Christians - priesthood authority

[glasgowchick]

It says right in the verse, "I give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." How is it that hard?

Its not that its hard, however I guess its down to how one reads the verse..

 

[Aqualung]

Its not that its hard, however I guess its down to how one reads the verse..

I don't understand how you could read it any other way, though. It specificially says that the keys are to bind and loose. How can you read it any other way.

 

[glasgowchick]

I do see what the passage says aqualung, its the interpretation of the passage people see differently as explained above in the post I sent previously on how others explain the verses..

 

[Aqualung]

I do see what the passage says aqualung, its the interpretation of the passage people see differently as explained above in the post I sent previously on how others explain the verses..

I know it's the interpretation. But I just wonder how you could interpret it. It's like this, "Here is the key for the front door of my house." And then somebody comes along and tries to convince that the key is really for the back door of my office. I clearly stated what they key was for, and I don't understand where the contention comes from.

 

[Mike182]

I know it's the interpretation. But I just wonder how you could interpret it. It's like this, "Here is the key for the front door of my house." And then somebody comes along and tries to convince that the key is really for the back door of my office. I clearly stated what they key was for, and I don't understand where the contention comes from.

"I give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

i think the disagreement is about what the keys actually are

one inturpritation of "the keys" could be exactly that, jesus gave him a big gold key, which he must use to literaly unlock the gates of heaven with - this is a valid intupritation based on scripture, but is highly imporbable

you could inturprit this as being a special annointing, that gives him authority to do certain things, and that only priest's who reach this status can also do this

or you could inturprit it as jesus, through this one act, is giving all members of the christian brotherhood the "keys" to access the power and spirit of God

C_P

 

[Aqualung]

"I give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

i think the disagreement is about what the keys actually are

one inturpritation of "the keys" could be exactly that, jesus gave him a big gold key, which he must use to literaly unlock the gates of heaven with - this is a valid intupritation based on scripture, but is highly imporbable

you could inturprit this as being a special annointing, that gives him authority to do certain things, and that only priest's who reach this status can also do this

or you could inturprit it as jesus, through this one act, is giving all members of the christian brotherhood the "keys" to access the power and spirit of God

C_P

Aaahhh. I see. Thanks C_P.

 

[Mike182]

Aaahhh. I see. Thanks C_P.

only doing what im paid for ........ except i don't get paid ...... yet .....

 

[Katzpur]

"I give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

i think the disagreement is about what the keys actually are

one inturpritation of "the keys" could be exactly that, jesus gave him a big gold key, which he must use to literaly unlock the gates of heaven with - this is a valid intupritation based on scripture, but is highly imporbable

I'll go along with you on that.

you could inturprit this as being a special annointing, that gives him authority to do certain things, and that only priest's who reach this status can also do this

Which would, I believe, be the correct interpretation.

or you could inturprit it as jesus, through this one act, is giving all members of the christian brotherhood the "keys" to access the power and spirit of God

In which case, there is very little point to having keys at all. The express purpose of a key of any kind is to allow limited access to something valuable. If everyone has a copy of the key, why even bother to lock the door?

Yes, of course, Jesus wants all of us to be able to enter His Kingdom, but because not everyone is worthy, only those to whom He has expressely given the authority to act in His name are entitled to hold the keys. Jesus quite simply would not have made a point of turning the keys to the Kingdom over to Peter.

 

[Snowbear]

Yes, of course, Jesus wants all of us to be able to enter His Kingdom, but because not everyone is worthy...

Worthy? Is anyone truly worthy? Are you? I have yet to meet anyone who is without sin and actually worthy to enter His Kingdom, much less worthy enough to hold those keys. It is only by His grace that we unworthy ones will enter. And only by grace and forgiveness that any human is given the Kingdom keys....

 

[Bennettresearch]

StewpidLoser,

(I hope you know that every time I type your name, I feel guilty! )

First of all, I would like to ask you what you think this passage from Acts means:

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:17-19)

Second, I'd like to point out that there is a difference between experiencing the influence of the Holy Ghost and having the "Gift of the Holy Ghost," (i.e. the promise of His constant companionship). The Holy Ghost is a sanctifier, a revelator, a teacher and a comforter. He can make Himself known to anybody at any time for any righteous purpose. But, one only receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost after having been baptized and by the laying on of hands. It is a spiritual gift, and it's only given by one who has the authority to do so (as the previous passage explains).

