Christians - priesthood authority

[Katzpur]

Worthy? Is anyone truly worthy? Are you? I have yet to meet anyone who is without sin and actually worthy to enter His Kingdom, much less worthy enough to hold those keys. It is only by His grace that we unworthy ones will enter. And only by grace and forgiveness that any human is given the Kingdom keys....

I didn't say that anyone is without sin. I know I'm certainly not. But, I believe that when we repent of our sins and are baptized by one holding the proper authority, we enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. As part of that covenant, not only are we cleansed of our prior sins, but we are promised that our future sins will be forgiven -- provided we continue to do our best and repent whenever it becomes necessary.

Consider this mathematical example: What is the sum of a negative, finite number (which represents me?) and a positive infinite, number (which represents Christ)? It's a positive infinite number, isn't it? So, while I am not worthy on my own, I am worthy when I enter into this relationship with my Savior. At least that's how I see it.

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

Or so the Establishment Church says.

The objections to this claimed authority are actually quite valid. The Holy Spirit can come to someone who has not been baptized or even gone to church. I know, because I have experienced it. While it is OK for me that cermonial rites and baptisms are performed by someone ordained, I could as easily pose the question as to whether this person was a representative of God or not. Because they say so? There is a clear line of apostilic succession?

Because they say so and can prove their rightful succession to their priesthood.

One looks more to the spirituality of said person than merely accepting their rank or authority based on the sanction of an institution. A person can be baptized in life through all kinds of trials and experiences. I would argue that this would supercede anyone sprinkling water on you an saying a few words.

And I would argue that both the spirituality of the individual and their authority count equally. Anyone can sprinkle water on someone and say a few words. I would want to know that the power behind those words was God's power. (And sprinkling wouldn't cut it, either way.)

 

[Mike182]

Don't be rediculous. If you walked up to me and said, "I beleive the oceans only cover 1/5 of the earth's surface," I don't have to accept that as valid! Out of common courtesy I should probably not ridicule you for your views, but accept as valid is a little too much. And, if you say that expecting to engage in a debate, I'm going to, no matter how valid you think you are.

but in this example you can measure how much of the earth's surface is coverd by water, you can give an exact answer - in matters of faith, you cannot give an exact answer tha tyou know to be perfectly true, that is why it is called faith - so all faith should be respected as being perfectly valid, or to put it another way, no faith should be deemed as invalid

Consider this mathematical example: What is the sum of a negative, finite number (which represents me?) and a positive infinite, number (which represents Christ)? It's a positive infinite number, isn't it? So, while I am not worthy on my own, I am worthy when I enter into this relationship with my Savior. At least that's how I see it.

i agree 100% with this, the only thing i do not agree with you on is who has the authority to do this!

C_P

 

[Aqualung]

but in this example you can measure how much of the earth's surface is coverd by water, you can give an exact answer - in matters of faith, you cannot give an exact answer tha tyou know to be perfectly true, that is why it is called faith - so all faith should be respected as being perfectly valid, or to put it another way, no faith should be deemed as invalid

I'm allowed to deem whatever I want valid or invalid. It's just a matter of whether or not I repect it. I can say that I don't think taoism is a valid way to exaltation, but I can still respect the beleifs and allow people to be taoists. There's a difference between a respect and an acceptance of validity.

 

[Mike182]

I'm allowed to deem whatever I want valid or invalid. It's just a matter of whether or not I repect it. I can say that I don't think taoism is a valid way to exaltation, but I can still respect the beleifs and allow people to be taoists. There's a difference between a respect and an acceptance of validity.

i will start another thread for this so as not to divulge

 

[Katzpur]

this is of course fine, so long as you accept the validity of all other inturpritations aswell

Valid means, "sound, well-grounded in evidence." I can't accept as valid something which I don't believe to be correct. I can and do, however, respect your right to believe differently.

erm, the fact that God is not locking his door

Then why the need for keys to the Kingdom?

however, not everybody in this world has read about and accepted jesus's offer of salvation on the cross, so not EVERYBODY has accepted their keys

He gave the keys to Peter. You are merely assuming that everyone who has "read about and accepted Jesus' offer of salvation on the cross" is also entitled to them. Can all Christians "bind in heaven that which they bind on earth"? I know I can't; I haven't been given the authority, and I know that this is an honor no one must take upon himself.

i said that the keys are bestowed onto all members of the christian brotherhood, i did not say everyone in the entire world because i do not believe EVERYONE to have the authority, i believe everyone WHO IS A CHRISTIAN has the authority, as i believe we who are all christians have been called by christ - thus he has chosen us! by us accepting God and Christ, we have accepted our keys to heaven and the power within it, including the power to bring and baptise others into faith aswell.

Well then, we appear to be at an impasse.

Kathryn

My belief in this does not in any way say that everyone is worthy of salvation, nor undermine the salvation of others, and is a perfectly valid belief based upon scripture, just like yours is

C_P[/QUOTE]

 

[Dentonz]

He gave the keys to Peter. You are merely assuming that everyone who has "read about and accepted Jesus' offer of salvation on the cross" is also entitled to them. Can all Christians "bind in heaven that which they bind on earth"? I know I can't; I haven't been given the authority, and I know that this is an honor no one must take upon himself.


C_P

[/QUOTE]

It can be interpreted in Matt 16 that Jesus is talking just to Peter when he says the bind on earth and heaven speech. But in Matt 18: 18-20 it is clear that Jesus was talking to the disciples and the group surrounding him. He says "whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven"..
"if two of you shall agree as touching anything that they ask, it shall be done for them of my father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them."
Jesus said in Mark 16:17,18 "these things shall follow them that believe; in my name they will cast out devils; they will speak with new tounges; they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."
At the end of Luke Jesus tells them to tarry in the city until they be endued with power from on high. Acts 1 he tell them they will be baptized in the Holy Ghost and they will receive power when the Holy Ghost comes upon them. In chapter 2 there were 120 in the upper room that received the power. Later on in acts there are thousands baptized in the Holy Ghost. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is still real today. These signs still follow them that believe. All power in heaven and earth is given to the name of Jesus.