given system. Having such rigid doctrine only to be touched by The Worthy strips a religion of it's theology, reducing it - as we see with the Catholics - to a business.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Having such rigid doctrine only to be touched by The Worthy strips a religion of it's theology, reducing it - as we see with the Catholics - to a business.
Please define "business" in this context. Also, maybe give us an example of a Christian denomination that isn't supposedly a "business".
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Theology is the science of God
Comparing theology to science is laughable.

In science observations of reality are made, theories are proposed, tested and rejected.

In Abrahamic theology I believe a series of contradictory claims are made, then once they have gathered enough dust to be considered received truths someone comes along and tries to rationalise all the claims. It is *not* science.

In my opinion.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
....................................
Rather, I find instead of the churches lack democracy they lack theocracy.
Not the modern-day definition of theocracy which is rule by clergy or clergy class, but the theocracy Jesus believed in.
Jesus as King of God's theocratic (God ruled) Kingdom government (Daniel 2:44-45) coming to Earth.
The government asked for to come when asking for ' thy kingdom come.......'
In which Jesus will govern in righteousness over Earth for a thousand years.

- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The New Testament presents us with a basic description of Deacons, Priests and Bishops. This goes right back to the Apostles who are given authority by Jesus over demons, to baptise and to heal, forgive sins etc. This Apostolic Authority is passed down, conferred from one bishop, priest etc. to the next, and so on to today. Paul writes about these positions and he speaks about Church leadership and we know about James being the head of the Jerusalem Church, i.e., the bishop. This system hasn't come from nowhere and is visible in some of the earliest Church history. I also fail to see how it's problematic.

Yes, qualified men to keep the congregation spiritually strong as per 1 Timothy 3:1-16; 5:1-6:2 A; Titus 1:5-9.
In today's school system the teacher is over the pupil, the principal over the teacher, and the super over the principal.
No one complains about that system's order because it works, and so does the theocratic order found in Timothy and Titus.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
You're describing a cult, not a religion. Religions don't dictate, they serve. Cults dictate.

A role of the Church is to preserve the teaching given to us by God. They actually believe God did that and that the teachings should not be decided according to a vote by those in the church.
But yes Bishops and Popes and Priests and laity are all human and with leanings in one direction or another.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Comparing theology to science is laughable.

In science observations of reality are made, theories are proposed, tested and rejected.

In Abrahamic theology I believe a series of contradictory claims are made, then once they have gathered enough dust to be considered received truths someone comes along and tries to rationalise all the claims. It is *not* science.

In my opinion.
Theology is the science of God, like it or lump it. I get you seem to hate Abrahamic religion but that doesn't mean you get to redfine its terms. There are different kinds of sciences. Ba dum.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Theology is the science of God, like it or lump it. I get you seem to hate Abrahamic religion but that doesn't mean you get to redfine its terms. There are different kinds of sciences. Ba dum.
I believe only if you redefine science for semantic purposes.
What aspect of theology follows the scientific method?
What observations were made to determine that prayer really works for example?
In my opinion
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I normally find myself in agreement with you. Here I'm going to challenge your line of reasoning. All we need to do is look at the way the Bible for example is interpreted by hacks to say pretty much anything they want it to say, to bludgeon others with it, to justify wrong-doings they are guilty of, to sanction oppression, and even the death of others.
The reason that happens is because much of the biblical text was not written to 'instruct', but rather to confound. So as to inspire the reader to contemplate and humble oneself before an all powerful, all knowing, and therefor inexplicable God. This leaves it open to interpretation, which can then be abused by those who want to presume themselves to be God's interpreters.
@Rival does have a point. When it comes to understanding the deeper truths of a spiritual lineage, or even just depths of Wisdom herself, there is a massive difference between some dude who read some quote from the Buddha, or from the Tao De Ching on some web forum, and someone who has spent their lives uncovering the riches and treasures of sacred knowledge through years of personal practice, and research.
I am not arguing that there is no difference in depth of understanding religiosity. I am arguing that the difference remains with the individual. Our understanding and relationship with the great mysterious possibility that we call "God" is something that only we can determine, for ourselves. Even when we allow others to dictate this determination to us, we are still choosing to allow them to do that. And we are still responsible for who that choice causes us to become in the world.

We humans crave control. And there will never be a shortage of humans wanting to use the mask of "prophesy" or "divination" or "holy righteousness" some other form of religious authoritarian nonsense to try and control everyone around them (to their own advantage). But we all have free will, and a mind of our own that we can use to push them away, and reject their desire to control us. But that means we will have to do some theological thinking for ourselves. And we will have to try out a spiritual practice with sincerity, but also skepticism, if we want to determine it's validity for us. The cults rely on our being lazy, and willfully ignorant. And they try to keep their adherent that way by endlessly preaching "belief" in their phony authority instead of actual faith in a God of our own understanding.
Hack versus Experts. Specialists matter. There is massive difference between the Dalai Lama, and Fred Phelps. Pearls and swine.
This is a false characterization based on the idea that we can accumulate knowledge of God. Which we cannot. The true metric is honesty, not knowledge. Something many religions are sorely lacking. There are no hacks or experts when it comes to "God". Only when it comes to religion. Something the religious among us need to always keep in mind.
I think that's the real point here. Heck, I'd be more than in favor of putting a warning label on every Bible about what can happen when novices think they understand what they are reading!
The Bible presents no threat to anyone. It's not the problem. The readers are. The bible is no different than any other tool. If we use it properly, it can be very useful. If we use it as a weapon, it can be very dangerous. We decide which we will be for us. Not it. And the same is true of religion in general. It can be our servant, or it can be our master. But either way, it's not God, it's a human device, so we need to beware.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
A role of the Church is to preserve the teaching given to us by God. They actually believe God did that and that the teachings should not be decided according to a vote by those in the church.
How convenient of them to believe that they are the gatekeepers between humanity and God! And all the more so if they can get a whole bunch of frightened, ignorant people to believe them! Why, they could become the very voice of God that way! Just imagine if you could order people around with the authority of God Himself! And they DID WHAT YOU SAID! You might come to imagine that you really are the voice of God.
But yes Bishops and Popes and Priests and laity are all human and with leanings in one direction or another.
The greater the power we give them, the more corrupted by it they will become. This is inevitable, because they are humans, not gods or demigods. And only the way to avoid that corruption is to make sure they remains our servants, and not our dictators. Something nearly all church organizations will resist even when they play lip service to the idea.
 
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