Or so the Establishment Church says.

The objections to this claimed authority are actually quite valid. The Holy Spirit can come to someone who has not been baptized or even gone to church. I know, because I have experienced it. While it is OK for me that cermonial rites and baptisms are performed by someone ordained, I could as easily pose the question as to whether this person was a representative of God or not. Because they say so? There is a clear line of apostilic succession?
One looks more to the spirituality of said person than merely accepting their rank or authority based on the sanction of an institution. A person can be baptized in life through all kinds of trials and experiences. I would argue that this would supercede anyone sprinkling water on you an saying a few words.

 

[Bennettresearch]

The meaning of this verse has been a subject of debate for centuries, Some say the keys represent the authority to carry out church discipline, legislation
and administration, [ 18:15-18 ] while others say the keys give authority to announce the forgiveness of sins [ John 20:23 ] still others say the keys may be an oportunity to bring people to the kingdom of heaven by presenting them with the message of salvation found in Gods word [ Acts 15:7-9 ] The religous leaders thought they held the keys of the kingdom and they tried to shut some people out. We cannot decide to open or close the kingdom of heaven for others, but God uses us to help others find the way inside, To all who believe in Christ and obey His words the Kingdom door is swung wide open.

Hi GC,

You are very close in your last sentence. The basis that Jesus was stating was the TRUTH of HIS WORD. Therefore, as you grow spiritually and know the truth, this is the key to unlocking the doors of heaven. Or keys, meaning a wide range of truths unlocking the doors to heaven. These can be found outside of the Church even though the church might no think so.

 

[glasgowchick]

I know it's the interpretation. But I just wonder how you could interpret it. It's like this, "Here is the key for the front door of my house." And then somebody comes along and tries to convince that the key is really for the back door of my office. I clearly stated what they key was for, and I don't understand where the contention comes from.

Sorry Aqualung, I see what your getting at now, that was poor reading of your post in my part.. Im trying to quit smoking again so Im kinda on edge.C-P Has done a good Job of explaining and you seem to have got the idea of how one could interpretate things differently..

 

[glasgowchick]

Hi GC,

You are very close in your last sentence. The basis that Jesus was stating was the TRUTH of HIS WORD. Therefore, as you grow spiritually and know the truth, this is the key to unlocking the doors of heaven. Or keys, meaning a wide range of truths unlocking the doors to heaven. These can be found outside of the Church even though the church might no think so.

Hi Bennetresearch, those quotes I used, I had taken them out of the foot notes..So are you saying that Peter was the first one to use the keys when he took the gospel first to the Jews..thanks...

 

[Mike182]

Which would, I believe, be the correct interpretation.

this is of course fine, so long as you accept the validity of all other inturpritations aswell

In which case, there is very little point to having keys at all. The express purpose of a key of any kind is to allow limited access to something valuable. If everyone has a copy of the key, why even bother to lock the door?

erm, the fact that God is not locking his door

however, not everybody in this world has read about and accepted jesus's offer of salvation on the cross, so not EVERYBODY has accepted their keys

Yes, of course, Jesus wants all of us to be able to enter His Kingdom, but because not everyone is worthy, only those to whom He has expressely given the authority to act in His name are entitled to hold the keys. Jesus quite simply would not have made a point of turning the keys to the Kingdom over to Peter.

i said that the keys are bestowed onto all members of the christian brotherhood, i did not say everyone in the entire world because i do not believe EVERYONE to have the authority, i believe everyone WHO IS A CHRISTIAN has the authority, as i believe we who are all christians have been called by christ - thus he has chosen us! by us accepting God and Christ, we have accepted our keys to heaven and the power within it, including the power to bring and baptise others into faith aswell.

My belief in this does not in any way say that everyone is worthy of salvation, nor undermine the salvation of others, and is a perfectly valid belief based upon scripture, just like yours is

C_P

 

[Aqualung]

this is of course fine, so long as you accept the validity of all other inturpritations aswell

She doesn't have to accept the validity, she just has to let you keep your views.
[quote-C_P]erm, the fact that God is not locking his door[/quote]If he's not locking the door, why give out a key in the first place. "Here you go. Here's a key to the door. But I never lock the door. Anybody can come and go as they please. I just thought I would give you the key anyway."

however, not everybody in this world has read about and accepted jesus's offer of salvation on the cross, so not EVERYBODY has accepted their keys

Not every body even gets keys. Or at least, not everybody gets all the keys. I will never the keys of baptism. That's a fact. Even though I have read about and accepted Jesus's offer of savation on the cross.

i said that the keys are bestowed onto all members of the christian brotherhood, i did not say everyone in the entire world because i do not believe EVERYONE to have the authority, i believe everyone WHO IS A CHRISTIAN has the authority, as i believe we who are all christians have been called by christ - thus he has chosen us! by us accepting God and Christ, we have accepted our keys to heaven and the power within it, including the power to bring and baptise others into faith aswell.

Did all isrealites have the keys to the aaronic priesthood? No. It didn't change that suddenly everybody could do whatever they wanted when Jesus came.

 

[Melody]

If he really wanted everybody to baptise people, he would have made that clear over and over..

I used this same argument to say that if tithing was scriptural, then wouldn't God have made it clear over and over. Some members here said that wasn't necessary. The fact that he made a covenant with the Jews was enough to continue the practice.

So, using that same logic, since He said it once in regards to baptism (that all could baptize) shouldn't once be enough?

 

[Quiddity]

I used this same argument to say that if tithing was scriptural, then wouldn't God have made it clear over and over. Some members here said that wasn't necessary. The fact that he made a covenant with the Jews was enough to continue the practice.

So, using that same logic, since He said it once in regards to baptism (that all could baptize) shouldn't once be enough?

Melody, without going off on a tangent, I would just like to note that there more then a couple doctrines that most Christians accept that are not clear (Canon for one).

~Victor

 

[Melody]

Melody, without going off on a tangent, I would just like to note that there more then a couple doctrines that most Christians accept that are not clear (Canon for one).

~Victor

Victor.....I agree with you.

I just think that if they're going to say my belief is not valid because "God would've said it more than once if he meant it" is contradictory when they say "God said it once and that should be enough". So I'm just throwing it out there.

Aqualung, I am not saying *you* said this.

 

[Mike182]

She doesn't have to accept the validity, she just has to let you keep your views.

i think that out of common curtosey, we should all accept other people's views as valid

If he's not locking the door, why give out a key in the first place. "Here you go. Here's a key to the door. But I never lock the door. Anybody can come and go as they please. I just thought I would give you the key anyway."

the doors are unlocked to us when we knock on them, if we never knock, they will never be open, and some people simply never knock, ergo they are locked to them. do you think that when we knock on Gods door, he will turn us away from his power and grace?

Not every body even gets keys. Or at least, not everybody gets all the keys. I will never the keys of baptism. That's a fact. Even though I have read about and accepted Jesus's offer of savation on the cross.
Did all isrealites have the keys to the aaronic priesthood? No. It didn't change that suddenly everybody could do whatever they wanted when Jesus came.

but why do they need to become aaronic priest's to be able to baptise

this is a bit of an overstatement, im not saying everyone can do what they feel like :banghead3

 

[Aqualung]

i think that out of common curtosey, we should all accept other people's views as valid

Don't be rediculous. If you walked up to me and said, "I beleive the oceans only cover 1/5 of the earth's surface," I don't have to accept that as valid! Out of common courtesy I should probably not ridicule you for your views, but accept as valid is a little too much. And, if you say that expecting to engage in a debate, I'm going to, no matter how valid you think you are.

the doors are unlocked to us when we knock on them, if we never knock, they will never be open, and some people simply never knock, ergo they are locked to them. do you think that when we knock on Gods door, he will turn us away from his power and grace?

That's a good argument. But the door isn't where you think it is. The door is at the end of the "straight and narrow path." You have to do all sorts of things (which is why the path is so narrow), then you'll get to the door to knock on it.

but why do they need to become aaronic priest's to be able to baptise

this is a bit of an overstatement, im not saying everyone can do what they feel like :banghead3

The needed the aaronic priesthood to baptise because only certain people can do certain things. Because Jesus only gives his keys to certain people.